PRR Panhandle 2.0

You may recall from our discussions that I originally wanted to use about 2" of foam so I can vary the landscape @G3750. That didn't work out in the scheme of things so raising the ground is also my plan. I misunderstood earlier plus I was late to reply haha

@BillYo414 posted:

You may recall from our discussions that I originally wanted to use about 2" of foam so I can vary the landscape @G3750. That didn't work out in the scheme of things so raising the ground is also my plan. I misunderstood earlier plus I was late to reply haha

Bill, I'm guessing you found carving a 2" deep foam sheet difficult, slow, and / or annoying (that would be my opinion )?

I must confess that I totally lack the patience to wield a surform tool for any length of time.

George

@G3750 the threat of that foam saw dust was a major deterrent. But I also built my table too tall and decided not to go back and fix it. The land was flattened anyway in most cases.

@BillYo414 posted:

@G3750 the threat of that foam saw dust was a major deterrent. But I also built my table too tall and decided not to go back and fix it. The land was flattened anyway in most cases.

I certainly understand that.  The stuff goes everywhere and sticks to everything.  

Even though it is messy, I much prefer the quilt batting approach (blocks of foam, Great Stuff Gaps & Cracks, low-loft quilt batting, latex paint, ground foam and then trees, shrubs, or grass) to scenery.

George

Updated 1/3/2024:

"It's tough to remember your plan was to drain the swamp when you're up to your *** in alligators." 

The original plan was to test the track work in the Weirton Steel Yard.  But, it turns out that I need to wire up the switches (one of the disadvantages of the DZ-2500C is that it requires power to be thrown).  And, as I was starting to run the bus for that (Black: common, Red: hot, White: data), I realized that I would also need to decide on locations for the signals (they run off the same 15VAC bus).  So that is what I have been working on.

Below is the signal guarding the entry to the Staging Area (the straight track going into the divider).  Turns out that placing the signal required me to figure out the track geometry.  I don't have Switch No. 10 yet, which would have finalized this, so I had to test fit track.  The good news is that I found a nice, previously cut big curve that works for this spot.

In the photo below, the signal on the left is for the mainline (westbound).

I also placed the mainline signal in front of Switch No. 35.  These are all DZ-1060 PRR 7 light position signals.  Hopefully, I will get to switch bus installation soon.  I do anticipate some running issues with the yard track, so testing is really important before any scenery or other structures are added.

More when I know it. 

George

Updated 1/4/2024:

Not a ton of progress today, but I did run sections of Switch Bus #2 (16 AWG - Black, Red, White for data) under the layout and wired DZ-1060 PRR 7 light position signals.  At this point the signals only have power; they will be activated by the switches and I have yet to connect those to them.

The signals for Switch #10 (foreground right) and Switch #35 (background left) are lit.

More when I know it.

George

Updated 01/05/2024:

One of the unanticipated consequences of simplifying the layout to gain more aisle space (changing from O72 to O64 curves in the Weirton peninsula, eliminating the complex tracks and switches in the Weirton Steel Yard) has been the changes to the DZ-2001 switch buses.  The Panhandle uses three DZ-2001 Data Wire Drivers (a serial output device attached to the TMCC Command Base) to send TMCC commands to individually addressable DZ-2500c switch machines.  At one point, there were 43 switches on the layout.  The changes reduced that number to 39.  The simplification has prompted a re-organization in the middle of the layout, which is controlled by Switch Bus #2.

Along with the decrease in number has come the change in switch groupings.  Each DZ-2001 has a data wire (white in my color coding scheme).  If one of a string of serially connected DZ-2500 switch machines gets into a confused state, debugging becomes a process of eliminating switch machines until only the problem child remains.  To make that easier, I have limited the number of switches that can be grouped together.  This is done by sending a data wire to no more than 4 switches.  I use an Atlas slide switch to do this.  A photo might better illustrate the process.  Here’s the old set up on the power distribution panel.

That's Switch Bus No. 1 (District 1:  River Route and District 2:  Steubenville) in the grouping of slide switches on the left.  Switch Bus No. 2 (District 6:  Weirton Junction Yard, District 7:  Weirton Steel Yard) is the large set of slide switches in the center.  And Switch Bus No. 3 (District 8:  Staging Area) is at the right.  The three DZ-2001s are at the immediate right of the TMCC Command Base.

With the reduction and reorganization of switches, I am in the process of reworking these groups, specifically for Switch Bus No. 2 (center of the above photo).  Of course, this also involves re-routing and labeling of data wires under the layout.  That work is still in progress.

More when I know it.

