UPDATE: WE ARE LIVE !!! - Office Lobby Shelf Layout

Fridge56Vet posted:

Thanks, Mark.  BTW - I enjoy monitoring your progress on the Blackwater Canyon Line.  Good luck on the expansion!

You’re welcome!  I’m glad you enjoy the Blackwater Canyon Line.  I hope to have more action in the near future!

Began measuring & cutting the 8x4s for the ends of the layout today!  Discovered that the room is, of course, not perfectly square as we'll have up to 1/2" gap depending on the corner.   We determined that we wanted the center rail of the office side (vs. front door side) to be a good 3.5" from the wall, which would allow clearance of the girder bridge past the trim of the Dutch door. 

We also calculated for 3.5" center rail to end wall at the apex of the curves.  We then drew an arc with a radius consistent with an additional 3.5" from center rail (7" from wall) along the inside of the curve.  There will be about 4" straight track entering that 8x4 plywood piece before the curve & we measured accordingly. 

As I do not have the #4 turnouts yet I was unsure exactly how much shelf I wanted to leave on the front door side.  I kept it simple & just finished the arc 180 degrees, knowing I can trim more precisely once I get the remaining pieces in stock.  At about $55/sheet I'd rather be safe than sorry - can always cut more later. 

I'm also happy to report that it seems I'll have plenty of structural rigidity in the open corners, at least based on a quick wiggle test.  I'm pretty sure I'll use thick metal brackets mounted vertically above the shelf.  Not sure I have the cojones to mount the plywood to the bottom of the brackets, though.  Will probably top mount & anchor w/screw & washer or bolt & washer. 

Also, I decided to not bother with the spurs after seeing the plywood sheet tentatively placed up high.  There's no way to easily access back there & you can't really see anything anyhow.  I'll keep the siding but will otherwise stick with my original plan of placing lighted buildings on top of 1" or so foam sheeting & decorating for the season.  I've already got the north pole station on order, which will probably go in the lower right corner.

Thanks again to all who follow my progress and as always, any comments or suggestions are appreciated.

- Neal

Neal,  Looks like you are planning very well!

Finally getting back on track (I know, bad pun) with respect to the layout.  We got Grandma moved into the assisted living facility in Septmeber and now I've got all the track pieces I'll need.  I have tentatively tacked them to the layout with 1" brads to make the final cut-downs on the 4'x8' end pieces.  Then we can route an edge onto the boards, prime, paint, and mount. 

I managed to find an assortment of brackets at Lowe's that should do the trick.  They're about 1/4" thick steel with 6", 8", and 10" arms with several pre-drilled screw/bolt holes, respectively. 

I believe this should provide enough stability, even in the corners, especially if all holes are utilized.  I plan on using 1" long #12 screws to come up from under the horizontal arm of the bracket into the plywood for the hole(s) away from the wall, and using a bolt up through with a lock washer & hex nut on top for the hole closest to the wall.  I'll use 3" #12 screws through the vertical arm of the bracket to anchor into the studs.  If I need additional support between the studs I could always use extra-heavy duty wall anchors and additional brackets. 

If anyone sees any red flags with this, please let me know BEFORE I start drilling in the coming weeks.     Thanks again!

- Neal

All that should work great, Neal!

Fridge56Vet posted:

Finally getting back on track (I know, bad pun) with respect to the layout.  We got Grandma moved into the assisted living facility in Septmeber and now I've got all the track pieces I'll need.  I have tentatively tacked them to the layout with 1" brads to make the final cut-downs on the 4'x8' end pieces.  Then we can route an edge onto the boards, prime, paint, and mount. 

I managed to find an assortment of brackets at Lowe's that should do the trick.  They're about 1/4" thick steel with 6", 8", and 10" arms with several pre-drilled screw/bolt holes, respectively. 

I believe this should provide enough stability, even in the corners, especially if all holes are utilized.  I plan on using 1" long #12 screws to come up from under the horizontal arm of the bracket into the plywood for the hole(s) away from the wall, and using a bolt up through with a lock washer & hex nut on top for the hole closest to the wall.  I'll use 3" #12 screws through the vertical arm of the bracket to anchor into the studs.  If I need additional support between the studs I could always use extra-heavy duty wall anchors and additional brackets. 

