PENNSYLVANIA LEGACY K-4 LOCOMOTIVE WITH LONG HAUL TENDER

Mine has been a solid, reliable runner. I haven't experienced any issues. No complaints here.

I saw where new K-4s are arriving now in stores. I saw one yesterday in a train shop. The owner told me it had just arrived. It was really nice, but it is TMCC not Legacy. I want to stay with Legacy.

I run TMCC... just curious, what does legacy do for you that TMCC lacks? Wondering if/when I should upgrade.

First let me say - TMCC is awesome. The reasons I want to stay with Legacy are:

1. I just got back into model railroading after being away from it for a long time. I started from scratch with no equipment. Since I was going to be buying new equipment, I decided that I wanted Lionel’s most advanced system, which is Legacy.

2. The Legacy Command CAB2 remote is absolutely amazing, offering more control over locomotives than available with TMCC remote controls.

3. You can control roughly 99 locomotives with the CAB2 remote.

4. The Legacy CAB2 is backwards compatible with TMCC, so you have the best of both worlds.

Thanks. I am just curious as to what "more control over locomotives" actually means... 

@HiramO posted:

Thanks. I am just curious as to what "more control over locomotives" actually means...

Comment should be; more features available as well. Lighting, sounds, better cruise, smoke...

Thank you!

We’ll said, Jeff T.

The level of control is just remarkable. Really cool system.

@DILLI posted:

I saw where new K-4s are arriving now in stores. I saw one yesterday in a train shop. The owner told me it had just arrived. It was really nice, but it is TMCC not Legacy. I want to stay with Legacy.

Who makes the K4 you saw at a train shop?….if it’s a Lionel model, they don’t even offer basic TMCC as an option anymore, and haven’t for a long time,……

Pat

It was Lionel.

I asked the owner if it was Legacy and he said no. Now that I am thinking about it, I think it was LionChief not TMCC. It was not Legacy and was selling for less than a Legacy steamer. It was beautiful.

I took a few photos of it.

Lionchief stuff is semi scale,…just an FYI, the K4 you’re inquiring about is a full scale model, with much more details than the LC line, or even LC+ …..you don’t have to be stuck on Legacy alone…yes, Legacy is leaps and bounds over the older TMCC, however, older equipment such as TMCC stuff with Oddesy, can be fairly easily upgraded to cruise, 4 chuffs, and fan smoke. Subsequently, most any MTH model can be upgraded, even to full Legacy by the local Legacy doctors Sid & Bruk….they turn plain ordinary scale models into works of art,……..just an idea for you to explore,……most importantly, have fun!…

Pat

DILLI,

     I believe the TMCC K4 your hobby store has is the TMCC version they had in their 2002 Volume 1 catalog 6-38025 was #1361 and 6-38044 was #5385. If it is unused it has been in the box for a long time. I don’t know about his statement “It just came in” but who knows, I still see the on EBay available as new in the box. The big issue with this engine was the size of the boiler (too big). Our club has a # 5385, it has seen a lot of wear and tear but still runs. Very early railsounds but has a nice whistle.

    If you are looking for a inexpensive version of a K4 look at the Kline K4s that were introduced just before they went under. I have one # 1361 and is identical to the Lionel Legacy K4 which I have two except of course the TMCC in the Kline version and Legacy in the Lionel version. They appear on eBay now and then. Mine has been running since I got it in 2005 or 6 if I remember correctly. The TMCC has only two chuffs per revolution but they can be upgraded to 4 see guys like Alex M or GRJ. Mine now sits in a display case as it is a beautiful locomotive.

JohnB

I’ll speak for the legacy version with long haul tender you asked about. I have one and love it, great engine. Others have had issues with Lionel Legacy K4s and the gearbox, but I run mine often and have had no issues. The long haul tender is unique and sounds are good.

Thanks, everyone, for your contributions. I appreciate everyone’s expertise. I just went on the website for the train store I referenced but never named. The locomotive that I photographed is shown there and is advertised as Lionel’s Lion Chief + 2.0. It is not the Long Haul Tender Legacy version I originally asked about. But I did like it. The owner said he had ordered it a while back and it was delayed coming in, but that it had just arrived. I want to stick with Legacy for all of the reasons shared here by everyone. I hope everyone has a great 2022!

DILLI,

     I never thought about the Lionchief locomotive. I am a scale guy and when I read long haul tender I thought you were talking scale. I guess this could be a compliment for the LionChief model that so many of us were only thinking of scale engines.

JohnB

TedW

My email address should now be displayed in my profile.

