OGR Run 298, Future of Model Train Control

Ah, ha!!  Leave it to you Max!!  Pretty cool indeed!  

I will watch the rest of the video later, but I am sure it is well done like all your videos!  

Thanks to OGR for the article.  I know, many folks will be negative about another new idea and technology, and I may never embrace that one myself; but who knows.....

Ive seen some good video of fellow modelers using Alexa to power their trains and lights.   I think it is great and it only a smart plug!  I see me getting one soon!  Wife wants one soooooo : ) 

Jim 

I've used Alexa, I like the concept, screen controls still  aren't reliable for me.

I'll likely stick with conventional though

Adriatic posted:

I've used Alexa, I like the concept, screen controls still  aren't reliable for me.

I'll likely stick with conventional though

I think I will stick with LC- LC+ stuff myself.  If they keep on moving forward with Bluetooth control with a remote or phone I think it is unstoppable !!! Alexa is cool to turn stuff on and off though lol 

Jim 

Max,

I really enjoyed your video, and seeing your layout. Great work! As an FYI, the Aerotrain was powered by a conventional diesel.

"Power was provided by an EMD 567C 12-cylinder engine which produced 1,200 hp (890 kW). The LWT12 was essentially an EMD SW1200 switcher locomotive, suitably geared for high-speed passenger rail service and wrapped in a distinctive aerodynamic shell."

Still, a great model and runner. I had one and sold it only because I am not modeling PRR. 

The jet powered locomotive was built by NYC. They called it the M-497 Black Beetle. It was a Budd car with a B-36 jet engine strapped on top. Lionel made a model of it. You may enjoy having one on your layout. It would be a neat companion for your Aerotrain

These high tech control goodies might be cool but over here the future of model train control is in the throttle (transformer handle). That's the way its done on real trains.

Most real trains are controlled and managed by computer/ fly by wire.  My friend rebuilds old engines and puts computer control in them off the old Southern main line in downtown Knoxville TN.  

Jim 

carsntrains posted:

Most real trains are controlled and managed by computer/ fly by wire.  My friend rebuilds old engines and puts computer control in them off the old Southern main line in downtown Knoxville TN.  

Jim 

Great point!  My former supervisor was let go from the telecom company when it was bought out in ‘07.  He got a communications engineering job at GE in Erie designing all that stuff.  His son-in-law was describing it to me at the time, and it was pretty high tech to say the least.  He offered for me to interview there, but I was promoted to engineer at the telecom company at the same time, and we didn’t want to move the 100 miles to Erie.  Actually we don’t want to get the snow off Lake Erie.  My guess is he is retiring now since he is a year older than me.

LOL everyone wanted a remote for TV's so they could sit in their chairs to change channels but when you can run your trains remotely, whoa it's a calamity to some.  I look forward to saying, "Alexa start up main one," and watching the look on my grandchildren's faces.  But for now I'll enjoy the remotes and the apps. 

I like the way you are thinking, Bill!

Gilly@N&W posted:

Max,

The jet powered locomotive was built by NYC. They called it the M-497 Black Beetle. It was a Budd car with a B-36 jet engine strapped on top. Lionel made a model of it. You may enjoy having one on your layout. It would be a neat companion for your Aerotrain

 

The M-497 was a test bed only, not a locomotive.  It could not go in reverse and had to be towed back to the test's starting point by a GP:

The wheels were also turned to a flat profile and was tested only on straight track.

After the tests in 1966, the M-497 was returned to its RDC-3 passenger configuration, used in service on the Penn Central, sold to the MTA for parts and eventually scrapped in 1984.

The jet engine went to NYC's jet- powered snowblower:

Rusty

That was fun!  I enjoy your enthusiasm Max.  Don't EVER let anyone mess that up for you!

Ditto on what Marty just said, Max!!

There is always room in this hobby, and in all areas of life for that matter, for new and innovative ideas!!  

I was happy to run into you at York, last October!!  

Max, great video as always.  You've made a lot of nice progress!  

The choice of control system, integrating a 'smart' assistant, or controlling a layout 100% by a software program doesn't really matter as long as the end goal is the same - running some trains!

Admittedly, I'm skeptical of Alexa/Echo, Google Home, etc. - not because of the cool stuff it can do, it was cool how you used it to turn on the layout, but because of privacy concerns.  

