Powering Frogs

You can buy ties from Kappler Lumber...........

Hi Al,

Here is link to the Lou Cross web site:

http://www.right-o-way.com/

Here is a past OGR forum thread on Right-O-Way products:

https://ogrforum.com/t...aylew-cross-turnouts

I have also purchased assorted ties from Fast Tracks:

http://www.handlaidtrack.com/

Lou is a great guy to deal with.  You must call or mail order his parts, no online ordering (he's in his late 80's or early 90's so you have to be a little patient but he will fix you up right).  If you call, he will send you the parts with a bill enclosed or in a separate mailing.  He mostly works in a "on your honor" kinda way.

As for powering frogs, it really depends on how clean and level your track is (especially at the turnout) and how well the loco makes contact with the rail to get good pickup as it goes through the turnout.  This is really a subjective question and no one can give you a definitive yes or no answer.  If you retrofit your DCC locos with a couple of Keep Alive super capacitor packages like those sold from Train Control Systems (TCS) or SoundTraxx at ~$20-$24 each, then powering frogs won't be necessary even with not so perfect track conditions.  However, you are going to need to know something about electronics to locate the bridge rectifier on the DCC decoder to find out where to tap in the Keep Alives in your particular brand of loco or find someone that can help you.  These “keep alives” are used in HO too, so this is not an O scale-only kind of installation.  We just have to use more of them in O scale since our motors are larger (or more of them, e.g. multiple motors per loco as in the case of vertical drives from Atlas,  MTH, and Lionel) and therefore, draw more current.  Here is a OGR forum post I did on my Atlas O GP60 Keep Alive retrofit using a Protocraft DCC sound decoder.

https://ogrforum.com/t...cc-w-keep-alive-caps

Here is a link to Soundtraxx and TCS Keep Alive packages from an online retailer:

http://www.traintekllc.com/Sou...ductinfo/STX-810140/

http://www.traintekllc.com/TCS...roductinfo/TCS-1456/

Also, check out the excellent YouTube video series from a fellow OGR Forum member that uses Right-O-Way components to build a complete turnout from scratch.  You may not wish to do this (or you may find that it is not that hard and decide to build one on your own after all) but at least you see what it takes and what pieces of the process you may wish to tackle on your own to save money.  Here is the link for the first video (there is something like 12 in total) but you can find the links to the remaining videos in the YouTube related videos pane on the right side of YouTube page or by clicking on their YouTube user name to see a listing of all their videos.

http://youtu.be/MYJl-a0TWqA

Hope this helps.

Scott Kay

Austin, TX

For bullet  proof operation I power all my frogs.  If I had Keep Alive capacitors on all my DCC equipped locomotives perhaps I wouldn't - but I don't.  Frog powering is  relatively easy to do using the contacts on switch motors like Tortoise.  For hand throws I burry micro switches adjacent to the points throw bar.  It may take 30 minutes to install a  micro  switch - peanuts compared with building the turnout.  

Ed Rappe

PS Buy a few commercial turnouts to get started then try building your own with Lou Cross's castings -  then you can make an informed decision regarding trading off money vs. time.  With over 100 turnouts I went with using Lou's great products in all but locations that were difficult to work.

It is easy to power the frog with a slide switch while throwing the points with some piano wire at the same time.  Total cost, less than a buck apiece.

The photo is of a hidden staging yards.  The slide switch could be disguised a little in open areas.

On my Tortoise equipped turnouts I use their s.p.d.t. contacts.

IME, I would only use powered frogs

Hi Al...you can get ties from Kappler or cut your own if you like.  Powering the frogs is always a good step to take just to insure no operational issues.  As Ed and Tom have stated/shown above it really isn't a hard or time consuming task. 

As has been stated Lou Cross is such a gentleman and a huge asset to the hobby.  His offerings are top notch and I have built many turnouts with his components and I can honestly say that I have had zero problems with any of his products.  

Have you tried "The Frog Juicer"?

Larry

Lou Cross (Right-O-Way) will be at the Chicago show this weekend. If you are at the show be sure to stop at his table - great guy, great products.

