Progress on my Santa Fe "Never Built" Fantasy Locos

excellent!

That monster is wild but cool! Nice work!

Amazing work yet again Lee. 

 

I have been pondering your boiler articulation problems, and unfortunately I think that I may have come up with another potential problem with a fixed length ball-joint type of connection. Have you considered the various motions that might be encountered in traversing an S-curve such as on a cross-over, or even a simple siding? Sorry for mentioning this if you have already considered it, but it seemed to be of enough significance to warrant mentioning.

Oh yes, it is a worry.  Frankly, I don't no what will work and expect it could take a while to find out.  I have one rather nasty S on my layout and the five-driver-set chassis gets through it great, but I really worry about what will happen with the boiler on it.  

Way cool Lee, it looks like it's going to be a great engine.

 

Tin 

Lee, you are definitely a man on a mission.  Looks cool though.

 

Rick

Very neat and really interesting engineering problem.

 

Looking at the sketch and watching the video, I'm guessing the running gear "articulates" (not sure if that is the best choice for terminology) between each 0-8-0 module (with the 2 wheel leading and trailing trucks moving separately)?

 

It looks like the tender works pretty much like two very closely coupled cars with the rotation point between the 2 0-8-0 modules.

 

With the engine portion, you have 2 points of articulation for the 3 0-8-0 modules, so that for an S curve as NQDY mentions, the 3 0-8-0 modules could be at different angles to each other. But, as drawn in the sketch, the boiler only has 1 point of articulation at the middle of the middle 0-8-0 module. Seems like something has to give.

 

I'm thinking you are on the right track with the middle point of articulation and floating the boilers. I think you are right about a ball joint as I was originally thinking just a vertical joint, but there is an also an up and down articulation.

 

But, I think you are going to need to attach the boilers so they have a ball joint at each end of the boiler.

 

The one in the middle is a fixed point attached to the middle 0-8-0 module and it attaches to the 2 boiler halves so they can twist up and down and side to side.

 

The other end of each boiler (at the front and rear cab ends) also has a ball joint that allows the boiler to twist up and down and side to side.

 

BUT, I think these two end joints are also going to need to be able to have a limited amount of "float". Perhaps some sort of slot that allows the joint box (or whatever holds the joint) to move forward and rearward slightly. This would be to account for the change in distance as the 0-8-0 modules turn in relation to each other. Each boiler half is a fixed length, but say for example when the locomotive enters a turn, there is now an angle between the first and the second 0-8-0 modules. The front boiler half forms the third leg of the triangle between the two 0-8-0 modules, but it can't remain the same length as when there was no angle between the two 0-8-0 modules, i.e. a straight line. Having a floating joint at one end (near the cab) allows for the constantly changing distance of the third leg of the triangle. Note, you could have the front half of the boiler overhanging on one side of the locomotive while the back half overhanging on the other side when going through S curves.

 

I don't know if I did a very good job of explaining it, and it's easy for me to propose an idea and then you have to try and figure out how to build it. But, given your skill and resourcefulness, you'll probably have it done in about half an hour.

i wonder if the "prototype" would have been able to generate sufficient steam to operate and, if it did, how far it would have gotten before exhausting the water supply. 

Lee,

I am attempting this build as well and like the photos of the live steam version that is what I will be going off of.  With three 0-8-0 drives close together it looks like you only need two boilers to make it work.  Fixed in the front and float the rear end looks like the way to go. I will know more when I get all of my parts in.

 

James

Talk about a difficult challenge, but if anyone is up to it, that would be you. Good luck in your build.

If you can build this, I should be able to build my long wanted 2-4-4-2.  We are all

following this with interest, and want to see how you engineer the mechanical

problems.

Progress in the last week was, inevitably, less than hoped for: good weather  meant a focus on yardwork and some projects outdoors, and I distracted myself with "Sharks" (separate post) which was a lot of fun.  Still, a bit of progress.

 

ATSF 6-4-4-4 cab-forward streamliner is looking good.  I somehow managed about six hours on this this week, it being my chief focus now.  I did some light tweaking of the relocated IR coupler: the coupling now fits in either of two positions, that shown, and one that reduces the gap to the tender to about 40% of that shown: just barely enough for 72" curves.  The modified  boiler shell at the rar and all is permanently installed along with all rear body modifications: you see styrene (white) and Bondo filler (red) which I will let harden for a few days before beginning finish work.

 

It won't be easy to see inside through the windows of the cab so I did not put a lot of detail in the cab, but I painted the instruments and made a scratch-built dashboard and console that fits nicely in the cab, so there will be some sense of details when one looks inside.  The figures are from the ten I harvested when I took apart the RTR 0-8-0 locos that make up the chassis for fantasy loco #2 (not much progress, but updated farther below).  