If anyone sees any red flags with this, please let me know BEFORE I start drilling in the coming weeks.     Thanks again!

- Neal

 

Those brackets won't support a lot of weight - in this application, I think they will be prone to bending unless you use a lot of them - like about 6" apart.  IMO, stamped shelf brackets, while not particularly attractive, would be less likely to bend.  Or, make some wooden supports. 

Here is what I used on 12" shelves.

Here is what I used on 15" shelves.

Neal:  That should work well.  I love shelf layouts.  Here are some additional ideas to consider....

These are 6 X 6 brackets from Lowes.  VERY heavy duty.  You can see the small brackets that add additional support.  On each 10 x 8 board, I used two large brackets and one or two smaller brackets.  Use as few screws as you can.  I only put two apiece in each bracket.  It's been up there four years and not a budge.  Also, If you can dowel them into each other, that makes the whole shelf a LOT stronger.  None, of the many boards, are glued.  That also means it will be simple to take it down, if such an abhorrence should occur!!

By the way, this is a 12 X 12 board, because I wanted a long spur to go into a small yard at the back of the layout.  It's the only one of that size.  You can see the roadbed that cuts down the noise and vibration.  Also, it sounds really cool hearing those trains just rolling along over those tracks, roadbed, and boards.

Think about backdrops.  Also, lighting.  These rope lights can't be seen from below, give a pleasing striated effect on the backdrops, and are simply plugged into a regular 110V outlet.

I see you are laying your track on the shelves before you put them up.  IMO, that's the way to go.  All spurs, and yards should be pre-wired and tested, especially any switches and controllers.  Saves you a lot of grief.

I hung the doweled boards from above.   Each board was stained, sealed, and sanded multiple times.  Regardless of color or arrangement, it should look like part of the wall or furniture, from below.  There are no brackets, wires, or accessories, visible from below.  The height of your shelves will hide all your wiring, lighting, and other things you add.

It looks like you will have space, in the corners, to add some structures.

I consider this borrowed tool, essential to the overall strength of my shelf layout.  I used 1/4 inch dowels, with 3/4 inch pine shelves.

Here is one example of the overall effect of all that work...

I hope some of these pics will give you some ideas that will help you complete your project.  Feel free to comment or ask questions.  Don't forget to take lots of pics, and keep us posted on the forum.

Jerry

Neal, Jerry did the same as I did, but his looks much neater because I was concerned about not having metal underneath the boards.  His boards look better than mine too.  I wasn't as concerned because mine is in a rather tacky room to begin with.  

I plan to do like Jerry suggested in putting in a backdrop and that rope lighting would make a big improvement also. 

Too many projects, too little time and money.  Actually, this is a pretty low cost project.  

Jerry :  Thank you very much for sharing.  Yours was one of the layouts I'd found in an older thread when I was just starting to kick around this idea.  Those look like the brackets I've bought - I got not only 6x6 but also 8x8 & 10x10 to use in the corners.  planning on using the longest length possible mounted into each stud.  Not sure I have the stones to under-mount the shelf to the brackets, though it's tempting for aesthetic reasons.  I'm trying to avoid having much underneath the shelf.  What kind of screws did you use?  Everything shelf-wise is going to be painted the dark grey seen earlier in the thread. 

Using FlexxBed under the track to help with noise.  I chose ScaleTrax for the solid rail to help with this too.  The track pictured is only there temporarily for measurements before the final cut.  I'll jigsaw the final edge, then use the one 4x8 sheet as a stencil for the other.  I'll definitely toke your advise & get the worst of the track laying & wiring done before mounting the shelves. 

