OH NOOOO ! The New Lionel Passenger cars are going to Thumb Tack style couplers too?

I wonder if Kadee mounts are on there ?      I use Kadee on freight but not passenger.

It appears the couplers mount to the car, not to the trucks. I suspect they did this for the Kadee lovers but the downside is everyone else has to live with the thumbtack or cut it off.

Pete

I doubt it Clem... would be so easy to include a Kadee pack with shims on these as well as the LIONSCALE  freight cars to delete the thumb tacks...

Just having a rough time getting over this one...

J Daddy posted:

Not ready to convert to Kadees on my passenger cars....

 

 

 

That's the problem. Ready or not it's time!

Even the first run of 21" cars had thumb tacks. As annoying as that is, there are three good things. 1.) There is a little plastic cap on the bottom to prevent a short from happening. 2.) There are (at least on this upcoming release, as not on the first) Kadee coupler mounting holes. 3.) Not many people running scale length cars have a 2.8% grade, or at least have the change from flat to incline gradual enough to avoid this.

As an aside for your Weaver cars, there are some brands of paint you can buy that are designed to be electrical insulators, so you could buy a bottle of black paint and put some on the bottom of your Weaver thumbtacks to fix that issue.

Thanks Will. Do you have a photo of the little plastic cap ? I guess that is good news.  You think the new Pass cars will have them too?

Where did you see the announcement that these will have Kadee coupler mounting holes... guess I missed that one. That does take some pain out of the modification.  Again that is great news !

Actually lots of people have LARGER than 2.8 percent grades on their "O scale / gauge layouts", the transition is the root cause and with my Atlas sectional track it one particular area it just makes it worse!   I tried the paint and black tape... worked great for a few laps and then it fails ... and you will know it when it fails, It only takes a slight kiss!

I don't have a picture but if you watch Eric's review of the ESE cars he shows it. I have no doubt they will include it on all runs of these cars. On page 49 it says the new baggage cars have scale coupler mounting pads so I am under the assumption that it applies to all of the cars as they don't have detailed descriptions of their features.

To clarify in the catalog ... it appears ONLY the 2 truck passenger cars are affected. It appears the 3 truck passenger cars will have the older style couplers... but not sure.

 So will some heavy weight car bodies have the molded in Kadee mounting points or maybe not? 

While that is possible, it is also very likely that it was just how the graphic designers made the images. The BNSF Tier IV set doesn't show a Tier IV GEVO, but rather a Tier III so you can never be sure. Best bet would be to ask during the Ryan and Dave show this afternoon.

Found it Will... good eye.  So I believe only the newly tooled cars will have this feature?... still not sure about the heavyweight cars.

Yeah I wouldn't hold my breath on the heavyweights. Of course there's always the route I went on my Atlas California Zephyr cars, your friendly neighborhood Dremel!

J Daddy posted:

I was taking a closer look at the catalog this morning and was crest fallen. The catalog shows even the 21 inch passenger cars are going to" Dumb"TACKS!

This means every car will either have to have its tack removed on my layout or the couplers replaced...

With a 2.8 percent grade weaver cars (about 20 inches long) with these tacks short on the center rail! That means I could be headed for trouble.

Have you guys noticed this?

Not ready to convert to Kadees on my passenger cars....

 

 

Haven't the 21" cars always had those thumbtacks? IIRC all the ones I've seen have them.

I too took a Dremel to my Weaver 21 inch cars for the same reason.

But more importantly, where is the existing batch of the 1st round of the new 21 inch cars, that were supposedly shipped from lionel over a week ago? Has any dealer or customer received their Amtrak, SP, or NYC ESE 2 cars yet??????????

How many times do you uncouple passenger car? I would just cut them off. Except for looks I don't think most people have a problem with them.

The next batch is supposedly on the water as of yesterday when Notch 6 interviewed Ryan. 

Well remember this, these are samples. There is a chance that they won’t be like this when they release them. Because these are artists renderings

The 21" passenger cars (including the new 18"  "21" passenger cars" like the baggage cars used for the Freedom train and Vision NYC car etc.) all have had the thumbtack couplers since their introduction. These are the kinematic coupler design with the coupler mounted on the body  to retract on straights for closer coupling so tabs are a must. Pads are provided to convert to Kadees.