The Tam Valley Frog Juicer is a DCC only solution.  A downside is that it adds  quite a bit more cost than using contacts on an existing switch motor or micro switch.  For those running O scale using a DCC 10 amp system there may be issues with Frog Juicer's current rating.  For info and pricing see:http://www.tamvalleydepot.com/.../dccfrogjuicers.html

Tam Valley has an interesting product line.  I've used several small R/C servos with their DCC Octopus driver to control turnouts where I couldn't mount a switch motor below the table.  They were very helpful in answering my questions about their products.  OST several years ago had an article on top mounting servo motors that I found useful.

Ed Rappe

No,don't know what you mean,but being in an "O Scale Desert," with snow instead of the sand,I know nothing.

Got another question. For the money,Atlas #5s seem like the best buy since they're assembled & ready to lay,not that I'm in a hurry as I'm in the infantcy stages of planning yet. Opposite the frog on the 1 outside straight rail,there's a very small round metal piece with a hole in it.Tthis seems to lead to the frog-is this meant to supply power to the frog? It looks like it leads to the frog directly though it's covered by  plastic from the tie. From wiring in HO,if this were connected to the + or "hot" rail,would that respectively power the frog?

Thank you,

Al Hummel

Hi Al

Simplicity and ease of use were important to me so I stuck with DC, Atlas switches, track, and equipment. I initially did not power the frogs in the yards and it was impossible to bring a train through without the engines dying on each switch.  I went with Blue Point manual switch machines as there are frog leads on the bottom of each unit. There is also a second set of leads that will allow you to control signals if you decide to go that route. Once hooked (simple attachment of 3 wires) up everything runs like butter. Here is a vid of a freight coming off the main line and through several Atlas switches with powered frogs. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jE8pUgKqJAg

Alan,

There have been comments that the tab on the side of the Atlas switches is not reliable in carrying current to the frog.  Furthermore, Atlas switches have extra long guard rails and wing rails which are non-prototypical.  I would recommend Signature Switch for appearance and reliability.  Signature Switch will provide DCC ready switches and also attach feeders to the rails and frog for you.  They will even color-code the wires to your color scheme.

If you use a switch machine power supply with a common wire you can use a dpdt switch to power the switch machine and change the polarity of the frog at the same time.  For switch machines, I use the Hankscraft display motor, reversible, 4 rpm and 3 volts.  It provides realistically slow motion in throwing the points and provides constant pressure of the point against the stock rail.  No need for a Frog Juicer.

Ed

I should have mentioned that...thanks Ed. I believe they have that resolved this with the new switches though. Anyway, I have soldered the power wire directly to the frog....so that is an option.....

Ed;

In my correspondence with Signature,they say I have to power the frog.

I use Caboose Industry ground throws,or should say, "will" use them for my T/O's.

Since I plan on using nothing less than Gp30s or GP38s from MTH,I thought the wheel base would be long enough that powering the frog would be unnecessary. Many posts here have said it's always a good idea though,which I respect highly.

Being an "infant" in O Scale,for the money which I don't have, I thought they'd be a great choice since there's no work as far as spiking to do. Their points look much more prototypical than Atlas,also.

Thank you,

Al Hummel

On a recent Atlas flyer there are about 5 new upgrades on the 3 rail turnouts.

For the two rail market the only upgrade listed on the new flyer is a new throw rod.

Ed,

That was FANTASTIC!! May have to trade the wife for the trains. No! Only joking!

That was Fantastic!! That's just DC? Such S-L-O-W speed! That's got me drooling. Where is your sound coming from? Nothing less than OUTSTANDING!! (Thought I was overdoing the fantastic" word a bit).

Those switchstands which are dummies,should have future "working" models. O Scale's got the room.

You solved another problem in making the trains look more real in the available space-backdrops. Yup,that'll do it!

That video gave me a "shot in the arm," towards O scale again. No matter how many years it takes to get the money through sales of my HO&N,I'm here to stay! Is that B&O Caboose originally a Lionel I-12 converted to 2 rail,from3 rail? I've got a Chessie I-12 I was going to sell rather than "butcher" to convert to 2 rail,but really want to keep it,if it's not above the average mind to convert.

Thanks SO MUCH!!