Also, I think I'll just use molding on the inner edge rather than trying to use the router.  That should mask small variations in curve from the jigsaw.  Also an excuse to use the nail gun I got for Christmas last year.  (Would be good practice for the crown molding at home that I promised the wife....)  Could then fill any gaps, sand, & paint.  Assuming I can get the molding to bend to a 6.5' diameter, at least.  If I do mount the shelving underneath the brackets I could also use some to mask the gap between the wall & shelf. 

Well, I should probably get to bed. Thanks again for all the advice, photos, etc.  I'll keep you guys posted.

- Neal

Neal:  Since I used 3/4 inch boards, I bought the thickest 1/2 inch screws I could find that fit the 6 inch brackets.  The smaller brackets (4 inch) come in their own plastic bag and have the proper screws to fit. 

Mine is 35 feet on either side, plus another 15 feet across, making it 100 feet of track, times two.  That's a lot of board weight to support, and that's why I doweled everything.  If you pull down on it, it will bend.  That's a good thing.  I also have four engines and nearly 100 cars up there.  They really don't weigh that much, and the boards never bend with their passing.  If I ever find a weakness, I can pull down the backdrop and add another bracket.  I hung the backdrop with velcro for two reasons:  First, you can't nail it, and glue is out of the question because it would ruin the surface of the beam boxes.  Second, in case I need to add a bracket, it's easy to get access to the wood.

I thought about adding molding for the outer edge.  The inner can't be seen due to the height of the shelves and the backdrop.  I decided against it.  First, it would be VERY tough to bend it through the corners.  Second, any molding would have as many seams as it would cover.  I like the look of the natural wood, and the shelves were stained and sealed to match the boxed beams they're attached to.  Finally, when the painting is done, shoot the artist.  Constant tinkering with the shelves would probably ruin them, in my case. 

Good luck and keep us posted.

Jerry

Jerry:   Thanks.  How tight are your corner curves?  Mine will be O80, and I have a thing for larger articulated locomotives.  Do you still think I'll be ok even with 10" brackets, then?  Planning on having one in each stud, which should be 16" on center.  I've never doweled anything before but will look into that.  I'm using 3/4" birch plywood as opposed to solid board, would that make a difference?  Looking for one locally.  I assume you used wood dowels?

- Neal  

Neal:  My curves are all slightly different.  Most are between 050 and 060, but there are a few near 045.  It's all flextrack with gargraves screws.  080 should be fine for your big engines, but make sure you check their ratings if you put any monsters up there.  I don't have any large engines because mine is double-tracked and those long Superliners (or long engines) would have trouble clearing the consists on the opposite main, when into a curve.

For your brackets, I would check to see if you can bend them with your hands.  If so, I recommend you exchange them for something thicker.

This is the first 8X10 I ever put up there.  It was a test for overall strength.  I even took a hammer to the thick brackets to see if I could bend one before I screwed it to the board.  This board convinced me I had enough support for the whole project.  You can see there are only four brackets holding it up, two big and two small.

Putting a bracket that won't bend on every 16 should give you plenty of support.  Your other ideas about additional support should solve any issues that come up.  Plywood is fine, most guys use plywood on their layouts.  I couldn't because it had to match what was already there, and I like the look of the stained and sealed boards.  I put a lot of time into each one, sanding and sealing three times.  Oh, yeah, since this is my basement, I make sure the dehumidifier is running, spring, summer, and fall.

This pic shows one way to put things together.  You can't dowel perpendicular boards at both ends, so you fasten one end with these small connectors.  You can also see the large bracket coming under the roadbed, and the gaps in the roadbed for that bracket and the next board.   I glued the roadbed to each board, and screwed down as much track as I could before putting it up.  Pre-drill the ties where screws will go, slide the connecting track together, then use a short handled driver to put them through the roadbed and into the wood.  In my case, I only have 7 1/2 inches to work with up there.

Yeah, I'd never doweled anything either.  You need that doweling tool.  You'll find packets of dowels where you buy your wood.  I recommend 1/4 inch by 1 inch.  Three dowels in each board.  Not only does it add overall strength, your pieces should fit together perfectly with no sagging edges between boards.

Sounds like you're about to have a great experience doing this project.  Looking forward to seeing it....

