Pennsy Belpaire Boilers?

Personally, I believe the correct term should be "Belpaire Boiler," because the firebox shape isn't significantly different from that in a radial boiler.

Great Northern ran some although I don`t think they were ex-Pennsylvania.

Wasn't the Belpaire design influenced on the type of coal used (hard anthracite)?  I seem to recall 11 years ago while touring the shops with the dismantled PRR K4 #1361 nearby, the Steamtown tour guide stating that the boiler design was based on the high heat burning characteristics of the anthracite coal used.  If true, it would be likely that a belpaire type boiler engine would not perform or be desired by roadnames of other areas.

Amazing ...and sad, how quickly the PRR (and NYC for that matter) made use of the salvage torch.  A multitude of poor management decisions and desperation for cash flow.

Hopefully someone with more knowledge of the subject will followup with comments.

You're thinking of the Wootten Firebox.

Precisely. There was more volume available for steam as well, but I suspect that was a coincidental advantage, and not one of the main design criteria.

hello guys and gals...........

I wondered why union pacific, santa fe and northern pacific don't use belpaire boilers on their steam engines ?

the woman who loves toy trains

Tiffany

Probably because they were more expensive to build, and had an inherent weakness where the round boiler shell met the squared firebox wrappers.

It was all cost.  The Belpaire design allowed for some standardization.  If the distance between inside sheets and outside sheets of the fire box, was the same and the sheets were close to parallel you could use a lot of stay bolts that were the same, versus  a lot of custom fabrication.  

I've never heard that before. It's not a benefit noted by R. Flanders in Machinery's Reference Series, Locomotive Building, which chronicles the building of a Belpaire-boilered Pennsy 2-8-0.

Heating area was increased as well. When the PRR replaced radial stay fireboxes on USRA N2s 2-10-2's (built by Baldwin and ALCo in 1919) with Belpaire fireboxes, the heating area was increased by 252 sq.ft. The grate area remained 88.3 sq.ft.

I would suspect the railroad's engineering departments felt there was little advantage to the Belpaire design.

The Brits seemed to like Belpaire's, perhaps to get the most out of their relatively smaller locomotives (when compared to US loco's.)

Rusty

"The Pennsy with its distinct locos must have had them show up elsewhere in a second life. "

A NJ short line ran a few PRR hand me downs. I drove down to New Egypt , NJ

to see the 0-6-0 (B6?) -----as a teen-      but engine was always cold.

May have been last PRR engine -to run on a commercial basis.

Just Google :     Union Transportation Co    prr switcher

Floyd

Very interesting.  I am not particularly interested in the Pennsy, but a friend is.  I am

surprised that more of their successful power didn't get to short lines, etc.  I knew

about PRSL, LIRR, DT&I, but not the others, and there weren't that many, which

surprises me.  I'd like to see a photo of one of their Mikados working on the Santa

Fe.  Wonder if it was modified much when in service, or was its origin fairly obvious?

A lot of model Pa. engines have been offered, but if that road isn't modeled, one

has been kind of avoiding a lot of stuff, while if a USRA loco is offered, one can

feel pretty safe about acquiring it as almost generic to a lot of roads.  I was wondering if maybe their use was wider and that avoidance was extreme.  I guess

not.

Where did you find this cite?

Lets not forget the little Interstate down in Virginia, which got PRR H10s 9434 which became its second #9, and L1s 2-8-2s 266 and 1626 which became its #14 and #15.

The Belpaire firebox (not boiler) was an effort to make the outside firebox wrapper conform to the shape of the inside of the firebox; the object was to use the same length staybolts as much as possible.  Flanging the "shoulders" of the front of the outside of the firebox was the most difficult manufacturing problem.  Most roads didn't feel it was worth the trouble.  The PRR obviously did. 

EdKing

The term "Belpaire boiler" was used just as often (if not more so) as "Belpaire firebox" in period texts. Since the firebox shape doesn't differ significantly from the firebox in a radial boiler, to me it's logical to refer to it as a Belpaire boiler. To each his own.

The only modification the Pennsy L1 Mikado's received while on the Santa Fe were boiler tube pilots, illuminated number boxes and Santa Fe tenders, according to "Iron Horses of the Santa Fe." 

Bought in July 1945 to ease the wartime power shortage, they saw little service on the Santa Fe after Japan surrendered and spent most of the time in the dead line at Shopton, Iowa.  They were scrapped in July 1947.