The 18" heavyweight style cars use our existing trucks with truck mounted couplers. We are tooling new sideframes for the four axle cars so they won't be exactly like the artwork, but all of these can still use the original hidden uncoupling tabs.  So - clerestory roof = no tab.  Everything else = tabs and close coupling.  Hope that helps clear this up.

John try fingernail polish on the Weaver thumb tacks.

Lionel struck the appropriate balance in 1949 with the introduction magnetic plate for generic rolling stock (reserving the 1946 coil for exquisite locomotives and rolling stock). Heck, even low-cost Menards rolling stock uses hidden plates instead of terrible thumbtacks!

Conrail6358 posted:

The 21" passenger cars (including the new 18"  "21" passenger cars" like the baggage cars used for the Freedom train and Vision NYC car etc.) all have had the thumbtack couplers since their introduction. These are the kinematic coupler design with the coupler mounted on the body  to retract on straights for closer coupling so tabs are a must. Pads are provided to convert to Kadees.

The 18" heavyweight style cars use our existing trucks with truck mounted couplers. We are tooling new sideframes for the four axle cars so they won't be exactly like the artwork, but all of these can still use the original hidden uncoupling tabs.  So - clerestory roof = no tab.  Everything else = tabs and close coupling.  Hope that helps clear this up.

Thanks Ryan. 

Argh, anything but thumb tacks. It looks horrible especially on the high end stuff. Its just me, but I haven't used an uncoupling track in a long time so not sure how many folks appreciate having the option. 

Pete - I purchased the UP excursion set and did not notice the thumb tacks as a new feature being released .  So it will be my first experience with them.

I think it will  be either a love or hate thing. But the good news is the Kadee pads are molded in on the cars so I have a fall back plan...

Regarding the uncoupling disk (thumbtack), just take a dremel to them and your done. You can paint the cut area black if needed, but each car takes about 2 minutes. I did this on all my Golden Gate Depot cars and they do look better.

Charlie

I wouldn't worry much-you'll have at least a year before they're here to figure something out.  OK, maybe two years....haha!

I hope the Kadee pads are true.  Makes it easy to convert.

So if you cut them off, they look like the hidden tab ones, yet are able to be fixed with the simple rubberband trick, rather than the sliding bar ones which can only be glued shut when they malfunction. 

Maybe the suggestion for Lionel and Ryan is to make the tab screw in, rather than pressed/riveted in, so that it can just be unscrewed if you dont want it.... but that of course will cost $10 more per car, so they'll be hearing about that next...

I never understood why the thumbtack thing was always such a big deal. Just cut them off or drill them out.

Charlie posted:

Regarding the uncoupling disk (thumbtack), just take a dremel to them and your done. You can paint the cut area black if needed, but each car takes about 2 minutes. I did this on all my Golden Gate Depot cars and they do look better.

Charlie

Boilermaker1 posted:

So if you cut them off, they look like the hidden tab ones, yet are able to be fixed with the simple rubberband trick, rather than the sliding bar ones which can only be glued shut when they malfunction. 

Maybe the suggestion for Lionel and Ryan is to make the tab screw in, rather than pressed/riveted in, so that it can just be unscrewed if you dont want it.... but that of course will cost $10 more per car, so they'll be hearing about that next...

I never understood why the thumbtack thing was always such a big deal. Just cut them off or drill them out.

The desire here is to have traditional "hidden" magnetic plates or magnetic coil that Lionel pioneered in 1949 and 1946 respectively that offer ascetics AND functionality. Removing the eyesore without accounting for retaining functionality is not acceptable for my operations. One may argue that the kinematic feature may make engineering a hidden plate difficult, a coil coupler can definitely hang on the end of a kinematic stalk as a flexible wire or insulated spring contact allows for the necessary flexibility required for a kinematic scenario. $10 for coil couplers - I'd take that instead of an unscrewable thumbtack.

The thumbtack couplers worked maybe 50% on my layout. On the grades they often open up leaving me to tape or crazy clue the uncoupling mechanism in place.

"So if you cut them off, they look like the hidden tab ones, yet are able to be fixed with the simple rubberband trick, rather than the sliding bar ones which can only be glued shut when they malfunction."