Jerry

Jerry:  Thanks again.  Bracket strength should be fine - no way I can bend. Was more worried about plywood sag in the corners where the edge of the board will be well away from the edge of even a 10" bracket.  Guess there's only 1 way to find out....

- Neal

Neal, don't worry about that.  Even if you don't dowel, you can use those small metal connectors to correct any sagging in the corners.  Since those long brackets won't bend, and you're 1 on 16, you should have no issues.

Looking forward to it...

Jerry

Jerry:  Good to know.  Don't forget, though, that the plywood will be unsupported for roughly a 4' span on the single rail half of the short ends (hallway beneath).  Though I suppose I could run a 2" plywood strip perpendicular to the main board under & along the back edge.  That's what I plan to do to reinforce the plywood for the bridge span.  

Also - is there a specific reason for using fewer, rather than more, screws? I'm a doctor, not an engineer....  😜

Thanks again for the input and photos!

- Neal

Neal, haha, yeah.  Less holes in the wood!!  At some point, someone in your life, or after it, may want to take it down.  I quickly found that each bracket only needed two screws, not three.

Also, my daughter is a doctor and the only engineering I know about comes with a funny hat....

Jerry

Jerry:  Indeed. Just wanted to make sure there wasn't a structural reason for less screws.  The 10" brackets can accommodate 5 screws.

Dodged a bullet this week re: plywood   the garage roof has apparently developed 3 leaks - right over where I was storing the wood.  Thankfully most of the water hit the cutout "scrap" pieces & while water had absorbed there is no major delamination.  Only trouble spot I see on the actual shelf wood is about a 3/4" spot of bubbling way back in a corner out of view.  Got all pieces vertically stored & the tops covered w/some old plastic, just in case.

- Neal

Wow Neal!  That was close!

Neal:

Your project is an inspiration to me and other hobbyists who have filled-up the platform space of a layout resting on legs or sawhorses in the train room. Perhaps the easiest way to expand is to "build upward" with a ceiling-hugging, shelf-mounted route. 

I initially planned a shelf-mounted "pretzel" route with computer-based track software for my L-shaped train room (16x19 feet), but I soon met real-world obstacles:  a downward projecting, load-bearing support beam at the angle of the "L" that shouldn't be notch-cut (for fear of bringing down the ceiling), and walls of different materials -- two brick walls and two stud walls covered with paneling.  Further, installing a ceiling-mounting train shelf around the perimeter of the train room would be blocked by the layout already in place in that room.  A classic case of "building a boat in the basement before realizing there's no doorway to get it out of there." 

I liked the idea mentioned in this posting about installing "plain Jane"metal L-brackets to the wall - showing its vertical leg on the wall above the shelf with its horizontal leg on the wall underneath the shelf; along with crown moulding underneath the shelf for a "finished" look. The moulding would have some additional (but not a lot of) shelf support - mostly a touch of elegance.

Keep posting info gathered along your "learning curve" for the benefit of others!

Mike Mottler    (ritrainguy)
mottlerm@gmail.com

After a crazy Thanksgiving week I was able to get the final cuts done on the end pieces.  I used a tip my dad got regarding fine cutting nice plywood.  After making your line in pencil, cover on both sides with masking tape to keep the edge from fraying, even with a high-quality finish blade.  I must say it worked rather well & got nice, clean cuts. Now to measure & cut the straights and then on to sanding, priming, & painting.

The curved cut looks great!  That is a great tip about the masking tape!! 

Almost forgot to cut the notches to go around the front window trim.  Also got the edges sanded down.  Should be ready for priming!

Lots of progress this past Wednesday as Dad was able to come by & lend a hand.  Lots of priming & panting got done on the end pieces and also the front straight board over the entrance.  Also got a coat of the grey paint on the one side of the ends. 

