PRR fellas!…let’s build an S2!! Tales From Harmon Shops

One lucky S2!

Well now, what is this thing doing at the Harmon Shops? Was it getting ready to be scrapped and one of the New York Central guys said that they could get it running like Doc Brown's futuristic steam train from Back To The Future 3?

Enough of my silly jokes, this is something to behold, that is for sure. What can be done, got me on that Pat. Some of the PRR Scholars will have to weigh in with their overall knowledge, stats, and such to get the right information to you. That is, if they wish to comment.

Perhaps @CAPPilot Ron could offer some insight, or @Bob Bob Bartizek. I'm not sure of other PRR scholars, but I do know that these two usually have very great knowledge quite a bit. If they don't, I'm sure that they could grab some information from a friend about what is supposed to be under the hood.

Dave, I like the challenge, that’s the gas for me,…..I know nothing about an S2, how’s it supposed to look?….what’s the exhaust output supposed to look like?….what never done before feature can possibly be done that sets an S2 apart?…colors? finish? details?….let’s toss it all on the table, and everyone agree on what should be, ……and I’ll build it,….😉

Pat

@Norm Charbonneau modified/upgraded one of the old Lionel TMCC turbines. Maybe he can help regarding sounds/ electronics provided it can be sourced. I"m no Pennsy expert, but to my ears it sounded better than Lionels Legacy version.

Heres  Norms video. I will respectfully delete this post if he would prefer to handle it from here:

I don't have much in the way of knowledge about appearance. I assume it made less smoke at speed though since it ran more efficiently at speed. Not sure how that would be programmed though. I know they didn't chuff.

Either way, I'll be taking notes on what you do. There will definitely be some learning opportunity for some of us watching this thread!

@RickO posted:

I believe @Norm Charbonneau modified/upgraded one of the old Lionel TMCC turbines. Maybe he can help regarding sounds/ electronics provided it can be sourced. I"m no Pennsy expert, but to my ears it sounded better than Lionels Legacy version.

ERR has a turbine sound set Rick, it don’t sound too bad, ….and that tender looks like it’s got enough room to put a subwoofer in it,.…😛

Pat

@RickO posted:

I believe @Norm Charbonneau modified/upgraded one of the old Lionel TMCC turbines. Maybe he can help regarding sounds/ electronics provided it can be sourced. I"m no Pennsy expert, but to my ears it sounded better than Lionels Legacy version.

Ah, I forgot about Norm. Yeah, he is textbook researcher as evident when he is doing his videos saying how he got a new book to help with what he is working on. I'm sure there are several others that can help Pat. Let's see who comes out of the woodwork.

Thought you said S2....🤣🤣

This was purchased with no electronics. A future project to repower and add digital controls.

I'll be watching the steamer rebuild Pat.

Bob

At least the road number is correct Pat, that's the easiest thing on the list. If the coal load needs topping of, well, probably. I doubt it is cast in, but hard to see here. The red is probably right, but what do I know. Getting ready to eat leftover roast beef. I'll be back later. Norm, Ron, Bob, and any other PRR scholar, you got the brains.

Thanks for sharing Pat!  Did you happen to take any pics with the shell off?  I'm curious myself about "what's under the hood!"

@Ted S posted:

Thanks for sharing Pat!  Did you happen to take any pics with the shell off?  I'm curious myself about "what's under the hood!"

No, I didn’t take any pics of the driveline yet, but when we dive in, I sure will,……we’ll start with the basic upgrades, dipping the wheels, etc, so we’ll see what’s in there at that point,…

Pat

You need to make sure it’s really inefficient at low speeds, but runs like a top over 80 mph, just like the real one.

@harmonyards posted:

what about the smoke?….just a nice even steady stream? Or should it billow out ?……

Thinking a little more on this, and in reference to my previous comment, I wonder if you could arrange so it billows out at low speeds and thins to a wisp at higher ones.

Maybe @gunrunnerjohn could whip up an “Inverse SuperChuffer” circuit for your project?

Being primary meant for passenger trains, did it have a train phone antenna?

@rplst8 posted:

Thinking a little more on this, and in reference to my previous comment, I wonder if you could arrange so it billows out at low speeds and thins to a wisp at higher ones.

Maybe @gunrunnerjohn could whip up an “Inverse SuperChuffer” circuit for your project?

Technically, beings it gonna be command, one could just cut the smoke intensity down via the remote once she gets moving good,……making it automatic might be a bigger challenge then we think…..neat idea though…..

Pat

@Chuck Sartor posted:

Being primary meant for passenger trains, did it have a train phone antenna?

That can be added easily Chuck!…..we need the PRR heavy hitters to say yay or nay,…..

Pat

This could be helpful, a bunch of pictures on #6200 from the net.

Railroad Pictures Archive #6200 Index of Pictures

No Trainphone on the S2.  Quite a few good photos are in the video (really a slide show) below.  You can pause to see them better.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZWHnTmNTwAI

Some of the photos show smoke.  There are not many videos of the S2 in action, but here is a short one, departing Chicago with smoke.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hePTXxHsOMY

Voting for that "just out of the paint shop look": https://ogrforum.com/...2#170922644743520912

Anybody seen this short clip of the S2 in action?