After thinking about the tender, looking at the various artis'ts renderings of what this would have looked like, and playing with SuperChief cars (which it would have pulled) behind it, I removed and put aside the PRR tender shell and began to "scratch build" a steamlined fuel-oil-and-water tender that looks more like those in the drawings.  The shiny top is from an aluminum Super Chief passenger car - an old silhouette car I decided to sacrifice: it has exactly the roof profile need.  Sides are from .10 styrene sheet, as will be the ends (yet to make).  I will lower the height about 3/16 inch from what is shown in the photo below: I have to relocate one item inside before I can do that.  Once the body is complete I will add some a few details: a few filler hatches and hoses, etc., but the whole idea is for a pretty smooth  look leading into the shape of the passenger cars themselves. 

 

The other fantasy loco, the 1913 Baldwin 2-8-8-8-8-8-2 pentuplex, saw no work at all this week worthy of pictures: I am concentrating on the 6-4-4-4 because I want the loco badly and it is not terribly difficult.  B y contrast, this is going to be a long slog that benefits from a lot of thinking and experimentation -  issues I have to solve.  This is a real challenge, and could take several months to get just right.  

• I played with - several experiments - the "hinges" for the flexible boiler. Not entirely successful but getting there.   I need to find something that "fits" (doesn't look out of place or take up room I don't have) and that hinges in one direction (side to side) with ease, but provides real rigidity in the up down movement, not permitting any vertical rocking and angle change, etc..  I'm still playing with/thinking about this.
• I've determining I have to make the chassis - all five 8-driver portions, heavier by around 4 to 6 ounces each, with as low a center of gravity as I can get.  Thinking about this too.

 Lee, your engineering skills are amazing. You are 

 a very talented man. What engineering degree do you have? Tom

Absolutely no progress to show on the 2-8-8-8-8-8-2, although I do have a new boiler hinge design in mind. FV-Trains was up from Florida and visited last Thursday and brought along his new Electroliner to run.  I studied the between-cars bellows on that model and it gave me ideas.

 

I've been focusing most of my energy on the streamlined cab-forward 6-4-4-4.  The pictures below are based on a photo taken yesterday, when it was still in primer.  It now has a new coat of Warbonnet type silver over everything but the cab, which I will let harden for a few days and them do red, yellow, black in that order.  I have three different possible paint schemes in mind as shown below, all variants on Warbonnet, of course.  Just curious which people like best - I don't promise to follow anyone's suggestions, but I will appreciate any input.  

 

Very creative Lee.  If I were to "vote" for one, it would be the traditional paint scheme at the top.

 

Alan

Version #1......traditional.......

I agree, #1.

One of a kind for sure. Vote #2 but everything under the red stripe should be red too. Tender also the difference makes it special.

I also vote for the traditional War Bonnet.

I have to agree with aterry11.  I don't think the "lobe" on the traditional warbonnet looks quite right in #1 (given the reduced surface area/height due to the cut-out for the drivers), and the altered styling in #2 looks much sleeker.  Because the pin-stripe is so high, though, painting everything underneath it red might look pretty good.

 

-Dustin

Lee...

 

Looking at that inspirational chapter in Worley's tome...

 

Your version #1 is on the 'right track' (pun intended), but I have to ask why you didn't follow a warbonnet design for this monster as suggested by Gil Reid, shown on page 379???  I think it would be especially honorific if you took not only the wheel arrangement and general architecture shown in that chapter, but maybe a couple of artistic cues.

 

Gil's version, looking much like the nose of a Fairbanks Morse #90....even somewhat 'sharky' like a Baldwin!...has pretty much the standard warbonnet red nose.  But notice that the lower red stripe becomes WIDE almost to the tender skirt bottom.  That would, methinks, add some drama and graphic chutzpah to the whole monster. 

 

Also, I noticed that Gil's artwork suggests an arched opening at the bottom of the engine skirt at both the front and back.  The usual yellow/black/red horizontal stripe follows the engine skirt edge precisely, but the red portion of the stripe widens both front and rear.

 

Another touch of graphic pizazz for this beast, albeit not part of Gil's rendition but seen in V.L.Smith's sketch at the beginning of the chapter, would be the large Santa Fe circle emblem on the side of the tender.  It's VERY reminiscent of the LARGE keystone on the side of some of Pennsy's most famous...and drop-dead gorgeous!!...steam creations, like the S-1.  That large circle emblem would certainly break up the long, wide silver expanse from the engine through the tender.  Besides, it's just what the management would have applauded in celebration of this, their finest Edselian accomplishment.  (Don't believe me?....check what they did to your beloved 4-6-4 Hudson #3461 after its historic Chicago-to-LA run on December 12, 1937!!....a DOUBLE huge circle herald plastered to the side of the tender!!!  Although there's no picture of this engine with the double herald in the Worley book, a single herald applied to the tender of an earlier class of their Hudsons, number 3452, is shown on page 303, lower right.)

 

Ah, well, I'm sure you and the boys in the paint department will come up with just the right lipstick for this.....!....engine.

 

Looking forward to the big reveal!!!