I also messed around with the dowelling jig I bought at Home Depot.  Was the only one in stock & was back by the wood trim, not the tools.  Seems to work pretty well.  Came with 3 different bit diameters, guides, & bump stops.  It's pretty simple.  Use the guide & jig to figure out how deep your hole needs to be, then clamp the stop to the bit.  Take the jig & clamp the edge where you want to make the hole (remember - measure 2x 1st...), screw in the appropriate guide (easier to see your mark if you unscrew the guide after measuring depth), and drill.  I found I needed to jiggle the bit a little to make the hole large enough to fit the dowel in to the half way point.  I only did the one end board.  I'll see how challenging it is to line up the holes later. 

The one board we didn't have time to do much on is the back straight over the reception station.  I will need to cut this down to the width of the bridge base (~3 & 3/16"), as well as the width of the doorway & trim on the back side.  then it can be primed & painted.  I will add a 2" plywood strip perpendicularly along the midline underneath this board for structural rigidity as well as a place to mount the electronics for the bridge sections that come housed in the pylons. 

Finally, we did get a few brackets mounted.  Pleased w/the security of the ones we have so far, so I'll probably go every other stud, as convenient.  May also have to use some of the large, screw in 50# drywall anchors just to keep it from sagging in one or 2 corners that don't line up with a stud.

There's an outside chance I'll get more stuff done Sunday, but probably not.  We'll definitely have to mount the power brick, TIU, & Legacy base in the equipment closet.  Unfortunately, there's no outlet in there (it's actually the bathroom we don't use, converted to storage).  I'm planning on running a heavy duty extension cord from the one below the large bracket in the picture above through the ceiling & down to the shelf that will be above the toilet.  I can then run wire back out to that corner of the layout, where the DCS WiFi, AIU, & a terminal block will be.  The cord will be masked on the lobby side by one of those stick-on cable bundlers they use for hiding Ethernet cable, etc.  That should keep kids from tugging on it or it generally getting caught.  The outlet is behind a bench, which ought to prevent further interference. 

Thanks again for all the interest in this build.  As always, thoughts & suggestions are appreciated.  If I don't post before, everyone have a very Merry Christmas & a Happy New Year!

- Neal 

Neal, nice post.  Interesting way to do the dowels.  Hope they line up OK.

That bridge is MTH?  Pretty awesome, pretty big!  I used two old Lionel girder bridges on my table layout, for the upper level.  Too high for those plastic pylons, so I used a 3 inch basswood plank underneath them for support.  Works fine, no sagging at all.  I'd be really interested to see that baby up there, and how you mount it.  Also, those boards and brackets.

Jerry

That's a lot of nice work!  It will be a wonderful looking shelf layout!

Mark - Thanks!

Jerry - Yes, it's the MTH red arch bridge, with two 10" extensions.  And, of course, the mirco LED Christmas Lights.  Unfortunately, they won't get to be used this year.

After a long hiatus I have news to report on the lobby layout project!  Finally able to get back to work after what's been a crazy 2019 so far.  Now the final push to have the layout operational by Christmas.

Had the electrician install outlets into the second bathroom/storage room, as well as a pass-through for wiring, while here to install some additional ceiling lighting at the office.  Gave it a nice, finished look on the lobby side.  I've also installed 1 of 2 shelves beneath installed to hold the electronics (not pictured).

Got all the brackets up & the boards fitted into place ok.  Had to do a little trimming but everything lined up pretty well.  Very solid.  Ended up not using the dowling & simply installing a 2nd bracket near the other side of the joint (there are only 4 sections to the shelf).  The plan was to take it down & lay roadbed, track, & wire on the ground.  Unfortunately, the end pieces are especially difficult to fit as the walls aren't quite plumb.   Therefore, it looks like I'll be on the ladder next week. Good thing I'm tall & have long arms. 

Finally, I was able to mount the bridge to the board spanning the doorway to the reception desk.  Looks good, now just need to wire.  It looks like I'm maybe a circuit board short on the main arch section?  Only 1 present in the pylons included, has 1 plug socket, but there are 3 plugs for the bridge lights.  Would be very appreciative of anyone w/experience w/the MTH Christmas light bridge that can help.  The boards from the extensions look ok.  