I do have privacy concerns (perhaps unfounded, I haven't really researched the smart speakers) and don't really like that a microphone connected to the internet is sitting next to me in the privacy of my home.  It's not that I'm concerned about anyone hearing the things I say, but as a principle I think it's important to maintain the privacy and freedom that so many people  fought and died for.  I'm sure there are other ways I've already lost personal privacy, but I don't like the idea of making it easier for companies or the government gathering information (without a warrant) on the people they serve. 

/end of rant

JD2035RR posted:

Admittedly, I'm skeptical of Alexa/Echo, Google Home, etc. - not because of the cool stuff it can do, it was cool how you used it to turn on the layout, but because of privacy concerns. 

Actually, that may be a legitimate concern since a number of reports have indicated that Alexa/Siri/etc. can access things even in a passive mode (when turned off). Can't say that's true, or not true, because I don't have either of those fine "ladies" in my own home at the present time, but I'm comfortable controlling any trains here by myself with the tap of a button or two, be it on a hand-held controller or a screen.

I am too old school to need an expensive computer to turn on a $2 light switch, and I have no desire to be kept track of. 

I had no problem turning a dial or pressing a button to get a TV channel (when I had TV), and I really deplore the fact that people don't even get up to do that little bit of work nowadays.  I do everything I can to keep myself OFF the couch, not on it.  I would pay extra for a TV and a tape/disc player that did NOT have a remote but was controlled from the front panel.

But I am hardly the Target Demographic of the current generation of electronic geegaws (I am only 53, mind you), and I wish I could say that my desire to stay active was fulfilled by my desk job, but it's not.

Hmmm...

Imagine a large model railroad with a fully functional signal system.

You follow your train around the room, and as it approaches each signal you say the indication aloud (as they do in the cab of the real train, if I am not mistaken).

"Approach Diverging". Your train slows to 35 smph as it prepares to take the diverging route at the next switch.

Once though the switch, you see another signal...

"Approach clear fifty". Your train accelerates to 50 smph, and on you go.

Yes Nickaix, I can envision that.  

For those who rather just run conventional or push buttons on a remote, I am with you!  For those who think ahead, there are always more possibilities!

MAX,

  You are doing a great job on the layout.  Keep up the good work and videos.

Allan Miller posted:

JD2035RR posted:

Admittedly, I'm skeptical of Alexa/Echo, Google Home, etc. - not because of the cool stuff it can do, it was cool how you used it to turn on the layout, but because of privacy concerns. 

Actually, that may be a legitimate concern since a number of reports have indicated that Alexa/Siri/etc. can access things even in a passive mode (when turned off). Can't say that's true, or not true, because I don't have either of those fine "ladies" in my own home at the present time, but I'm comfortable controlling any trains here by myself with the tap of a button or two, be it on a hand-held controller or a screen.

Alan, do they "hear" everything all the time?  I've ridden in vehicles where the voice recognition is so bad you'd think their competition wrote the software.

Excellent video, Max. Your layout is really coming along well. I enjoyed your review of the GM Aerotrain. Back in 1955 or so, they exhibited the real thing in Chicago, and my father took me downtown to see it. I was 6 or so, but I remember being so impressed by it, especially that front end. Later I saw it operate in commuter service on the Rock Island....never got to ride it, though. 

As for Alexa, its cool to have it operate on the layout, and its functionality will increase as time goes on. However,if it gets to the point that it starts running your layout without your input or presence, I would draw the line. After all, I have seen Battlestar Galactica, and I know what runaway AI can do. 

Great video Max. I may be getting an Alexa to start up my trains, very nice idea and my grandson would love it! It is all the new technologies that got me back into the hobby. I think it's great! Keep up the interest and the latest in 'train technology'!

And, I don't think we need to start worrying about the se new tech gadgets until Alexa starts turning on things and running trains by herself without being told. Then we might want to start worrying a little and may have to rename her HAL! At least make sure we can unplug her!!

rtr12 posted:

Great video Max. I may be getting an Alexa to start up my trains, very nice idea and my grandson would love it! It is all the new technologies that got me back into the hobby. I think it's great! Keep up the interest and the latest in 'train technology'!

And, I don't think we need to start worrying about the se new tech gadgets until Alexa starts turning on things and running trains by herself without being told. Then we might want to start worrying a little and may have to rename her HAL! At least make sure we can unplug her!!