Al Hummel

I use Tam Valley Depot Dual Frog Juicers.  A Dual Frog Juicer is a small circuit board under microprocessor control which detects the wrong polarity in milliseconds and switch the frog polarity.  Requires DCC.  Won't work with DC.   But if you have DCC very simple to install.  Connect two wires to DCC track buss (in the same power district) and one wire to the dead/insulated frog.  You're in business.  Been using them on my layout for three years. Flawless operation.  None have failed.  

Good to know! I have one but I haven't used it yet. When I read about it I knew I had to get one. Really cool stuff. Sorry the layout on the video is HO, but If you wanna see it in action here you go:

I got mine from fastracks: http://www.handlaidtrack.com/U...Juicer-p/hfj003u.htm

when the juicers are working they are great,  but ive had some burn out so my frogs were dead.  am going to power them all with my tortoise machines.

Bob, Were you using the Mono Frog Juicers or the Dual Frog Juicers which have a higher current rating?  What amperage booster(s)?

I have NTE 10 amp boosters and use the higher current rated Dual Frog Juicers TV Depot recommends for 10 amp boosters.  Rock solid performance.  No problems.

Bill

 "I plan on using MTH 4axle diesels as well as 6 axle 'road diesels,so what information I've picked up on these diesels,indicates as I'm not using short wheel base engines,this shouldn't be a problem-am I correct?"

   It really depends on the loco wheel base, the loco power pick up ( are all wheels equipped with working power pick up?) and the length of frog gap. If the frog is gapped to have a short dead area most locos will run across with no problems. I used dead frogs on my last O scale layout and the only loco that had any trouble was a short wheelbase 4 wheel industrial critter and it only had a problem on one long curved turnout where the gaped dead spot exceeded it's wheelbase. If you are just starting in O I'd suggest more study and hands on experimentation before making the final decision. Peco makes O scale turnouts that are electrofrog similar to their HO version but they are british style so some folks don't like their looks. Atlas O might be a good place to start if their product suits your pocketbook and needs. I build my own from rail and ties so I can get exactly what I want, it takes a bit of practice but once it's learned it's a valuable skill for a model railroader to have. If you want to learn their's lots of online instruction available....DaveB

I was using the Hex Frog Juicer

Bob, maybe that was the problem.  The Hex Frog Juicer has a lower amperage rating than the Dual Frog Juicer recommended for O Scale.

1.  Only the Peco Code 124 turnouts have a British appearance.  I believe the Peco Code 143 turnouts actually have, with their Pandrol-type fittings, a more contemporary-North-American look than ANY other RTR turnout, or any kit that I'm aware of, on the market;  if you find that hard to believe, look at say the UP-BNSF Common Standard turnout drawings and bills of material, readily available on the i-net. 

   These turnouts do have an integral microswitch to power the frog;  they also have an over-center spring mechanism that makes them ideal for hand throw, either local or 'choke cable' style.

   Unfortunately I can't post photos of these turnouts here [ because the OGR Forum no longer supports my interface, unlike all the other forums I post photos on....] or I would.  I know I may sound like a Peco rep at times, but these turnouts really are underrated, probably because few people have really looked at them, let alone tried them. 

2.  Yes, I'd suggest some experimentation with your equipment.  When I built the first hunk, the lowest [ staging ] area, of my layout I found that live frogs weren't necessary, at least there.  But in terminal areas with more complex trackwork, I powered all frogs just to be on the safe side because of slow speeds or swb switchers.

    But in ALL cases I ran a feed from the frog to a nearby t/strip so if it wasn't powered and future experience / motive power dictated it, that could more readily be done.

Best regards, SZ

 "I believe the Peco Code 143 turnouts actually have, with their Pandrol-type fittings, a more contemporary-North-American look than ANY other RTR turnout, or any kit that I'm aware of, on the market"

    Thanks, that's good to know. I'd only seen the older British style which seed to work fine.  Since O scale lacks the wide selection of HO it's great that Peco gives us another choice.  I'd still encourage anyone interested in O scale to learn to build their own turnouts and avoid the whole problem. Once the skill is learned one can build any configuration they need, frog number, rail size, curved or straight,etc. for less than $10 in materials with no ordering, mail costs, or time waiting involved. Track plans can be drawn to suit the space available with no compromises to fit the available commercial turnouts ...DaveB