Good deal. I also like the clean look although I wouldn't mind a basic switch stand (if that's what they're called). I've seen them before but I'm not sure who makes them.
@BillYo414 posted:Good deal. I also like the clean look although I wouldn't mind a basic switch stand (if that's what they're called). I've seen them before but I'm not sure who makes them.
I think I would like the option of a switch stand as well. I don't know who makes them, either. One or two of the switches will get hand throws. That's because of inaccessibility to the area beneath the layout.
George
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You'll want to use a Caboose Industries 208s ground throw instead of that 107R. The 107R is rigid, and might not move the points enough for a complete throw, depending on the switch. The 208s has a spring action and a longer throw. They are all I use.
If there is not room directly under the switch to mount a Tortoise, you might be able to drill a small (less than 1/8") hole and mount a homemade bell crank. This can allow the Tortoise to be mounted away from the obstruction.
Loving the work George! And good luck making the industrial part of your layout!
I have a deep family connection down in that area and still visit it from time to time. (Several railroad relatives and mill workers in the family does that to ya!)
Seeing someone try to make it in any layout form always makes me smile. Especially these days with most if not all of the industrial presence gone or derelict.
I’ll hopefully be stopping by in the forums and this thread here and there to see progress.
Stay warm up there in B&LE land! - Neven
@Bob posted:You'll want to use a Caboose Industries 208s ground throw instead of that 107R. The 107R is rigid, and might not move the points enough for a complete throw, depending on the switch. The 208s has a spring action and a longer throw. They are all I use.
If there is not room directly under the switch to mount a Tortoise, you might be able to drill a small (less than 1/8") hole and mount a homemade bell crank. This can allow the Tortoise to be mounted away from the obstruction.
Good to know! I will make that change.
This particular switch is for a track (portraying the west-bound Panhandle mainline) that leads into a fake tunnel. In fact, only the Roadrunner (meep-meep!) can get through this tunnel. 
Wiley E. Coyote has no chance. 
The left branch of the wye heads south into the vicinity of Armour Packing before curving back north to meet up with the other track on the bridge.
George
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George,
I too used the 208s ground throws and they work well.
Here are some links to switch stands.
Joe, Do you have a photo of how the switch point connects to the switch stand and if you can mention is it glued or soldered (or something else)?
Several years ago a friend of mine on the Forum, David Vergun, built his own from copper. I followed his design on my last layout. While they were labor intensive to make, they worked and looked pretty nice.
Tom
Tom,
I don't. I have not installed any switch stands as of yet. Just have the ground throws in place. That's a future project.
Here is some more info on the switch stands.
I installed one of the switch stands from All Aboard Trains that Joe posted a link to. These are very nice stands. Lighted, true to scale and seem to work well.
I was dealing with already ballasted track. Just wanted a light to show the switch position. It’s a siding of the main used to switch out one car. It does not see a lot of use. I won’t say it’s delicate but appears to be geared more towards a Proto 48 modeler. Seeing it needs to rotate to change the light. It uses a bell crank. You need to notch out the Ross ties to gain enough clearance for it to rotate. Ideally you would do all this before you would install it. You could then carve it out from the underside where it wouldn’t be seen. I wasn’t about to rip up ballasted track. The next issue was mounting it. Seeing I carved away at the top of the tie. I really didn’t have many options. It’s designed to mount with small track spikes. The spikes would have gone where I carved out the tie. I ended up soldering the stand to some brass strips. I then screwed it to some basswood strips that I glued to the roadbed. I disguised everything as best I could with some bushes and weeds. The last thing you need to do is add a piece of spring wire to connect the throwbar and the bell crank. They now offer an adjustable threaded rod to do this.
The other thing I found it. It must be mounted on the straight portion side of the turnout. Not the diverging route to work properly.
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I have some of the ground throws. I think they're 208s. I really like them to be honest. I plan to go with ground throws up front and switch machines in the back.
Updated 1/24/2024:
Here are a few thoughts banging around in my head.
To date I have installed 4 Tortoise switch machines. In the process, I have learned a lot and solidified my installation process. I am feeling better and better about this decision. I have collected a bunch of notes as to preferences and tips. I am in the process of de-installing all of the Weirton Steel yard tracks that I put in place a few weeks ago. While that's regrettable, it has an upside as well:
- It allows me to fix (handle differently) a grade issue on the WSX Yard Track that would have definitely impacted running on this (future) well traveled track. I am going to remove all elevations for this north-south track. I will simply put all of the elevation changes on the Open Hearth spur. It's not like locomotives are going to actually travel into the Open Hearth. Instead, switchers will reach into the structure using an idler car (two if need be), so there isn't going to be a problem there (I think).
