Powering MTH Buildings

Does it hum and change brightness with something else connected rather than the buildings? We get a hum from the MTH neon signs, currently using old ZW for lights.

The Z4000 only makes the noise when I move the right throttle arm and power up the buildings, it gets louder as the volts increase.

Darren, your MTH buildings with lighting only normally want 12 to 14 V AC and will do fine running off your two fixed voltage taps of your Z4000.  Save your variable voltage taps for accessories and engines.

When I tried using the 14v tap it tripped the fuse.  Any idea why there is so much noise?  I checked the wiring to the buildings, its very simple, but could there be a problem, not all the buildings have ground labels, could this be an issue if I have the wires reversed?

That's why we have to up amp, all those little bulbs! It has been awhile but some buildings may have + and - requirements like the operating ones and ones with signs.

Is it possible somewhere you have a hot and common mixed?

 

If it doesn't hum with the buildings disconnected and with that throttle powering other things, my guess is it would not be the Z4000

Sounds like there might be a wiring problem with your lights - drawing too much current and making the Z4000 groan.  It "works" on the right throttle because that output can put out more power than the 14V tap.

 

As you slowly bring up the right throttle, what kind of AMPS readings are you getting on the Z4000 readout at different VOLTS settings?  At, say, 9V, 12V, 15V...

Stan,

At 14v the amps were at 9.8
At 18v the amps were at 11

Darren

Yikes!  Well, on my Z4000 it says the 14V tap has 3A capability so that's undoubtedly why it choked on 9.8 Amps!

 

The throttle outputs are rated for 180 Watts output. Power = Volts x Current, so 18V x 11 Amps exceeds 180 Watts so I guess I'd be groaning too!

 

I think you need to check you wiring, perhaps pulling 1 building at a time if that's practical.  I guess the "good" news is I think your Z4000 is OK and it's just a loose wire or the like.

Thank you, I will, possibly there is a wire issue, doesn't make much sense since all the buildings light up.

Darren

I run my lights via accessory HO transformers and a Lionel transformer. All work well although I've had some of the HO transformers overheat if you put too much load on them. 

Is this humming a new symptom?  I suppose you could just have too many buildings!

 

If practical try connecting just 1 or 2 typical buildings, measure the Volts and Amps at the desired brightness, and do the Volts x Current = Watts to get your power requirements.  I'd think in the neighborhood of a 5-10 Watts per building.

How many light bulbs do you have connected when the fixed voltage breaker trips?

Susan,  the fixed, or right side of the z4000 has never tripped, only the 14v tap of the z4000 tripped.

I did check all the wiring to the buildings to ensure red is to red and black to black, that's all ok. 

All the lighting and blinking signs work.  I am not sure exactly how many bulbs there are, but I have 21 MTH buildings connected to the terminal block, so at least 100 bulbs.  I do not have a lot of technical electrical knowledge so I have no idea if this is too many.  I am just looking for the best way to power these buildings because the humming noise & the light flickering makes me feel like there is a problem.

Darren

That is the reason.  Assuming .1 amp per bulb that is 10Amps.  Some bulbs are closer to .2 or .25 amps.   You are overloading the output of the Z-4000.  You need to split the houses between another transformer.  Take 10 house off the block and see what happens to amps.  Also depending on the wire gauge running from transformer to block, it may be overloaded too.  Is the insulation soft and melted?   G

Replace the bulbs with LED light strips; You have way too many buildings for the power source.  I have long lines of led strips in all of my six display cabinets that are powered from one 12VAC 30 amp power supply.

Thank you, I will try removing half the buildings from the terminal block and see what happens to the amps.  Then I will work something out from there.  I will also look into the LED lights, but I was hoping not to have to replace the lights in all these buildings. 