The only photo's I've seen (again in "Iron Horses...") were after they were removed from service and sitting on the dead line with their Pennsy tenders.

Rusty

Thanks, Rusty Traque:  Just two years in service on a western road and then scrapped?  And this during WWII, when there may have been fewer photos taken....

and no history of where they operated...sounds like the eastern end of the Sandy

Fay shoving local freight boxcars under grain elevators...  Looks like a chapter to research for the next ATSF loco book.  Here I was hoping they ran the Joint Line

and I'd have an excuse to operate one...certainly enough models of them out there..

although that is after my period, so I couldn't use one anyway.

PENNSY POWER: STEAM AND ELECTRIC LOCOMOTIVES OF THE PENNSYLVANIA RAILROAD 1900-1957, by Alvin F. Staufer, 1962, p. 84

Here is a quote from PENNSY POWER, by Alvin F. Staufer:

   Dieselization was complete by the end of 1957. Steam locomotives had pulled their final trains on Middle and Susquehanna Divisions, and in New Jersey. And yet there remained one Belpaire boiler in steam: 0-6-0 switcher no. 5244 was leased to the 14 mile long Union Transportation Co. at Egypt, N.J. That stalwart little B6sb class holdout lasted until July of 1959 when she chuffed sedately into Camden Terminal and was subsequently relayed across Delair Bridge to West Philly Enginehouse on her final run. When 5244's fire was dropped, a 113 year steam history that embraced nearly twenty-five thousand locomotives was at an end. 

Pennsy....all those Belpaire boilers, and yet their best steamer ever had a

radial stay !  The awesome success with the Big Jay caused so much

controversy within the Penn, that it's partially the reason why there's no

such animal at Strasburg today.  Fear not, my Nomex suit is on!

Thanks.

I am just mystified by where that extra area could have possibly come from. That's nearly 16 x 16 feet! Were extra tubes added perhaps?

Pennsy got amazing performance out of it's Belpaire boilered locomotives. M1a's (4-8-2's) were lugging 10,000 ton coal trains over the Middle Division in the 1950's. That's a lotta train for a 390,000 pound locomotive! And the same locomotive held down the Pennsy's fast freight schedules for decades and handled passenger assignments, too!

Let's get the terms correct. It is a BELPAIRE FIREBOX mated to a standard fire tube BOILER. It is NOT a "Belpaire BOILER."

The only modern freight locomotive the P Company ever had was the Lima-designed 2-10-4. Everything else was stuck in the 1920's. Sorry, but I was never very impressed with the so-called "Standard Railroad of the World."

My Pennsy fan friend stood at the tracks and watched a T-1 stop to pick up their

dad who was an RPO Supervisor on the road.  I claim to know nothing about this

railroad, but it has many fans and so a lot of models exist.  Did the T-1 have the

Belpaire firebox, as it seems to be one of several last ditch efforts to keep steam

in power, steam turbines, etc.?  If Belpaire technology was OBE'd, as Mr. Melvin

states above, that could explain why few used Pennsy locos showed up on short lines all over the country.  I'd guess people shopping, like for a used car, would be

looking for the latest technology they could get for their price. And with diesels

taking over the Class 1's, modern steam, although much of it rode hard and put away

wet in WWII, designed and built during the war, may have been available.  And that

might have only been the few little roads that couldn't swing the price of a 44 tonner or which never had an EMD salesman find them. (although I am wondering if very

many small steamers were built during the war, or just the large power needed to

move all the war materiel, much of it too heavy for light rail on weed grown branches?)

Now wait a minute. How do you identify a Belpaire? By the Squared flanks of the upper section of the boiler........where the water is boiled, no? Above the crown sheet. The firebox, grate, etc. looks pretty much like any other firebox. So, Belpaire boiler!

      Let the fire works begin!

The Pennsylvania Q2 4-4-6-4 which generated something like 8000 horsepower was about as modern as steam freight motive power got. Alas, it came too late to be refined, so was dumped in favor of the superior and more cost-effective diesel electric.

Corpus Christi to Laredo Tex-Mex had ONE 0-6-0 with that firebox!

So did turn of the century CB&Q 4-6-0's, IC 4-6-0's, Soo Line 0-6-0's and 4-4-2's, and Pennsy-design B&O 2-8-0's. Never really caught on with 98% of roads. Problems with staybolt maintenance?