I will present an opposing view of this particular model.  It has the infamous K-Line designed chassis with the internal gearbox.  I have replaced a number drive blocks on these, I believe six and counting.  It happens enough that I keep a spare new driveblock in stock so that I don't have to wait for it!  Other than for damage from drops or zinc pest, this is the only model that I've had to replace the whole chassis on.

The problem with this model is an internal gear has a side load due to the gearbox design and works it's way off the shaft.  Although it could probably be repaired by pulling ALL the wheels to be able to remove the internal gears, the amount of labor to do that simply isn't justified.

If you buy this model, I suggest you don't overload it with long consists, as I don't have any faith in it's longevity in heavy use.

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

I will present an opposing view of this particular model.  It has the infamous K-Line designed chassis with the internal gearbox.  I have replaced a number drive blocks on these, I believe six and counting.  It happens enough that I keep a spare new driveblock in stock so that I don't have to wait for it!  Other than for damage from drops or zinc pest, this is the only model that I've had to replace the whole chassis on.

The problem with this model is an internal gear has a side load due to the gearbox design and works it's way off the shaft.  Although it could probably be repaired by pulling ALL the wheels to be able to remove the internal gears, the amount of labor to do that simply isn't justified.

If you buy this model, I suggest you don't overload it with long consists, as I don't have any faith in it's longevity in heavy use.

GRJ

Just to be 100% sure, are you speaking about the 2016 Lionel Legacy K-4 Long Haul Locomotive/Tender?

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

I will present an opposing view of this particular model.  It has the infamous K-Line designed chassis with the internal gearbox.  I have replaced a number drive blocks on these, I believe six and counting.  It happens enough that I keep a spare new driveblock in stock so that I don't have to wait for it!  Other than for damage from drops or zinc pest, this is the only model that I've had to replace the whole chassis on.

The problem with this model is an internal gear has a side load due to the gearbox design and works it's way off the shaft.  Although it could probably be repaired by pulling ALL the wheels to be able to remove the internal gears, the amount of labor to do that simply isn't justified.

If you buy this model, I suggest you don't overload it with long consists, as I don't have any faith in it's longevity in heavy use.

I’ll second that,….problematic for sure,….and yes, it will affect the ones with the long haul tender,…..any of the Lionels with this type of gear box is susceptible to this failure, …fortunately, I do believe it is limited to the K4 at the moment, the problem lies in the intermediate gear in the compound gear box,…..the intermediate gear walks off the final drive, and then either slips and quits engaging, or goes into self destruct mode,…..

Pat  

Wow - I appreciate you and GRJ  sharing this with me! I am glad I asked. I did not expect to hear what I am hearing, but better to know it now than after I lay down the money for the locomotive.

My first choice, and the locomotive that I have been interested in for a long time, is the Lionel Legacy T1. I am a Reading fanatic, and this locomotive has had my eye for a long time. Is there anything I should be concerned about with the Legacy T1?

@harmonyards posted:

I’ll second that,….problematic for sure,….and yes, it will affect the ones with the long haul tender,…..any of the Lionels with this type of gear box is susceptible to this failure, …fortunately, I do believe it is limited to the K4 at the moment.

Pat  

As I've stated before. This gearbox design has been adapted for just about every locomotive Lionel makes now.

All one has to do is peak through the spokes of the driven axle to see the shaft and bushing in the chassis.

The removable bottom plate of Lionels old H9 (10) tooling makes it easy to see the complexity/ fragility of the design. Not to mention all of the lateral play allowing for minimal gear contact.

@DILLI posted:

Just to be 100% sure, are you speaking about the 2016 Lionel Legacy K-4 Long Haul Locomotive/Tender?

Since they all take the exact same drive block, I'm referring to any of the K-4 models that use that design.

@DILLI posted:

Wow - I appreciate you and GRJ  sharing this with me! I am glad I asked. I did not expect to hear what I am hearing, but better to know it now than after I lay down the money for the locomotive.

My first choice, and the locomotive that I have been interested in for a long time, is the Lionel Legacy T1. I am a Reading fanatic, and this locomotive has had my eye for a long time. Is there anything I should be concerned about with the Legacy T1?

I have a couple of the Legacy Reading T1 locomotives, no problems so far.  I don't know of any design issue like that K-Line design that afflicts the Reading T1.

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

I have a couple of the Legacy Reading T1 locomotives, no problems so far.  I don't know of any design issue like that K-Line design that afflicts the Reading T1.

Is that gearbox design in the K-Line tooling Berkshires also?

@BobbyD posted:

Is that gearbox design in the K-Line tooling Berkshires also?