Well, that's it for now.  Hopefully more to report after Thanksgiving weekend!

- Neal

Neal, everything is looking great!  My corners were tricky, but since the room has dark paneling, it wasn’t worth it to me to spend any more time with my head crammed up against the ceiling than I had to.  Your light walls and shelves would show everything.  The bridge looks great as well 

Neal, the office looks great.  The boards look good up there, and the bridge is definitely awesome!

I have zero knowledge of the bridge and how the lights are connected.  I'm interested to see how you wire the layout and where your control and power panels connect.  Will you add backdrops?  More lights?  Have you decided what tracks and trains are going up there?

Here is a possible car for the office.  It's called Hunting Rabbit Season, Lionel 6-84798.  Also, it's mechanical, no track power required.  A really basic car but, everybody loves it, especially the little ones.

Looking forward to seeing your progress.  Happy Thanksgiving.

Jerry

Jerry, that is a neat car!!

So...after checking the instruction manual for the bridge, it seems I am indeed missing the plug.  I can't imagine I removed it & set it somewhere away from the bridge parts.  Will call MTH & order a new one.

Have begun temporarily tacking track down to check fitment & position.  Will then mark so I can lay down roadbed. The shelf boards are only attached w/a sg. screw at this point in case any movement is needed; the leveling issues should be improved if not fixed when all screws are in place.

Will keep you posted!

- Neal

Got the track fitted & marked this week - now to lay down the roadbed (Flexxbed).  Before doing so I decided to double-check my clearances under the exit sign - had nearly 1.5" - more than enough once the roadbed is in. 

One issue to resolve is the height of the bridge above the main board.  Fortunately, I had accidentally ordered some of the shorter height roadbed after I realized the initial order may not be enough. 

A pair of shims at each end made up the rest of the height difference nicely, and with a nice, easy grade at that!

Hoping to get the track in place & wired by the end of next week!  Will be crazy but so far looking good to be operational before Christmas!

- Neal

The clearance looks good, Clarence!!  If nothing else comes up you should have plenty of time!

Haha, Mark meant Neal.  Clarence is doing another ceiling layout, and we've been trying to help him.

Track looking good, bridge remains very cool.  An inch and a half is lots of room.

Jerry

JerryG posted:

Haha, Mark meant Neal.  Clarence is doing another ceiling layout, and we've been trying to help him.

Track looking good, bridge remains very cool.  An inch and a half is lots of room.

Jerry

I thought it was an Airplane reference....

Have the Outer Loop fit, Flexxbed in place, & ready to finish nailing the track down.  Inner "siding" - though it will likely be the main line - needs some custom fitting but then should be good to go. 

Hoping to have wired in next few days & running trains this coming week! 

- Neal 

P.S. - The wife's been decorating the lobby and I scaled the ladder again to hang lights outside, so we should have some very festive photos when all is done! 

Neal, I’m looking forward to seeing the upcoming photographs!

Last night my father & I got the outer loop of track set in place & the basic wiring finished.  Able to position the WiFi  unit on the shelf ouside, with the TIU & AIU to be eventually wall-mounted in the closet/bathroom.  That should leave room for the LEGACY unit on the shelf.  Left wires long for now; they can be trimmed once final positions for everything are determined. 

Dad screwed in the eye lag screws - hard to find & larger than I would have preferred, but they should work fine.  Will run wire (or perhaps 20# test fishing line) for a safety barrier should a derailment occur.

The initial electrical test was a success!  MTH DCS Wifi worked as expected.  After an initial test lap w/my Cleveland Union Terminal GP-9 we performed a clearance test with the CP Holiday Train.  One of the eye lag screws needed to be repositioned at an angle for clearance, but that easily fixed the problem.  May need to reposition a few more screws when I run 21" passenger cars, but so far so good.  Still have yet to finish fitting the inner track, which will eventually be the main line, as well as wire the switches & some buildings. 

I will keep you posted on my progress, & I hope to have some more pics & maybe a video or two up soon!  Take care & Merry Christmas to all! 

- Neal

Great progress, Neal!