Protocraft couplers

It has been my experience that the mounting holes for couplers on Atlas freight cars are designed to accept ONLY Atlas coupler boxes. I have had to drill new mounting holes for Kadee couplers on every Atlas car I have. I would suspect you will have to do the same for your Protocraft couplers.

Check out this thread also, may have useful info for you:

https://ogrforum.com/t...08#38596415786695508

This might help...

It would fit the cars that have both the two horizontal or vertical mounting lugs...  The stock Atlas spacer (gray, on the right) is designed just for the twin horizontal lugs.

Here is the Gen1 spacer (for the twin vertical lugs), before I added the wings to accommodate the horizontal lugs, too!

Thanks,

Mario

Al

Hot Water is correct about drilling new holes. I have had to do the same thing with Kadees on my Atlas rolling stock. Weaver rolling stock on the other hand line up correctly. For your other post on using Atlas trucks. They may wind up sitting to high as in the waiting for that flood look

I've recently been working with Mario's Atlas spacers.  They are a great time saver, giving you a nice flat platform with which to work. 

Reading this thread earlier, I was thinking they might be an easy solution to the mismatched hole issue.

Got bolsters?

Thanks,

Mario

I must be lucky. I've been able to mount Kadee couplers to Atlas cars using the existing mounting holes. Using 2mm x 1/2" machine screws I keep the couple box up away from the deck as I screw it in. It draws the box down flush with the deck.

In some cases I had to do some MINOR filing on metal boxes with a thin rat-tail file to the insides of the center holes

I think the difference in Atlas hole spacing to Kadee is .5mm, very close.

The problems that I have always encountered with the coupler mounting holes provided on Atlas freight cars, is the whole Kadee gear box & coupler assembly sticks out from the end sill much too far.

This is exactly why I designed the spacers to use the two outside holes of the Kadee box, moving them inboard...

This should put the box flush with the end sill...

Thanks,

Mario

Yeah, that always bugged me about Atlas. Stole the concept from Kadee and then changed the mount spacing slightly so their coupler would be proprietary to their cars. Gotta love em.  

Nice job Mario!  Those are nice. 

butch

Hey Mario, I need a set of those bolsters for a scratchbuild that's been on the shelf for about a year now.  Could you post some dimensions when you get a chance?

thanks,

paul

I'll be bringing at least 3 styles of resin bolsters to Strasburg for anybody that needs them for conversions or scratchbuilding.

Protocraft is the only way to go for absolute scale models, but I suggest you start with Kadee, or even dummy couplers, and work your way into a few cars with Protocraft.  If you are truly serious with this level of detail, you need to explore Proto-48.

As a brand new O Scaler, you need fewer headaches, not more.  Stick with easy stuff - use those adapters, and install Kadee.

Opinion.

I was thinking the same thing in working with them.

What size drill should I use as well as tap drill number?

Some mount great while "crowding" 1 screw while the other mounts great.

Thank you,

Al Hummel

Dear Mario,

     Could you kindly tell the thread the cost of the Atlas Kadee adapters. Also,will you be having a table at the TCA York meet?

Thanks in advance. John P.Dunn Sr.

Gregg, 

Do you find any issues with the close coupling of the 743's on curves, since they were originally made for close coupling of locomotives? 

Butch

Posted separately...

Thanks for your interest!

- Mario

Thanks Gregg, that is about the radius I'll have and maybe a little less and I was concerned about coupler swing and boxcar ends hitting on curves.  I run 40ft too so this is very helpful. I like close coupling. 

Butch

Butch,

I'm experimenting with Protocraft couplers as I 'm just trying my hand at 2 rl O scale.

So far I've mounted Protocraft couplers on a 60ft tanker & a4750 cu ft cvd hopper. They couple on my 45" curve with mostly no issue sometimes I have to center them a bit but very seldom & they couple great.

My issue is getting the mounting holes lined up with the Atlas holes. I install the screw in the Atlas hole nearest the coupler then redrill the back hole. The new hole & Atlas hole are too close so this leaves too big a hole to hold the Proto screw in place. I happened to have some 2-56 screws in the tool box 7 that did the trick.I think I need to open the Protocraft draft box hole up instead on my next mount. But it's trial & error.

Now for us modern era modelers,if Protocraft would produce upper & lower safety shelfs as add ons,that'd be great.

Hope this helps.

Al Hummel

Or plug the holes with a piece of plastic before re-drilling.  Easy.

Alan - Protocraft is probably now committed to never, ever doing shelf couplers, no matter what the demand.

Norm made his position clear on that. The previous owner that sold Norm the Closure coupler,would have the shelfs developed by now,but it's no longer his so that ship sailed. The modern era makes up only 5% of the O scale market I'm told is the reason why.