- When I first installed the Loads / Empty track, I forgot to put in an insulated section of track. I want to use a signal nearby to indicate track occupation to operators. This is my chance for a do-over.
- Most importantly, the re-do allows me to accurately locate the 5/8" holes for the Tortoise throw rod and to drill the holes from above. This creates a clean hole on top of the bench work and eliminates the need to lift the sub-roadbed to clean up the break-through debris. Trust me, it's a good thing.
More when I know it. 
George
Updated 1/24/2024:
I haven't made much progress on the items above, but I did prep some Tortoise switch machines with 0.032" wire.
Left - Here are 7 machines that have received slightly larger wire holes (done with a pin vise). On the right are the bent 0.032" throw wires, prior to cutting to the correct length.
Below is Switch No. 37. I originally intended to use a Caboose Industries #208S throw, but I could manage the very small bolts needed to fasten it to the long ties. In the end, I drove a #18 wire nail through the throw arm. It's not going anywhere soon.
More when I know it.
George
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I think I used Atlas track screws on my switch stands. It was a tight fit and I drilled a bigger pilot hole than I wanted to. But we're here now and things are working well!
Are you just using DPDT switches on the switch machines? I saw you had posted about them but never got around to replying to the topic.
@BillYo414 posted:I think I used Atlas track screws on my switch stands. It was a tight fit and I drilled a bigger pilot hole than I wanted to. But we're here now and things are working well!
Are you just using DPDT switches on the switch machines? I saw you had posted about them but never got around to replying to the topic.
Bill, I will be using DPDT toggles but they haven't arrived yet. The toggle will be on the fascia and I would like to have LEDs indicating the thrown position. Some turnouts will also operate PRR 7-light position signals. I know it can be done, but I just haven't worked that all out yet.
George
Updated 1/27/2024:
- Received my DPDT toggle switches today. These will find their way to the fascia to control the Tortoises.
- Worked on the circuit diagram for the East End Interlocking. With the DZ-1008a relays and DZ-2500 switch machines out of the equation, it will need a refresh. Enlisted some help there.
- Disconnected all feeders and track screws for tracks in the Weirton Steel Yard.
- Removed the shims that created the potentially troublesome elevation under the Weirton Steel Yard track.
- Installed the Tortoise for Switch No. 35. Left: This shot from below indicates the difficulty. I had to fasten the machine to the 2x2s and use an extra long throw wire. But it worked! Right: Switch No. 35 in place.
- I drilled the hole for the throw wire for Switch No. 16. This was done by holding the track up out of the way with one hand and running the drill with the other. All the while I was kneeling on the bench top.
- Here's a look at Switches 17, 18, and 19. They have had the spots for throw holes marked and will be worked on tomorrow after Switches 13, 14, and 15 are completed. The Loads / Empties track (running to the left beyond the tower) will get an insulated rail as well.
More when I know it.
George
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Sounds like you are on the right track now, George!
Updated 1/29/2024:
Work continues on Switch No. 36. Because the switch is already fastened down, ballasted, and in a tricky location, I was not able to pull it up and drill a hole for the spring wire. The underside of the bench work in that location is also crowded and very difficult to reach. Instead I am using the nearby hole drilled for the DZ-2500 wire bundle. It is a bit more convenient, but not the optimum solution. In fact, I ended up making that hole larger to accommodate the amount of travel needed.
In the photo below, the place where the Vinylbed subroadbed has been cut away is visible.
In the next photo, the enlarged hole is visible.
More when I know it.
George
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I always marked my hole for the rod and then removed the turnout and drilled the hole. I can’t remember what sized bit I used. Then I would elongate the hole using a Dremel and a bit similar to this. You would end up with sort of an oval.
if your dealing with a turnout that’s already in place such as a ballasted one. As long as you have a hole to work with. Say just at the throwbars end. I think you could use a bit like this working from under the layout. If it’s anywhere near the layouts edge. You probably can reach under from above with your hands and see better as to what your doing. As you only need to move sideways to carve the wood away. You just have to be aware of the throwbar being just above where your carving out the slot. The last thing you want is to damage that.
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@Dave_C posted:I always marked my hole for the rod and then removed the turnout and drilled the hole. I can’t remember what sized bit I used. Then I would elongate the hole using a Dremel and a bit similar to this. You would end up with sort of an oval.
if your dealing with a turnout that’s already in place such as a ballasted one. As long as you have a hole to work with. Say just at the throwbars end. I think you could use a bit like this working from under the layout. If it’s anywhere near the layouts edge. You probably can reach under from above with your hands and see better as to what your doing. As you only need to move sideways to carve the wood away. You just have to be aware of the throwbar being just above where your carving out the slot. The last thing you want is to damage that.