I'd be really worried if she told me to turn off the trains and get back to the honey-do list!

rtr12 posted:

Great video Max. I may be getting an Alexa to start up my trains, very nice idea and my grandson would love it! It is all the new technologies that got me back into the hobby. I think it's great! Keep up the interest and the latest in 'train technology'!

And, I don't think we need to start worrying about the se new tech gadgets until Alexa starts turning on things and running trains by herself without being told. Then we might want to start worrying a little and may have to rename her HAL! At least make sure we can unplug her!!

I wouldn't worry about HAL:

Rusty

I read the article and while it was interesting, it didn't seem particularly an earth shattering view of the future. For example, lionel or mth could modify their existing controllers to handle voice recognition, the technology is not exactly rocket science, users might have to use canned phrases to do things "make engine X speed Y", "change switch 2 divurging", "ring bell engine 6", etc, but it isn't particularly state of the art. 

Personally I would love to see an RC system like LC+ that can have a universal controller (yeah, the one they sell is nice, but only can control 3 engines), having an LC+ control that allows you to program in engines would get rid of the TIU's and the like, the wiring, it would be true wireless control and would't have to worry about ground plane issues, signal strength through the rails and the like, and you could program in up to X engines, the same as you do with Legacy and DCS today. Also would mean them needing to sell a lot less hardware, so likely would be less lucrative, hence I think LC+ is kind of like what IBM used to do with computers, when you wanted a more powerful system you had to upgrade not only the hardware but all the software, too, LC+ is limited, and if you want more functionality, you have to buy a Legacy base, track unit and so forth. 

If Alexia could change traction tires I might consider it.

Bill

It's been done before.

Yep, as Joe pointed out, it has been done in the analog past.  Sometimes old things are new, again.......   I haven't ever hooked it up and tried it, prefer the Command Control and conventional, myself.  But, when it gets to the point of removal of the "interaction" between trains and the operator, that is where we need to perhaps reconsider.  The use of Alexis may be a good curiosity, but IMHO, perhaps no more than that.  Even when Neil Young developed the train control system for his disabled son to run the trains, he still maintained an amount of interaction.  This, of course, was developed into Command Control.

Jesse   TCA

And we all remember Skynet, right?

If Colossus was bad (great reference, Rusty Traque), Skynet was worse.

AmeenTrainGuy posted:

... then when it is done it will stop and start doing layout maintenance and building trees and finishing up your layout. 

When you get to be my age you will be much more appreciative of this one. Especially the wiring below the layout!! 

JD2035RR posted:

I'd be really worried if she told me to turn off the trains and get back to the honey-do list!

 This is definitely worrisome and cause for alarm!!

Rusty Traque,

I have never seen that one, I'll have to watch the entire film one of these days. Looks like something I would like. 

I can't even get Siri to delete my emails, she told me she isn't allowed to do that! Good grief, I have to do it manually and there is no longer a 'Delete All'. I have found a work around, that is until they 'enhance' that feature as well.

I actually think sitting in a nice comfortable chair with a nice hot or cold beverage of choice and watching a robot build my layout would be quite fun. My back would certainly appreciate it! Again, things change a lot with age!! I do agree on the medical innovations though. We have a long way to go in that area. 

I can lay my sons smart phone on the table.  Nothing on but the power.  Sit and talk about .. tool boxes.   pick it up and hit the internet and all the adds are .. tool boxes.   In a simpler matter.   Search the internet for paint.   WOW now all the adds are about paint.   I notice this 2 years ago when I searched "Christmas tree cords).   Didn't search anything else for a few days and all the page adds and side adds were for Christmas tree cords.    All cars with electronics have a locating device built into the computer. If someone steals your car they WILL NOT use it to locate your car. If you are suspected of a serious crime, they will use it.   I noticed this when a guy on the west coast shot some folks including a police officer.  Once they figured out who the shooter was they located the car he was driving in less than an hour.  In the forest in Washington state!   

Jim 

And the couple of posts just prior to this bring up a good point.  With the sharing of data already taking place in our "web world",  are we certain we want the size, location, times used/room occupied placed "out there" without us, owners and operators, having any say in it?  Are there not enough hackers and internet perverts in the world who may be interested in knowing, or selling, info and specs on the market concerning our layouts and/or collections.  Being here on the Forum is one thing, we have a choice in it and pertinent control.  But, if and when it may be broadcast without our knowledge and permission..........    Can really get one to thinking about just how far you may wish to go.