What's the special development that Protocraft would NEVER dot he shelfs? Because I asked? I NEVER DEMANDED shelfs be made,if you intended that comment for me.(?) I only made the suggestion.

Al Hummel

Thank you thought of that myself. The next conversion should be done by working on Protocraft's coupler box,not the Atlas car itself. I've attached the Protocraft coupler box to Atlas tankers;it was a tight squeeze but it worked.

Thanks again,

Al Hummel

I did say " probably".  You can only pester folks so much before they stiffen up their position.  I have absolutely no inside information, but am willing to bet they no longer answer your queries about shelf couplers.  You have to give this up, or do the development work and production yourself.

Opinion.

bob2: since you have no inside information you know nothing! Alan has asked for shelf couplers and I totally agree with him. I would like to see them also. The more people ask the better chance of getting them. Alan does not have to give this up. Now that you that presented the old school attitude I will join Alan on his quest for Shelf couplers and do my part. "Bring on the Shelf couplers." I could use 20-25 pairs to start.

Stephen

Stephen,

He may have more inside information than you suspect.  If he doesn't, I do.  Norm isn't going to do a shelf coupler.

You know so much why don't you make them.  Maybe you can get rich.

Jay

Someone most likely Kadee WILL do the shelf couplers,IF interest continues. Lack of interest will delay or close the project,that's why I RESPECTFULLY keep pursuing avenues of hope in this area. I & others

"pestered" 2 companies in HO, again respectfully,for these couplers for years. The result-shelf couplers are available in plenty from both. I realize this ISN'T HO. The market is tailored to steam. So the chances are smaller in getting them here. I'm grateful for the Protocraft coupler also,even though it's not a true modern E design. It was modeled from another design of the E coupler. The most obvious difference is on the "thumb" side of the coupler. The "lightening holes" are longer. Same function as the Janey coupler just a small difference in design.

Everyone has there special interests,this is 1 of mine. Norm made his position clear. The modern modelers make up 5% of the O scale market,thus the investment in his eyes isn't worth it. Ok,that's alright it's his money. It doesn't hurt to ask,especially since he makes the type working coupler I want. I've been done asking from Norm, his position is clear,but others are still asking. I respect his opinion even though I don't agree with it.

What I don't understand is how a modeler in G scale made a double shelf coupler,a very fine model,like Kadee in design,& that scale's smaller than O scale. That market's even smaller,so if that can be done in G scale,the return in O should be much better. If Kadee is considering it,Kadee doesn't make items to lose money. It won't be their best seller,but there has to be enough profit to make it. I think Protocraft is missing a decent opportunity.

I'm just a modeler that from a financial point of view,should stay in HO,if I had finances to use for this,I'd take this & other product ideas to casting companies.

I didn't make my comment to a gentleman here to gripe about Protocraft,it was made with a smile on my face & a wish in the heart.

In my own way,I'm trying to get new products developed to advance O scale.

You & others want what you want,I & others want other things. If this site is restricted to steam & early diesel,then it should be stated as such in the wording of what this site is for,before joining. I find no such wording. This for the enjoyment & betterment of O scale.

If I've said too much on this & other subjects,meaning the couplers for 1,I apologize to the modelers here. I'm trying to thin that conversation out.

Respectfully,

Al Hummel

Alan: I have been around a long time and there is a growing trend toward modernization of late by mth, Lionel, and Atlas. I myself have been buying alot of modern equipment lately. Stephen

"I didn't make my comment to a gentleman here to gripe about Protocraft,it was made with a smile on my face & a wish in the heart."

  I don't think Protocraft is the guy you'd want making them anyway, he's a small niche company serving a limited interest group of modelers. Better someone like Kadee,Atlas, or Weaver with the resources to make them in sufficient quantities at a reasonable price. Atlas for instance could sell a lot of them on their modern freight cars over the coming years. Someday without doubt they'll show up as the older modelers die off and the commonly modeled  era moves forward.  .....DaveB

I think the shelf coupler thing is fascinating.  Between Alan and NW, there seems to be a market for as many as 100 pairs.  NW is not hung up on them, but will buy if they become available.  Alan, on the other hand, has said in other threads that without shelf couplers and certain ground throws, he is going back to HO.

My guess was that Protocraft got so tired of the idea that they simply no longer respond to shelf queries.  That is a guess, not a fact.

Fixating on such a small aspect of a larger hobby is probably not enhancing hobby enjoyment.  I think if we could let it rest for a while, probably one day, as Dave says, these things will appear on the market.  It will probably have to be done by a niche manufacturer who wants them for himself, since that is the way most of O Scale 2-rail works. Protocraft is a hobby, not a true business, but it is indeed a model for what Alan and NW want to do.