George

George, even though I worked in electronics for 43 years, the above post gave me a headache.    I'm going to go take an extra strength Tylenol and a nap. 

@Mark Boyce posted:

George, even though I worked in electronics for 43 years, the above post gave me a headache.    I'm going to go take an extra strength Tylenol and a nap. 

I apologize for that.  I'm sorry the quality of work is so distressing that it caused you a headache.

Can you imagine what's going on down here under the layout?   

George

@G3750 George thanks for sharing your wiring dilemma. While I am terrible at electricity (only B I got at Penn State was electrical Physics LOL), I still find the wiring and the electrical problems on my layout the most fun and satisfying part of it for me. I guess because I’m so bad at it. I love learning to use relays and buses and terminal blocks etc. As I am now wiring my new layout expansion, I’m trying to not make the same mistakes I made wiring the original part of my layout. That side looks like a spider web but is labeled well. Some of the forum members who have invented little relays and boards to improve function of switches and car lighting have taught me a ton. I have no doubt you will figure out your reorganization. Keep us posted!

Mike

@G3750 posted:

I apologize for that.  I'm sorry the quality of work is so distressing that it caused you a headache.

Can you imagine what's going on down here under the layout?   

George

I’m sorry .  I exaggerated on the Tylenol.  I did have to read your description a couple times.  My head was already hurting and I take a nap most afternoons.  However, it reminded me of the quandary of how to change AIU ports when I added more tracks.  I haven’t gotten to wiring 3 additional DZ1000s.

@Mark Boyce posted:

I’m sorry .  I exaggerated on the Tylenol.  I did have to read your description a couple times.  My head was already hurting and I take a nap most afternoons.  However, it reminded me of the quandary of how to change AIU ports when I added more tracks.  I haven’t gotten to wiring 3 additional DZ1000s.

Don't be.  It is confusing.  And I'm in the eye of the hurricane. 

George

@G3750 posted:

Don't be.  It is confusing.  And I'm in the eye of the hurricane. 

George

😄 Well put.

@LT1Poncho posted:

@G3750 George thanks for sharing your wiring dilemma. While I am terrible at electricity (only B I got at Penn State was electrical Physics LOL), I still find the wiring and the electrical problems on my layout the most fun and satisfying part of it for me. I guess because I’m so bad at it. I love learning to use relays and buses and terminal blocks etc. As I am now wiring my new layout expansion, I’m trying to not make the same mistakes I made wiring the original part of my layout. That side looks like a spider web but is labeled well. Some of the forum members who have invented little relays and boards to improve function of switches and car lighting have taught me a ton. I have no doubt you will figure out your reorganization. Keep us posted!

Mike

Mike, while the work satisfies my OCD (particularly the adherence to the plan), it is tedious and a bit physically challenging.  The plan looks great until you realize how much effort is required to get wires stripped and into the Posi-locks or slide them into the Euro-style terminal blocks and screwed tight.  Plan wise, we're fine.  And of course, it's taking longer than I wish.  My ultimate goal is to get things wired so that I can test out the track (levelness, conductivity).  We're still away from that.

George

I never minded wiring, if the work was in an easy to get to spot.  IT was that way at work way beck when and even in my latter (less flexible) years.  Now the task is daunting underneath a layout.  I did what I could to make it as easy as possible, with long wire tails that I could stand or sit at the layout edge, make the connection, and drop it under the layout.  The TIU/AIU panel was fine except the connecting ports are so close together, it was hard to tell which one I wanted.  I had that problem in the latter years of working as a technician before moving into engineering in my 50s.

@Mark Boyce posted:

I never minded wiring, if the work was in an easy to get to spot.  IT was that way at work way beck when and even in my latter (less flexible) years.  Now the task is daunting underneath a layout.  I did what I could to make it as easy as possible, with long wire tails that I could stand or sit at the layout edge, make the connection, and drop it under the layout.  The TIU/AIU panel was fine except the connecting ports are so close together, it was hard to tell which one I wanted.  I had that problem in the latter years of working as a technician before moving into engineering in my 50s.

Mark. I recall the photos of your control board, and the wiring was organized and beautiful!

Mike

@LT1Poncho posted:

Mark. I recall the photos of your control board, and the wiring was organized and beautiful!

Mike

Mike,

Thank you.  My under the layout wiring is not so organized because of the back and neck saving method I used.  It isn’t as neat as George’s.  My hat is off to him!

@Mark Boyce posted:

Mike,

Thank you.  My under the layout wiring is not so organized because of the back and neck saving method I used.  It isn’t as neat as George’s.  My hat is off to him!

Mark, you are too kind.  As you know, the "neatness" (or something that passes for that) is a matter of self-preservation.