Yepppppp……sure is…..as Rick noted, any of the Lionel’s that have that shaft you can see through the driver, has that compound gear box,…..all the little Legacy Berks that are Kline re-dos have that gear box design…

Pat

After watching that video, would it be possible to put some “C” shaped stiff plastic or teflon bushings/washers on the drive axle or intermediate shaft, or both? I’m thinking if this would be done early as a preventative measure, then that would help to keep the gears centered.  These might be sacrificial in nature, but I’d sure rather do that every few years than have to replace an entire frame and drive block.

just wondering why they made one with a long haul tender. the only PRR locos I ever saw photos of with those were the I1 and some of the larger locos. the picture you posted is not a long haul tender.  I have the Legacy K4 and it has been very reliable for a number of years.

@rplst8 posted:

After watching that video, would it be possible to put some “C” shaped stiff plastic or teflon bushings/washers on the drive axle or intermediate shaft, or both? I’m thinking if this would be done early as a preventative measure, then that would help to keep the gears centered.  These might be sacrificial in nature, but I’d sure rather do that every few years than have to replace an entire frame and drive block.

If that were the only problem, sure,…..I’m developing a fix for the ones that haven’t gone into carnage,…….the real problem is the intermediate gear leaves it’s mooring from the shaft all together and wollers around in there turning everything into bronze powdery goo,….I’ve almost got this fix perfected, ….but it will only be useful on those locomotives that haven’t self destructed yet,….

Pat  

@rplst8 posted:

After watching that video, would it be possible to put some “C” shaped stiff plastic or teflon bushings/washers on the drive axle or intermediate shaft, or both? I’m thinking if this would be done early as a preventative measure, then that would help to keep the gears centered.  These might be sacrificial in nature, but I’d sure rather do that every few years than have to replace an entire frame and drive block.

Well, I tried this, and it didn't work out that well.  I actually got one working that way, but the others still were slipping.  After screwing around with Band-Aids, I figured it was easier since I had it all apart to just put a new drive block in.

@harmonyards posted:

If that were the only problem, sure,…..I’m developing a fix for the ones that haven’t gone into carnage,…….the real problem is the intermediate gear leaves it’s mooring from the shaft all together and wollers around in there turning everything into bronze powdery goo,….I’ve almost got this fix perfected, ….but it will only be useful on those locomotives that haven’t self destructed yet,….

Pat, Take my money!

Seriously though, when you have a fix hopefully it will be a kit I can buy because I’ll be first in line for it.  I’ve had my eye on a Warren G. Harding funeral set, but no way am I laying down that sort of scratch on a known lemon.

Pat, I have a drive block with the gear that's just off the shaft, if you figure out how to fix this reasonably, maybe I can be the test subject.

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

Pat, I have a drive block with the gear that's just off the shaft, if you figure out how to fix this reasonably, maybe I can be the test subject.

Send it with your 3rd rail switch offender locomotive …..I wouldn’t mind having a second beta tester,…..I’m not developing a band aid, ….I’m hoping the fix can be unilaterally applied without a lot of heartburn out in the field, rather than chassis having to come to me ……right now I’m tryin to get the fidgetiness out of the fix,….

Pat

Pat, it would be great if there was a reasonably easy and effective fix.  I'm sure Lionel will run out of those drive blocks at some point.

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

Pat, it would be great if there was a reasonably easy and effective fix.  I'm sure Lionel will run out of those drive blocks at some point.

I figured as much, so if the fix can be in field serviceable, it will be a good preemptive strike package ….fix it before the carnage wipes it out for good,…😉

Pat

Is this going to be a problem on the Lionel Reading T1's? This is of the 2017 and mine is a 2020 #2100 Rambles which is my heavy hauler engine. https://www.lionelsupport.com/...0/396348Dscn9589.jpg

@Rambler2100 posted:

Is this going to be a problem on the Lionel Reading T1's? This is of the 2017 and mine is a 2020 #2100 Rambles which is my heavy hauler engine. https://www.lionelsupport.com/...0/396348Dscn9589.jpg

Look through the axle where the gear box is. Do you see the tell tale intermediate shaft that would suggest a compound gear box? . ……not all of the newer lionel product line have that compound arrangement. I’m not familiar with T1 construction. The 2018 (ish) new Hudson J3a’s do not have a compound gear arrangement,……also to note, the only known gear box issues that I’m aware of are the Legacy Pennsy K4’s,…..unless there’s another John is aware of,……

Pat

@harmonyards posted:

……also to note, the only known gear box issues that I’m aware of are the Legacy Pennsy K4’s,…..unless there’s another John is aware of,……

The only ones I've actually come across is a host of the K-4's spinning that internal gear.  I've seen others with what looks to be the same design, but I haven't had them come in for a bad gearbox.