I trust that these guys know whether its a firebox or a boiler.

http://www.prrths.com/PRR_Belpaire.html

A few pictures.    PRR K4 1361 restoration project, still available on the web.

Pictures are from Charles Cantrell.  Project at the time was to replace side sheets both inner and outer and install a new mud ring, basic structural support for the bottom of the fire box.  These pictures are from 2003.

Side sheet removed.

Temporary bracing installed a lot of stay bolts most of them the same.

New mud ring.

Old and New.  Note the parallel sheets, staybolts the same.  A lot of staybolts.

Side sheet in place.

The volunteers had trouble with this installation and it was never completed, the project once again put on hold.   Pictures allow for an idea of just how much skilled machine work goes into a fire box rebuild.  There are more pictures pages 14 and 15 of the rebuild project access from the link above.

Mike, GREAT photos!!!

Looking at them I imagine the original workers must have had hearing loss from working back then without hearing protection like the guys in the photo.

As you can plainly see from the excellent images posted here, the entire BELPAIRE FIREBOX has a different shape than a conventional firebox. "...you identify a Belpaire...By the Squared flanks of the upper section of the boiler firebox.

The top of the firebox is squared off all the way to the door sheet (the rear of the firebox, for those of you in Rio Linda) and that is the distinctive mark of the BELPAIRE FIREBOX design. It Does NOT look "...pretty much like any other firebox..."

The BOILER is that section of the locomotive that houses the tubes...the round part in front of the firebox. The FIREBOX is mated to the rear of the boiler. It provides a place for the fire and generates the heat needed to generate the steam in the boiler.

The correct term is a BELPAIRE FIREBOX, not a BELPAIRE BOILER. There is nothing special about the boilers on P Company locomotives. They are standard fire-tube boilers, pretty much like every other steam locomotive had.

Further, a redundant reference is made here to  “radial boiler”  as if making a comparison to a non-radial configuration. Show me a steam drum in a watertube boiler or any firetube boiler that is not constructed with a radial shell.  

Bob Di Stefano

OK, I give. Belpaire firebox! Very instructive photo of the backhead.

Rich

My understanding is that boiling water surrounds the inner walls of the firebox and crown sheet, and the firebox can be viewed as an integral part (subset) of the boiler.   From Kalmachs's Cyclopedia - Vol 1 Steam Locomotives  "the three main parts of the boiler are the smokebox, waist or shell, and the firebox.  If Kalmbach is correct, both the terms belpaire boiler and belpaire firebox can be properly used to characterize the design approach.

Ed Rappe

This is a picture of the Balwin #26 0-6-0 Boiler/Fire box currently under extended rebuild at steamtown.  Add the Curves to the fire box and look what happens to the staybolts. Now you have a serious machining project. 

The rear tube sheet is the begining of the fire box. Not a great picture but each row of radial stay bolts would requre different lengths and different machine set up.

A little better picture of radial staybolts.

This is a mach-up that was done at Steamtown to explain the intensity/complexity of the work.

Note that when you add the angles the machine work becomes more intense. Keep in mind not only are these three staybolts different length, the threads in both the roof sheet and crown sheet would require tooling capable of drilling and threading at the different angles. After the stay is threaded in, it is cut and peaned over to to seal.  If a stay become defective, ( it leaks). It is replaced by drilling and threading a bigger hole. Also requiring  the fabrication of a new large stay bolt.  This can be done only so many times before  fire box sheets both inside and out have to be replace.   I was told a lot the stay bolt work is done by apprentist boiler makers.  

I suggest that the publications produced "back in the day,"--such as "Boiler Maker," can be considered quitre authoritative on the subject. They refer to "Belpaire boilers," your protestations notwithstanding.

CLICK HERE to see what I mean.

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Edited by the Webmaster to fix the URL. The long URL text was messing up the page formatting on iPads and iPhones.

And while we're myth busting....out the window with this 8K Q2 business.  That

79XX HP reading was obtained on the Altoona test plant with no tender and

the drivers running on rollers. Totally meaningless except in comparing other

PRR units tested in the same manner.  Real Q2 road HP was about 5500-5600,

or similar to that of a ATSF 5011 or a 275Lb. N&W A. The numbers can be

worked up easily enough with the available formulas.  FWIW, the Q2 tested

about 1K higher than the Big Jay at a simulated 57MPH. On the road the Jay

was a lot closer.