 

KD

 

I have no doubt that a Baldwin shark-like cab would be more of what might have been what this thing would look like, had it been built.  But: a) I have no Sharks I want to sacrifice to this project and I have so many Warbonnet F3s in the spare parts box, and b) I like the look of an F3 cab . . .  the drawing on p. 379 is good, I admit.

 

I do agree that is is difficult to fit Warbonnet to it as well as I'd like, but . . . the pity is, just to play with the design, I tried some ideas based on UP's Greyhound scheme.  THAT works very well on it.  I'm going to complete it in Warbonnett, but had it been UP, it would have looked awesome!

I love the way you think Lee.  You really know how to have fun with our hobby.

I sincerely appreciate all the feedback and suggestions.  Here are two revised paint schemes.  Comment  and critique is welcome - in fact hoped for - in particular I would like to get dkdkrd's feedback.  Both paint schemes are based on dkdkrd's suggestion to follow Gil Reid's artists conceptual tdrawing of the loco on page 379 in Iron Horses of the Santa Fe Trail.  I studied it carefully.  I prefer the top scheme a lot.  Particular points are:

• The red carried down to the bottom on the shrouds and tender looks really good, particularly if the drivers, machinery, cylinders and their background are going to be  black, as I think it would have been (I played with the image some to make this decision, plus I am not certain I can/should paint all of that silver).  I am convinced that is the way to go there.  The front three-axle truck probably ought to be black, too, which I will do (if it looks bad it's trivial to convert it back to silver).
• Note the Gil Reid paint scheme (top) breaks one rule I have seen followed in every Warbonnet loco I have ever studied: there is only one black line along the body: yellow and red meet, and do not have a black line between them as here.  Here, in the top picture, there are two as Reid drew it.  In the bottom picture, I remove one of the two lines so the "true" Warbonnet look is followed.  Why did Reid draw it with two lines? I think I know why: the yellow line here can be viewed as is a continuation of the yellow Santa Fe crest emblem on the front of the cab (I will mask that carefully and retain the entire thing in this paint scheme) - and that emblem is surrounded by black lines on all sides. 
• In order to both fit the black line and make it smooth and straight, I will have to use 1/16th inch black pinstripe tape for it, but can do the silver (done, see below) and red and yellow with paint.  I'm okay with that.

 

Here is the loco as of ten minutes ago, the silver now with nearly a day of hardening behind it.   I will let it harden through tomorrow morning and probably do the red in late morning. 

lee, where is the stack on this thing?  was the "prototype" stack flush with the body?

It was near the rear.  This loco is made out of a TMCC T-1 turned around, and like it, had a fairing stack in the shrouding. I figured what was good enough for one streamlined super-steamer was good for another.

Lee!

 

Love both revised versions!!  You've captured the essence of Gil's sketch very nicely!

 

Whereas you favor the first sketch, I rather like the second, having the broader yellow band.  But either way will be classy!  Gil Reid would have a smile as broad as the engine is long....for sure!

 

I especially like the deep red skirt on engine and tender.  VERY, VERY COOL!!  And, yes, the running gear should/would be black.  They might have put something on the wheel rims to impress the press at roll-out, but it would've quickly looked like poopy after a few hard miles and several lube jobs....IMHO, of course.

 

This will be one awesome hunk-a-hauler when fully decked out!  Yowee!!!

 

KD

 

Thank you, but I think I will go with the current plan, at least for now.

I like some parts of the second drawing, but I think it would look better if the yellow line remains the same width. The area where the yellow expands and protrudes forward looks off to me.

 

If this area is red, than the eye follows the diagonal line formed by the rear of the red area in the front to the diagonal line at the rear of the locomotive where the red starts, and then the red continues on to the tender.

It would be the same width.  I could not quite get my software to draw it perfectly the same. 

Sorry Lee, I did a really bad job of describing what I meant. Here is a drawing.

Oh,yeah,  I see.  That is a really good drawing.  And it does look sleek and pretty: very elegant and flowing.  The drawing by Gil Reid in Iron Horses shows the little Warbonnet squiggle forward, as I the silver does into the red on F3s, etc.  I tried to draw it.  I like you suggestion, want to think about it, but sort want to go with Gil Reid's version.  Thank you very much for taking the time!!

       
       

The only thing I would change is to have the Warbonnet "squiggle" comprise of parallel lines terminating in a constant radius half circle, not the ovoid shape in your rendering.

Lee, I agree, you should do a warbonnet rather than the design I posted.

 

Lee,

your progress on this project has been enjoyable to watch.  Nice work.

Check out this 4-6-6-4 that someone did in N scale>> SF 4-6-6-4 cab forward

That N scale version is cool too!!!

You are right, it is cool.  There is a lot I really like about it.  

Beginning to look like it should now.  Masking for the red took two hours (I did this with the cab on in order to exactly fit the color mashing, etc., so I had to do the windows, and I left the original front logo which was a bear to mask right at its edge, etc.).  Actually painting took maybe a minute or two is all.  Removing the masking carefully (while paint was still wet) took quite a bit longer than that.  I'm going to let the red dry for at least a full week before masking and laying down the yellow.