And I recall those AIU wiring holes.  Ugh.    I could barely do those in my flexible years.

George

Sometimes, unbidden, thoughts come to me about things.  In this case, I had an idea about operations.  I always envisioned the following on the Panhandle (these are off the top of my head - they will need some deeper thought):

• 1-4 mainline train engineers (and perhaps their accompanying conductors (managers of the switch lists)
• 1-2 Weirton Steel switcher engineers to do intra-mill switching
• 1 tower operator at Weirton Junction to manage that yard and Standard Slag
• 1 Staging Area operator to manage the make-up / break-up of trains or the sending / receiving of through trains
• 1 Steubenville area engineer to manage the switching at Armour Packing and Federal Paperboard
• 1 engineer running a train on the River Route

Today, it occurred to me that I could also have an operator at the tower in Weirton Steel Yard to manage that operation and direct the actions of the 2-3 WSX switchers.  I could put a mini-control (Switch machine push-buttons) at the bottom of this diagram.

That tower operator would control switches 9, 10/35, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, and 19.

Thoughts?

George

George,

Yes, in the name of fitting a lot of relays (circuits) in a small space, the connection ports become smaller and/or closer together.  It's not bad if they are right in front of you, but not if you have to strain to see.  I would have been better off sitting on the floor than on the stool for some, but those days are gone. 

I don't recall ever seeing a list of projected operators for the layout, though you have probably noted some ideas on that in the past.  The count above is for a minimum of 7, which would be great to be a part of seeing the layout utilized to that extent.  How many of those operators would be located in the opening behind the big mill backdrop?

Mark, there would be only 1 "man behind the curtain", er divider.

George

Updated 1/7/2024:

In

In thinking a little more about it, the operators might look like this:

• 1-4 mainline train engineers (and perhaps their accompanying conductors (managers of the switch lists)
• WSX Tower Operator responsible for:
  • 1-2 Weirton Steel switcher engineers to do intra-mill switching
  • Switches 9, 10/35, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, and 19
• WC (Weirton Junction) Tower Operator responsible for:
  • 1 switcher for Weirton Junction Yard
  • Switches 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8
• 1 Staging Area operator to manage the make-up / break-up of trains or the sending / receiving of through trains
• QN (Steubenville) Tower Operator responsible for:
  • 1 switcher for Armour Packing and Federal Paperboard
  • Switches 37, 38, 41, 42, 1, 2
• 1 River Route train engineer

I also thought about the positioning of the Weirton Steel Yard tower.  It will face north as shown below.

I will end up giving it an interior as well as a paint job.  It looks pretty empty right now.

Also got in some more wiring.

More when I know it.

George

Updated 1/10/2024:

As you may know from reading the thread in the Electrical sub-forum, I am in the process of changing switch machines.  The thinking today is that the Staging Area will retain its 12 DZ-2500c switch machines.  But the remainder of the layout will get Tortoise switch machines.  I am in the process of learning how to wire and install these.  I am trying to gauge what electrical (bus) changes will be needed.

More changes to come and more when I know it.

George

Updated 1/14/2024:

OK, so this post will recap what I’ve learned and my decisions around the switching and signaling changes for the layout.

New (to me) information:

• Tortoise switch machines operate on 12 vdc.
• Z-Stuff DZ-1060 PRR 7 light position signals will operate on 12-18 volts, either AC or DC.
• MTH 11-11030 PRR signal bridges will operate on 12 volts, either AC or DC.

As a result, here are some decisions:

1. Of the 3 DZ-2001 Data Wire drivers on the layout, I am planning to eliminate 2.  I will retain the DZ-2001 Data Wire driver for the 12 switches in the Staging Area.  These maybe replaced later with a combination of Tortoises and Caboose Industries hand throws at some time in the future, but for now I am leaving well enough alone.  The remainder of the switches, about 27 (see exception below) will be replaced with Tortoise switch machines driven by a 12vdc bus.
2. Switch 36, due to its location, will be replaced with a hand throw.  A micro contact switch will be installed to drive the signals.  This switch is in a very tight and inconvenient location.
   
3. All DZ-1060 PRR 7 light position signals will be powered using that same 12 vdc bus identified in #1 above.
4. Because the MTH PRR signal bridges (30-11030) will run on DC, I will replace all the DZ-1008a relays with DC relays. This will require a change to the circuit that handles the 3 inputs to the signal bridge at western end of the Ohio River bridge.
5. All the above will cause the disconnection of the existing bus from the K-Line PowerChief 120F transformer.  The bus will be connected to my regulated switching 12vdc power supply.

Much as I hate re-work and back-tracking, this has to be done now.