Darren,

I agree that you have a massive overload. Going to LED Bulbs will save you many headaches. Believe me when I say that they are not that expensive. I had two prewar layouts. On one layout alone I had over 165 bulbs. Not only did it over work my Lionel Z, I did not need to turn the room heat on all winter. I had to turn on the a/c in the winter to keep the room below 75 degrees. In the summer the heat was unbearable, even with the a/c up full blast. You say you cannot afford the switch-over? The LED Bulbs are far cheaper than another big transformer. Shop around, you would be very surprised at how affordable the LED Bulbs are. Not only that, your trainroom will be more comfortable in summer and winter.

 

"Pappy"

Hello Darren, I went down and checked my layout and I have 10 MTH buildings running off the 14 volt tap on my Z4000.

On this same tap I have 4 more buildings that are Woodland Scences that do have LED lighting that I installed after i bought the buildings.

I never added up the amperage but these buildings have been wired this way for 3 years and I have not had any problems with the breakers blowing on the Z4000. 

 

 

I agree with a few of the other members there is something crossed up here causing the extra draw of power.

 

Good luck!!!!

Thank you, I will look into the LED's, I was more concerned with the work involved and lack of electrical knowledge.

I removed the entire right side of the 24 point terminal block and the amps went down into the 5's, very little noise from the Z4000 and no more light flashing.  I think I will just buy another terminal block, and split them to 10 + 10, this will reduce the amps more and it will not cost a lot either.  I want to thank everyone for their help on this topic, I really appreciate it.

 

Thank you,

Darren

Hi Darren

I looked at your layout that you are working on and think it's fantastic. I'm not a big time electrical guy . I have done a lot of reading on the forum trying to do the math on getting the maximum safe draw out of a transformer for accessory lighting. Of course I'm still a wee bit confused. 

 

My layout is not he size of yours, however I like lights. Currently I use a ZW-C with two 180 watt bricks for nothing but accessories. One side set for 8 to 10 volts the other side 12 +. Some will say that's a overkill some will not.

 

The things I have read and try to apply the math, I'm already getting close.

 

My point is on your big layout I think you may want to consider a completely separate power source for all of your accessories.

 

Just my thoughts and it's mainly due to I'm thinking you are controlling that big layout with only the one transformer. Is that correct or am I way off base here?

 

Anyway your project is outstanding. Good luck.

Larry

 

 

Good afternoon Darren,

I am just throwing this out there because I made a mistake with the MTH 24 post terminal block.

I was doing the same thing as you using this block to wire up my buildings on the one end of my layout, man this will be great !!!!

 

Not looking that close to the terminal strip I had one terminal strip wired up that the lower row was ground and the upper on the same row was positive.

The wiring I had already done looked perfect, i was really proud of myself !!!!

 

 I came out from underneath the layout for something and I had another one of these terminal strips on my work table and for some reason the second strip was laying upside down.

I looked at it and then I discovered I was wiring the terminal block wrong and one side is (12) ground and the other side (12) is positive.

 

I was just thinking wrong about how the terminal strips were soldered together.

I am glad I looked at the second board before I turned on the Z4000.

 

Like I said just throwing it out there.

Darren, you need to follow GGG's advice and split the load into two terminal blocks and feed each block with a different power supply. If you just split the load into two terminal blocks, without feeding each terminal block with a different power supply, you will find yourself in the same predicament.

 

Of course, if you do nothing with your single terminal block and change out the incandescent bulbs for LED's you will probably solve the problem also.

 

Hope this helps. 

I have 4 buildings and some passenger platforms which I have not connected yet.

I have my engine house connected to one of these wall warts 15.1V at 40VA so it's about 2.6 amps. I have two of these and was hoping they would do ...

I have a ZW and some 1033 Lionel transformers but I don't like the idea of using them for this purpose in case I need one of them and they are tied up doing this task.

 

M.D.- I forgot to add that I had also planned on using additional power supplies, just haven't chosen what I want to use yet.

 

Mark- I actually did the same thing when wiring up my previous layout, couldn't figure out what was wrong, then I looked at the back.

 

Yama- I was hoping not to have to add an entire transformer but until I get all the requirements figured out I will not know.

 

Thanks everyone,

 

Darren