I understand what you're saying. This turnout is the most difficult one to retrofit to a Tortoise and I was going to just go with a hand throw. The underside is a jumble of uneven 2x2s and wiring. So drilling downward at the spot between the long ties guarding the throw bar just wasn't a realistic option. Drilling upwards from below poses a risk as well. That's why I opted to use the hole a bit further away. I think it will work. It's just been a struggle.
We'll see later today.
George
I committed to Tortoise right from the beginning of my layout in the late 80’s. While attending the Amherst show in the early 90’s. I saw a demo of Del Aire pneumatic switches. They had a regulated toggle switch and they would move at the speed of a Tortoise. They were surface mounted on the ties but just a small cylinder. One small hole to was needed in the roadbed to fish the hose through. I think back then the DZ switch machines weren’t there. Ross or Curtis just supplied the turnout. I know some used the NJI solenoid type ones.
The Del Aire ones certainly got my attention. If I was starting at that point I might have gone that route. I believe they still have a small following. But not sure if there’s much product out there. I don’t know if the fact that you needed a small compressor, it was a propriety setup or just operators preferred working with wiring. It never really took off. It combined good looks, easy install and the slow movement.
@Dave_C posted:I committed to Tortoise right from the beginning of my layout in the late 80’s. While attending the Amherst show in the early 90’s. I saw a demo of Del Aire pneumatic switches. They had a regulated toggle switch and they would move at the speed of a Tortoise. They were surface mounted on the ties but just a small cylinder. One small hole to was needed in the roadbed to fish the hose through. I think back then the DZ switch machines weren’t there. Ross or Curtis just supplied the turnout. I know some used the NJI solenoid type ones.
The Del Aire ones certainly got my attention. If I was starting at that point I might have gone that route. I believe they still have a small following. But not sure if there’s much product out there. I don’t know if the fact that you needed a small compressor, it was a propriety setup or just operators preferred working with wiring. It never really took off. It combined good looks, easy install and the slow movement.
As complicated as building a layout is, I can't imagine going looking for more complexity. I remember reading about the Del Aire system and thinking that's just more complexity than I need. I mean, electrical wiring and compressed air tubing under the layout? To each his own, but for me - no thank you. I'm a big believer in the KISS principle. And where I've deviated from it, I have paid the price - as I am doing right now.
You made the right choice. I wish I had done so sooner.
George
Updated 2/01/2024:
In a word - Victory!!! 
Today, I finally got the Tortoise installed and operational for Switch No. 36! After a week of banging my head against the bench work, reaching around inconvenient upright supports, and wrestling obstructive wiring, I managed to re-locate the Tortoise to a straightforward location and install the mechanism for the turnout. This installation was probably 10X harder than one done as the track is being laid. At times, it felt like I was building a ship in a bottle. 
In the end, it was necessary to partially remove the fascia to access the underside of the layout near the turnout. The track diagram in the photo will be removed and redone. And as the new switch machines will require changes to the signal wiring, I plan to leave the fascia off for a while. I'll be back under there soon.
Here's what it looks like from above (wire still to be trimmed)...
And from below...
Over the weekend, I plan to install a few more switch machines. These are expected to be much easier.
More when I know it.
George
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@G3750 George, glad you got that difficult machine in place and working. There is no question that the tortoise machines are the most realistic in my opinion. My only problem is that I have my yard planned to be on a lower level under my main lines up top. I have planned for 8 inches of clearance, but I still don’t think that the tortoise will fit without the possibility of my trains in the yard hitting them. I’m gonna play around with the position of the machines and see. Glad your progress has been positive! Keep it up!
Thanks for sharing….
Mike
@LT1Poncho posted:@G3750 George, glad you got that difficult machine in place and working. There is no question that the tortoise machines are the most realistic in my opinion. My only problem is that I have my yard planned to be on a lower level under my main lines up top. I have planned for 8 inches of clearance, but I still don’t think that the tortoise will fit without the possibility of my trains in the yard hitting them. I’m gonna play around with the position of the machines and see. Glad your progress has been positive! Keep it up!
Thanks for sharing….
Mike
Mike, there is a way to do what you want. I'll post some photos tomorrow.
@LT1Poncho posted:@G3750 George, glad you got that difficult machine in place and working. There is no question that the tortoise machines are the most realistic in my opinion. My only problem is that I have my yard planned to be on a lower level under my main lines up top. I have planned for 8 inches of clearance, but I still don’t think that the tortoise will fit without the possibility of my trains in the yard hitting them. I’m gonna play around with the position of the machines and see. Glad your progress has been positive! Keep it up!
Thanks for sharing….
Mike
Thank you, Mike! I believe there is a mounting mechanism that flips them on their sides. You might look into that. Maybe that will buy you enough room.
