problem with legacy engine

Have you checked the connection between the other loops and loop2 between the outer tracks.  I'm presuming that you tried other TMCC/Legacy locomotives on track 2 with no issues, right?  Do you run just Legacy or Legacy & DCS?

John,yes i have tried other engines on track 2 without any problems,& even with the engine #6-34732 if i change the switch on the power master from conventional to command it works normal on track 2. I just went down the basement and tried it again, & sure enough it did the same thing,also something else i just noticed, when i power up with the switch on the power master in conventional mode,it starts up without me even addressing the engine by it's ID # & if i let just idle,it will shut down without me even doing anything,& it will not even respond to the throttle or anything else. All my loops are independent of each other & i run tmcc & legacy.

The switch should be on command for TMCC/Legacy operation, so I'm not sure what the problem is.

 In your original thread, did you say you had 4 independant loops? Multiple parallel tracks could be creating a ground plane problem.

 

 

Try holding your hand just over the locomotive while you operate it, if it operates normally or noticably better it could be a "ground plane issue". Your body acts as an antenna when you hand is hovering over the loco. Ground plane issues do not effect every locomotive its possible to have just one in your fleet,usually the one with the weakest antenna. 

 

If this is the case search "ground planes" here on the forum, its an easy fix requiring a wire being laid next to the track.

Thanks Rick, i had called lionel & they had suggested it could be a ground plane issue,but when i changed the switch on the power master from conventional to command i have no problem with the engine if there was a ground plane problem, wouldn't it happen regardless of which possition the switch was in?

I'm a bit confused Gerald, however if your operating the locomotive under command control via TMCC the switch should be on command, theres your problem. With the switch set to conventional I suspect the "track side" of the signal is not being delivered.

 

Additionally which command system are you using Legacy, TMCC or both. If both at the same time, the mix of components and seperate hookups to each loops are creating your different operating scenarios.If this is your only legacy locomotive that may have something to do with it as well. To explain it exactly you would have to layout your entire wiring setup,having said that, if your command locomotive works with the switch set to command its working as it should. If its not broke, don't fix it

Rick i also run conventional engines on this loop, however on all 4 of my loops i have never moved the switch on the power masters since i got back into the hobby 4 years ago, they allways stay in conventional mode,but for some reason this engine only responds when the switch is in command mode on track 2 ,i can't explain it i can only say what is happening, it has to be something to do with the engine itself the question is WHAT ?   I suppose eventualy we will figure it out,if anyone has any other suggestions i will be glade to hear them.

Good luck, I still feel its more of an anomaly than an actual problem.

once you connect the command system (Legacy) onto the track you can not ever run a command engine in conventional mode, unless you remove the command system (Legacy) from the track or turn it off.  Lionel set up the command system to always be looking for the TMCC/Legacy signal.

Remember that a Powermaster is only about "Power".  A TMCC/Legacy is about "Control".

 

The Powermaster looks like a Trainmaster, but only controls Power, and does not send any commands to an engine.

 

ChooChooPaul

I 'M sorry if i'm not explaining it clearly,but i have both tmcc & legacy like i said before i have been running both conventional engines & command control engines for over 4 years with the setup i currently have, 4 independent loops each with there own transformer & each with there own power master without ANY PROBLEMS until i bought this engine 2 weeks ago. I know it's hard give advice unless you are actually there so i understand people how may not full understand what i am saying we will figure this out eventualy,but keep those suggestions comming,i will keep you posted if i make any progress.

so try this disconnect all but track 2 from the legacy base so it is the only one to get power or the legacy signal if all works with the switch as you say worked before then sounds like a ground plane issue in regards to this one locomotive.

 

2. or could the r2lc be bad in this particular legacy engine what say you other legacy guru's could it be that simple?

 

$oo

Ok,i'll try to explain the problem in a more simple way,just try and picture this, 4 independent loops,each with there own transformer,& each with there own power master all power masters have the switch set to conventional mode which is necessary to operate both command & conventional engines & which is how i have been operating my layout for the past 4 plus years, now take problem engine & put it on trake 2,power up track 2 engine starts up without even putting in the ID #,it responds to throttle,but not any other commands, such as tower talk ,now take same engine and put it on each of the other 3 loops, power up each loop,engine does not respond until i put in ID #, then it starts up,& responds to all commands,so the big question is why does it work perfect on 3 loops & not on track 2? ,remember all of my other command engines work perfect on track 2,& 1 more thing,if i move the switch on track 2 power master to command mode,problem engine works perfect. I can't wait to find out why this is happening ,it's very interesting.

My thought is the electronics when being powered up do not have enough voltage to sense the command signal and then move to conventional operation thinking there is not command signal. When the engine is under way is it operating in the engine ID# mode or the TR# mode?