Pretty low quality, but it clearly shows a lot of smoke at slow startup.

https://www.youtube.com/shorts/-L0whhrHrss

@harmonyards posted:

Technically, beings it gonna be command, one could just cut the smoke intensity down via the remote once she gets moving good,……making it automatic might be a bigger challenge then we think…..neat idea though…..

Pat

Not that difficult at all.  I have this little board that senses when you're moving by sniffing the motor voltage.  It closes a DPDT relay when you're in motion.  I've used it a number of times in the inverse sense, dropping the smoke volume when you stop moving.  You use the relay to switch in the appropriate number of dropping diodes to reduce the heat.

I believe Classic Trains magazine ran a feature on the S2 several years back.  Unfortunately I did not save that issue, but would be a good reference if you can find it.  I’m sure someone on the forum can identify the issue…

I wouldn't have much insight to add to this project. My ca. 2001 Lionel scale TMCC Turbine in the video above was sold a few years ago. I put Cruise M in it and hotted up the smoke unit. Also bumped up the 'blow rate' with an aux chuff switch on the tender wheels to make it more active sounding when underway. I have seen many of the 3rd Rails for sale but not for the price/condition that would make one worthy of an ERR upgrade. I actually have the TMCC S2 RS4 audio board in my collection. I bought a bunch of the PRR ones when they were still available. I must have thought at one time I'd get a 3rd Rail S2 but now I'd rather wait for a Legacy reissue.

From the video Bob posted coming out of Chicago, it looks like the smoke is constantly coming out. I read about the constant flow of steam and the "Whoosh" before, so there shouldn't be any smoke Chuffs. Almost like the old smoke units just pushing out smoke.

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

Not that difficult at all.  I have this little board that senses when you're moving by sniffing the motor voltage.  It closes a DPDT relay when you're in motion.  I've used it a number of times in the inverse sense, dropping the smoke volume when you stop moving.  You use the relay to switch in the appropriate number of dropping diodes to reduce the heat.

Well, I didn’t know that existed, …..and I wasn’t volunteering you for anything buddy!!…..I take creed of your motto,…..but since such a device exists, we’ll add it,….😉

Pat

@Dave NYC Hudson PRR K4 posted:

From the video Bob posted coming out of Chicago, it looks like the smoke is constantly coming out. I read about the constant flow of steam and the "Whoosh" before, so there shouldn't be any smoke Chuffs. Almost like the old smoke units just pushing out smoke.

Certainly no chuffs, but I think the smoke volume probably changes with speed.

Pat: The PRRT&HS Keystone Magazine did a pretty good article on it a few years back and I think I have it and could copy it for you if you like. Being a turbine I don't believe there would be any chuff the smoke would be a steady stream.

@RJT posted:

Pat: The PRRT&HS Keystone Magazine did a pretty good article on it a few years back and I think I have it and could copy it for you if you like. Being a turbine I don't believe there would be any chuff the smoke would be a steady stream.

Please, & thank you!….I knew there’s no chuff sound, but getting the smoke correct would be a big plus for accuracy,……also, any added details can help bring the model to life,….

Pat

Pat I will dig it out and scan it to you via the email in your profile if you like!

I wonder if the PRR S2 was a bit like "rolling coal".

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rolling_coal

Tons of smoke from the get go!

@RJT posted:

Pat I will dig it out and scan it to you via the email in your profile if you like!

Perfect !….thanks Rick!!

Pat

@rplst8 posted:

I wonder if the PRR S2 was a bit like "rolling coal".

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rolling_coal

Tons of smoke from the get go!

Oh I can make it billow the smoke, ….that’s not a problem,…..😁….if need be, I can make it chase you right out the room!…..I need to watch these videos, and see how the plumes pattern,…

Pat

Looks like just straight up in volcano form……and y’all are right, …..it makes a lot of smoke!…..good golly!….

Pat

Pat check your email.

@RJT posted:

Pat check your email.

Got it Rick, thanks ….I saved it to my IPad for reading after supper,….really appreciate it!!

Pat

Pat I sent a second email just a few minutes of some stuff I found.

@RJT posted:

Pat I sent a second email just a few minutes of some stuff I found.

Yep, got that too Rick, I backed up all of it …..many thanks!!..

Pat

What a great project! I can see this being a fun one to follow.

I wonder if the reason why the S2 produced so much smoke from the start was because of draft. When the locomotive starts there is not a strong enough draft to make the fire burn properly. As a result, more black smoke. When the locomotive gets going there is a big enough draft to pull enough air through the grates to feed the fire and properly burn the volatiles before they are wasted in black smoke. I could be wrong but just a hunch.

I do not know enough about the S2 to add to the detail conversation but maybe add a force drawbar. I cannot remember the exact name but the kind Lionel uses on their 21" passenger cars. This model would definitely look good with a close up tender.

Just as an aside, the PRR S2 direct-drive steam turbine was a near-success. It actually worked and did the job, though not without certain issues, and all new technologies or new applications of technologies have issues. Like the poppet valves tried on certain reciprocating steam locos, such as the PRR T1, the issues with the S2 turbine could have been mastered and reduced with further research, but the diesel-electric route ended all such efforts.

A worthy project for upgrade.

Even a NYC guy like me can't resist the PRR's trio of wild and crazy locos: the S1, S2 and T1. I have a model of each.