More when I know it. 

George

George,

You can still run the signal on DC with an AC relay.

It does sound like a lot of rework.  

@Mark Boyce posted:

It downs sound like a lot of rework.  

It is, but if it doesn’t happen now it never will.  And I will be dealing with climbing up on the layout 10 years from now.

George

@John H posted:

George,

You can still run the signal on DC with an AC relay.

No doubt, but my goal is to not run 2 electrical buses if I can repurpose the one existing one.

George

@G3750 posted:

It is, but if it doesn’t happen now it never will.  And I will be dealing with climbing up on the layout 10 years from now.

George

You are right.  Now is the time to do it.

Updated 1/18/2024:

Since the last posting I have been making progress - some of it has even been forward progress. 

The last few days have been spent acquiring materials in preparation for the installation of Tortoise switch machines.  Here's what's been going on:

• All 15 installed DZ-2500 switch machines have been removed from the main section of the layout (the Staging Area will retain their DZ-2500s).
• Signal (white) wires for the affected DZ-2001 Data Wire Drivers are being removed from under the layout.
• My 12VDC power supply (Meanwell LRS-150-12) is in the process of being mounted on the Power Distribution panel.
• I have acquired 13 new Tortoise switch machines as well as the music wire, a drilling template, and some ZipZ edge connectors.
• Neal Schorr @PRRMiddleDivision was kind enough to visit yesterday and help me install my first Tortoise switch machine.  Thank you Neal!!!  I learned a lot and feel much better about the process as a result.

More when I know it.

George

@G3750 posted:

Updated 1/18/2024:

Since the last posting I have been making progress - some of it has even been forward progress. 

The last few days have been spent acquiring materials in preparation for the installation of Tortoise switch machines.  Here's what's been going on:

• All 15 installed DZ-2500 switch machines have been removed from the main section of the layout (the Staging Area will retain their DZ-2500s).
• Signal (white) wires for the affected DZ-2001 Data Wire Drivers are being removed from under the layout.
• My 12VDC power supply (Meanwell LRS-150-12) is in the process of being mounted on the Power Distribution panel.
• I have acquired 13 new Tortoise switch machines as well as the music wire, a drilling template, and some ZipZ edge connectors.
• Neal Schorr @PRRMiddleDivision was kind enough to visit yesterday and help me install my first Tortoise switch machine.  Thank you Neal!!!  I learned a lot and feel much better about the process as a result.

More when I know it.

George

My pleasure George!

What size music wire are you using?

@BillYo414 posted:

What size music wire are you using?

0.032" music wire is what you want for O scale.

George

George, I'm curious about how quickly do the tortoise machines throw the switches? I'm mostly used to the Fastrack switches and the DZ1000 which are pretty instant.

@naresar posted:

George, I'm curious about how quickly do the tortoise machines throw the switches? I'm mostly used to the Fastrack switches and the DZ1000 which are pretty instant.

I believe (haven't thrown one in anger yet ) they are slow-motion switch machines, similar to the DZ-2500 (except in derail mode).

George

Updated 1/19/2024:

Completed (except for trimming the wire) the second of two Tortoise switch machine installations.  Switches 41 and 42 are now in place.  Still have some feeders to re-attach and some buses to move around under the bench work.  And the switches are not electrically connected yet.

Switch No. 42 - the engine pocket at the Steubenville PRR station

Switch No. 41 - the passenger siding at the Steubenville PRR station.  The switch to the left is No. 37.  It will get a hand throw and be permanently set to the left diverging leg of the wye (Panhandle mainline).

The mainline is back together and appears OK.

More when I know it. 

George

Updated 1/20/2024:

Installation of Tortoise switch machines continues.  I now have 3 installed with 1 in progress.  Here are some under the layout photos.  It's been a bit tricky because I am installing them after laying the track.  The easier approach would be to position the track, mark the spot for the hole, drill it, center the switch machine, and then lay the turnout.  

I am working on the switch machine for this turnout.  Getting there (crawling on top of the layout and avoiding the Open Hearth mill seen to the right) is the trick!

More when I know it. 

George

Looks good. I need to install mine. How do you like the slow moving action? I have never seen it in person but I dream that's very satisfying to watch compared to the CLACK of other switch machines.

@BillYo414 posted:

Looks good. I need to install mine. How do you like the slow moving action? I have never seen it in person but I dream that's very satisfying to watch compared to the CLACK of other switch machines.

Bill, I've only tested it a few times, but I like it.  And I like the clean look of the track without the visible switch machines.

George

@BillYo414 I think it takes 1.6-2 seconds to throw the Tortoise machine.

George