Ron

okay so other power masters are set to conventional correct?

 

so track #2 is only problem child so remove power master on that loop take the power master from loop#3 and see if problem remains if not, then the engine is fine but the power master is the culprit.

 

did that help I also read the manual for the train master and I always thought you had to set switch to either command or for conventional so as I understand it you actually can run both conventional\command on same track using the power master switch set to conventional. learned something new.

 

$oo

Ron , remember if i move the switch on the track 2 power master from conventional to command ,it works perfect & responds to all commands, so it is getting the signal with the switch in command mode, put the switch back to conventional it does not respond to any commands,again if i put this engine on another loop where the switch is in conventional mode, it works perfect & responds to all commands.

Ron is suggesting simply swapping the PowerMaster between loop2 and loop3 I believe.  If the problem follows the PowerMaster, you know what to fix.

$00  line if the power master was the problem,then why would all my other command engines work on this loop?   Confusing isn't,i know it's driving me nuts.

High John, i will give that a shot as weird as it sounds it may just work,besides i have nothing to lose, i"ll try tomorow .

ok re read your original post you say the engine takes off on it's own with switch set to conventional  which means the power master is delivering full power to track and the engine is not reading that the track is actually unpowered until the power is sent from the transformer.

now you say if you move the switch to command on the power master all is well so.

 

with the switch set to command put a conventional engine onto the track if it takes off then oh well. but if it sits silent then try starting it up if that works see if the problem engine works if both are now working then the switch on the power master is backwards.

 

can't hurt to try at least one more possibility dealt with

 

$oo

John has a good idea. Move the Powermaster and see if the problem follows it. The difference between the engine working when the Powermaster is in Command mode is that when the Powermaster is addressed it comes up at 18 volts instantly. In conventional mode it comes up slowly as you turn the throttle. When the voltage is coming up slowly the electronics in the engine OR THE POWERMASTER can behave oddly if there values are just a little off of spec. 

Ron

that is what I suggested 2 hours ago too I think were all 3 on same wave length as all else works as it should except on loop 2.

 

in re reading his original post it's the only thing that makes any sense that loop 2 power master is the odd man out.

 

this sure will be nice to see what the problem is true!

 

$oo

Debugging is simply the process of elimination.  If we remove the Powermaster as a possible culprit, we can look for other things.  Next, strange as it sounds, I'd use a different transformer for that loop as well.  Do that in a separate step.

I even gave you credit for the idea.

Yes we are Kind of. Except my thought is this. If a part in the engine is a little lower value and a part in the Powermaster is a little higher in value but both are within the part's proper value range you could create a perfect storm so to speak and the engine doesn't work correctly. Back in the early computer days you would see this show up in high density floppy drives. One floppy drive was reading and writing a little left of the track center and another floppy was reading and writing a little right of center the resulting floppy could not be moved from one drive to the other even though they both were within the tolerance range. 
Ron

gunrunnerjohn... if he was using a first issue cw-80 transformer could that be an issue with this problem just like to know for myself.

 

$oo

$OO line; All conventional engines work just fine on track 2 & all other loops, so i did as what was suggested, i switched power masters,i then powered up track 2 & engine did not start up until i addressed it by it's ID#,so i'm thinking problem solved, but to make sure i did it again,looks good so try one more time,shut down track 2,then problem returns,so it's not a power master problem.$OO  LINE asked if it was a first issue cw-80 transformer,so i looked under the transformer & it does not have the letter G,it so happens i have a spare cw-80 with the letter G on the bottom,so ihooked it up to track 2 then i powered up the track engine does not start up unless i addresse it by it's ID #,looks good so far so did it about 10 times right now it looks like it was a transformer problem, my thanks to $OO LINE for suggesting that it might be a transformer problem ,and to all others who responded you all were a a great help to me.

I'm glad your up and running again you might want to put a label on that cw-80 so you don't wind up with it back powering track again!

 

now how about showing us some photos or a video with all the trains in action.

 

 glad I was able to help have a great train day,

 

$oo

I forget to mention that the original problem seems to have been solved ,it still doesn't explaine why when i moved switch from conventional to command mode engine worked fine and remember all other command engines worked ok with problem transformer.

Here are some photos of my layout

Here are a few more pictures, in the previous pictures there were some pictures of our home made wine

Sorry, i put them in twice it's been a while since i posted pictures,i forgot how to do it.

What's the function of the extra track in this one?

 

,John, that extra track is a lift out section so i can reach the back of the layout it actually goes to the left of where i am standing.

how come your little helper isn't helping run the trains she looks to be old enough to run them really fast for you!!

nice to share running trains with kids isn't it.

 

$oo