Jesse     TCA

TERMINATOR XXI????????

Not to totally derail this thread any more than it already has, but I think it is relevant if we are talking about using these smart devices to control our layouts. 

Many phone applications make you sign their terms of agreement (that virtually no one reads).  Often times, you are allowing the application to have access to your microphone and allow the app/company to gather voice data at any time.  The Facebook app is one of them - like Jim mentioned above, it picks up keywords like "toolbox" and the next thing you know you are getting ads and emails about toolbox sales.  

You can usually turn these "features" off, but you have to go out of your way to do it.  They bank on people maintaining the default settings, either because the user doesn't know, doesn't care, or doesn't know how to manually shut these "features" off. I have totally disabled my microphone for anything except phone calls.  Siri was never very helpful anyway

The technology itself isn't inherently good or bad, it is just a tool.  The tool can be used for really innovative purposes, but in the wrong hands it could certainly be used for nefarious purposes.

When applying new technology for any use, but also for our little railroads, we need to ask ourselves, "Is this really a change for the better or is it a change just for the sake of change?" You must also weigh what you are giving up as a result of the use of technology that uses so much personal data.  There are smart thermostats (connected to wifi) that know your work schedule, when you typically leave, when you typically arrive, etc. so it can adjust the temperature to conserve energy.  Noble purpose, cool technology, but wouldn't a burglar love to know that information as well? 

Maybe, I'm just getting old - I am getting into my third decade now.

"There is always room in this hobby, and in all areas of life for that matter, for new and innovative ideas!!"

That is half the equation; the other half is having the wisdom and intelligence to know which of these things have value, have value for you, have no value, have no value for you, or harm the existing good. Neither blind acceptance nor blind rejection is a function of smarts.

"New" and "old" are value-neutral; most of us would not find much value in a "new" disease, or an "old" one, either.

Why all this? Because the "control" and "sound" systems are becoming the hobby. Model RR'ing is not a video game. It's mechanical. The only control systems that actually help are the ones to which you have to give almost no thought. In my case that is TMCC. It's intuitive, friendly, reliable.

When I saw my first Legacy CAB-2, I saw too many buttons and a multi-function screen. I don't need a screen - I can see my trains behavior.  I have never owned a CAB-2, nor do I plan to. That level of diddly has no value for me.

I'll stick with this Hi-Tech device! 

Max, thanks for the video the layout is coming along nicely!!

Doug

  The Clapper is what I thought of when I saw the PW Voice Command unit, it is basically the same tech. 

   I think one of the Marx tinplate switch towers had the same feature too, each loud command cycled power & e-unit. It didn't need to be the right command, just a percussive voice. 

  Can you change the A.I.  cue word and/or it's reply ?  I could see the voice recognition driving a person named Alex or Sarah nuts    

    I once had a "thinker box" set up for "Drunken Microsoft Anna" to assist you   The slow pace and resulting chuckle calmed you down, no rushing and making more dumb mistakes.  But now I kinda want to ask Lurch the butler for assistance running trains  Maybe Fester and Gomez too?  

    Don't cringe, it might be Charlie or Floyd of Pettycoat Junction too   or answer: "Yes Mr.West???" "Yes, Captian", "Yes your Highness", or teach it to swear like an old railhand 

    D500 nailed down something; " the hobby is becoming about the 'control' and 'sound' (systems)".      I'll counter with  life  is becoming about control and sound systems    

    For slightly different reasons, I will pay extra for an electromechanical basic control panel on a tv (vol.,channel, bright, etc.). Others hogging and then loosing tv remotes for me led to a hole in the side of my coffee table and a store anti-theft cable on each one. At least "smart ears" won't walk off and end up on the fridge behind the bread, in the garbage can, etc    

  How that relates is my train remote has been locked in place by copper cable the whole time and I'm just not sure were to drill the security cable hole in the new train remotes  

 Back to the Clapper based tech, my buddy had a test model car remote on his keys. Give a high pitched whistle, and they whistled back. It had an off switch but was rarely needed

  Maybe new tech needs to pass a "Jetson's test". 

 Used in a Jetson's cartoon;  if an idea seems absurd, it likely will be.