George
I want to thank@BobBob and @Dennis-LaRock for their encouragement and advice.
George
Congratulations, George!!! It looks great! Have you scheduled an appointment with your chiropractor yet?? 
@Mark Boyce posted:Congratulations, George!!! It looks great! Have you scheduled an appointment with your chiropractor yet??
No, but I am getting my head examined.
As one of my friends in the NMRA division reminds me, "model railroading is fun".
Yes, yes it is. Sometimes.
George
@G3750 posted:No, but I am getting my head examined.
As one of my friends in the NMRA division reminds me, "model railroading is fun".
Yes, yes it is. Sometimes.
George
Due to nerve issues I once had my head examined! Doc said he didn’t find anything. For real! 😮
@Mark Boyce posted:Due to nerve issues I once had my head examined! Doc said he didn’t find anything. For real! 😮
I don't think they would find anything inside my head, either.
George
Updated 2/04/2024:
As previously noted, Switch No. 36 has been installed. I also got No. 35 and No. 15 done. No. 16 is very close. In addition, I have been busy revising the wiring conventions for the electrical buses. We are waiting on some wire information before placing a couple orders. There will end up being:
- 15 VAC Signal bus (for the MTH PRR signals, the DZ-1060 signals, and the DZ-1010 and DZ-1020 crossing gates. This will also provide power for the 12 DZ-2500 switch machines in the Staging Area.
- 12 VDC Tortoise Switch bus
- 12 VDC Accessory & Lighting bus
The first photo shows Switch No. 36 beyond the signal bridge, which also had to be lifted and then re-installed on the layout.
Next, we see Switch No. 35, just beyond the westbound mainline (which is not fastened in place).
This is Switch No. 15. The rest of the Weirton Steel Yard track has been lifted. To the left is the curved turnout, Switch No. 16.
The Blooming Mill tracks proceed north from Switch No. 16 to the Staging Area exit track.
It's still going slower than I would like, but I am making better speed. More when I know it.
George
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Looks good
@Mark Boyce posted:Looks good
Thank you! I agree. I am much more comfortable with the process. The right tools help as well. At Bob Bartizek's suggestion I picked up a set of forstner bits. These are much more efficient and controllable than paddle bits, which I was using. I am really hoping to get the existing switches and track back in place before the end of the week.
George
I haven’t heard of forstner bits before. Better tools make for an easier and better job.
@Mark Boyce posted:I haven’t heard of forstner bits before. Better tools make for an easier and better job.
Neither had I. Bob Bartizek put me on to them. Here's a look.
Left: a traditional drill bit. Center: Forstner bit. Right: a "paddle" bit.
Hope that helps. A set of 7 Forstner bits (1/4", 3/8", 1/2", 5/8", 3/4", 7/8", 1") can be had at Harbor Freight (I went to the Monaca, PA store) for $7 or $8. They cut nice smooth round holes and provide much more control than paddle bits.
George
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Yes I see how it would be much easier to use than the paddle bits. I have about 3 paddle bits and have never liked using them. There is a Harbor Freight here in Butler. Thank you.
@Mark Boyce posted:Yes I see how it would be much easier to use than the paddle bits. I have about 3 paddle bits and have never liked using them. There is a Harbor Freight here in Butler. Thank you.
My pleasure.
George
Updated 2/05/2024:
Life got in the way a bit today, but I did get a few things done. I worked on procuring some wire. And the throw holes for Switches 14 and 13 have been drilled. The one for #14 is hidden by the long ties. Number 13 has the mess around it.
Here's a wider angle shot of the area in which Switch No. 14 has been moved to one side. Tomorrow we'll install the Tortoises and reassemble the track.
Here's the view from the opposite end of the yard.
I didn't show it, but I also installed an insulating track pin in the Loads / Empties track as well as a signal wire for it. That bit of rework means that cars occupying the Loads / Empties interchange track will trigger a PRR 7-light position signal at its southern entrance.
More when I know it.
George
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Updated 2/06/2024:
- Exchanged e-mails with several electrical supply houses in the vain attempt to purchase 16 awg 2-conductor stranded hook-up wire in various color combinations (green / white or green / yellow were my preferences). Kept getting "send us a spec". Well, sorry. I don't know how to write a spec for wire and don't speak the language. My decoder ring is permanently set to "Drink more Ovaltine".
So, they lost and someone on eBay won. Sheesh, it shouldn't be that hard to do this. - Installed Tortoise switch machines for Switches 14 and 13. The 2 photos show the above layout view and the one below the bench work. None of the switch or signal related bus work has been started at this point. I am still track buses around to connect with the track feeder pairs. That's going to take awhile.
More when I know it.
George
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