If you want them now, the only way to do it is to emulate Protocraft, take a loan out (small business?) and go for it.  The American way.  Otherwise, all the letters in the world from one guy will not make it happen - rather, it becomes counter-productive after maybe the second contact.

I believe bob2 is correct. Protocraft is not the company to make the shelf couplers. He is a small company that his product is not used widely enough and not well known to most O scalers. I do not use him and never heard of him until this website. I love the new Kadee scale couplers - less hassle from what I hear. I understand that proto 3 railers (if there could be such a thing) uses Kadee's also. Wider market. Atlas has made their own coupler and could easily do the shelf coupler. Stephen

Gene you hit the nail on the head (as so has NW2124 hinted).

Norm is a steam/transition era modeler and his products reflect that (our) interests.

Remember how long it took Kadee to make "scale" O scale couplers?  Why the delay - because unlike their HO brethren, O scalers were fine and dandy with the "old" Kadees which worked fantastic and looked 1950s'ish in appearance and fidelity.  

With that said, modern equipment is the future of O scale.   And if folks like Alan and the other modern modelers buck the general apathy for accuracy and fidelity in O scale and show genuine interest and financial support for accurate things like shelf couplers, manufacturers like Kadee or Atlas or MTH will rise to the occasion.

the general apathy for accuracy and fidelity in O scale and show genuine interest and financial support for accurate things . . . 

There is a general apathy?  Have you seen the things Key, Kohs, and even Lionel and MTH have been doing lately?  They make USH models look like stone age stuff.  I have a Lionel FEF that is so far ahead of my USH that it isn't even close.

You will not get a scale shelf coupler until there is a serious market for them.  The reason we have Protocraft scale Janney couplers is because norm wanted them.  I doubt his sales of scale couplers are breaking any records. The modelers buying Protocraft couplers are, of course, serious, but there are not that many of them.  If it wasn't for Protocraft, and Norm's enthusiasm, you would be stuck with Kadee and dummies.

I was hoping Protocraft would become the "Sergent Engineering" of O scale,as they make the only true to prototype coupler in O scale,except for San Quan,which isn't interested in the modern era either. By "true to prototype," I meant the knuckles open & close like the prototype. The development of the upper/lower safety shelfs for add ons to the existing coupler body,would be just what the doctor ordered. The Protocraft model in my experiments work GREAT. I could fill in the "lightening holes" with some,I believe it's called "epoxy," and add on the upper,lower,or both shelves,depending on the coupler's use,meaning if the coupler's to be used on tankers or standard freight & locomotives. This all done & we modelers modeling the modern era have a modern working coupler.

Norm's been approached by many not just me,but as stated,he's not interested & that's his privilege, definitely.

I took the idea to Atlas,but it was shot down by the R&D Dept,without even considering it.

 Kadee will use their own design naturally,not the Protocraft style of working coupler.

As for MTH or Lionel,I don't think couplers are their field of interest.

Another correct statement, among many made in replies on this subject,is the fact O scale seems devoted to steam. No disrespect in any way was meant by that comment, I love all eras of railroads.

One thing I found in a poll of modelers in O Scale,is the fact that 1/2 of modelers don't know what shelf couplers are,or understand their function. The modelers wanting them as well as not wanting them were even. I can't say if the other 50% of modelers were informed about shelf coulpers,if the outcome would change.

One thing that's certain;modelers wanting these couplers MUST speak out. Thank you to those who already have.

The ground throw switchstand has already been drawn in 3D. Anymore advances beyond that stage are unknown at this time.

Thanks to all participating in the discussion of this subject in the past & future.

Al Hummel

"I was hoping Protocraft would become the "Sergent Engineering" of O scale,as they make the only true to prototype coupler in O scale,except for San Quan,which isn't interested in the modern era either. By "true to prototype," I meant the knuckles open & close like the prototype."

  Protocraft is quite similar to Sergent, they both make limited production limited interest items. Protocraft has a broader range of products ranging from lathe tools to flextrack.  There have actually been other prototype style couplers in O scale over the years , operating by pulling working cut levers. My use of them clarified why they never become popular, they are just too much work to get and keep in good working order. The physics of a toy train is too much different from a real train. Kadee knows this and that's why they use the design that they do. For a working prototype style coupler the HO Sergents is about as good as they get yet it's still a pain to use with it's limited gathering range and no centering spring. Folks that are into super detailed cars and couplers don't usually run them as their primary hobby interest so they can tolerate the flaws that most mainstream operators won't.....DaveB