Generally, I have made this point before, which is why I like the tack couplers - they can be dealt with, repaired and have new parts put in them when required.  3RO coupler design has taken some really awkward turns in the last 10 years - air hoses (in the way and calls attention to the big coupler; I cut them off), the horizontal coupler tab action, which is awkward and causes the car to roll down the track when you push on it; the delicacy and can't-fix-it nature of the new coupler designs; the long, long coupler shafts on the freight cars which makes them stand much too far apart; the general complexity of these pieces.

Thumbtacks, yes! (The tack could be offset a bit to tuck it under the wheels for reduced visibility, admittedly - while retaining all the good stuff.)

Gentlemen,

   IMO not a good thing at all.

PCRR/Dave

"Dumbtack" ... Someone deserves a cookie on that one 

The only tack I've ever bothered to cut off are the "thick" ones. When I  have an issue over aesthetics on something thatpettyy  there is a problem composerr refuses workrighttodayyly)y

The metal plate under the truck only works if the coupler is attached to the truck. The '49 design loses points because the plate adds friction. Modern design required a complicated plate that didn't contact the axle as the new wheelsets turn on needle point bearings.

Kadee guys wanted easily removable couplers, not ones that required a Dremel to cut off. I don't think Lionel could satisfy both camps. 

Personally I am OK with big knuckles. Closer coupling will further hide the couplers with or without their thumbtacks.

Pete

I have not seen the newly designed trucks for the passenger cars, but the new thumbtack design showed up for the first time (for me) on the recently released PS-1 Express boxcars.  In addition to the unsightly thumbtacks, the trucks are no longer sprung and much of the truck's frame is plastic.  If the passenger trucks follow suit, my suspicion is there will still be some disappointment even if you opt to cut the thumbtack off.

J Daddy posted:

I was taking a closer look at the catalog this morning and was crest fallen. The catalog shows even the 21 inch passenger cars are going to" Dumb"TACKS!

This means every car will either have to have its tack removed on my layout or the couplers replaced...

With a 2.8 percent grade weaver cars (about 20 inches long) with these tacks short on the center rail! That means I could be headed for trouble.

Have you guys noticed this?

Not ready to convert to Kadees on my passenger cars....

 

 

Yet another reason to stop buying toy trains .... quality going backward.

Don't forget their shipping times. I'll just fly to china myself!

I like to do a lot of switching which is frustrating with tab couplers. When Lionel & MTH brought out the plate couplers, I disposed of my old rolling stock and replaced it with cars with plate couplers. I have not bought any of the new Lionel freight cars that use tab couplers and will now have to give up Lionel passenger cars. I hope the observation that the 6 wheel truck cars will still have plate couplers is correct as I want a set of the Milwaukee Rd cars. As for the rubber cap, it seems like this will make uncoupling more problematic. I have a large layout with a 36 inch turntable, a 36 inch transfer table, 101 turnouts and 1500 feet of track so a lot of my uncoupling is done considerable distance from the operating point and requires a reliable system.  

"So if you cut them off, they look like the hidden tab ones, yet are able to be fixed with the simple rubberband trick, rather than the sliding bar ones which can only be glued shut when they malfunction. "  I have used plastic wire ties to keep the couplers from opening and I have not had to resort to glue.

Boilermaker1 posted:

So if you cut them off, they look like the hidden tab ones, 

I never understood why the thumbtack thing was always such a big deal. Just cut them off or drill themoff.

The coupler it self is only part of the issue. It is "lower quality" truck :

Rider Sandman posted:" In addition to the unsightly thumbtacks, the trucks are no longer sprung and much of the truck's frame is plastic."

Lionels hidden tab couplers "were" arguably one of, if not, THE best 3 rail truck on the market.

The mention that this was done to please the scale folks is just a better/convenient( luckily for Lionel) excuse than saying its more cost effective for Lionel to manufacture these couplers. Its seems counter productive to disappoint the majority of 3 rail modelers to please a few scale ones.

Having said that, when guys like SIRT are disappointed in the new trucks, even pleasing the scale crowd is questionable.

Lionel may as well put these tab couplers on their locomotives as well..... the scale guys don't use electrocouplers either.

When is the last time you purchased something with the intent of cutting a part off of it you didn't like?

To me, the question is why Lionel doesn't just offer their freight cars in two rail. They sell the wheels for converting them, so just do the rest of it so scale people don't have to buy the car with trucks they don't need and then buy the trucks they do need. Do what Atlas does and offer both.