PS2 conversion tach tape

If you want it to go faster, you need fewer stripes on the flywheel.  OTOH, since it's an MTH Premier PS/1, the gear ratio should have been correct, so I'd be checking the tach reader.  Finally, you mention the GS4 Daylight sound file, the sound files for RailKing PS/2 GS4 Daylight and the Premier PS/2 GS4 Daylight are different, did you try the Premier sound file?

Not all PS-2 versions of older PS-1 engines kept the same gear ratio.  So some models perform different.  G

gunrunnerjohn posted:

If you want it to go faster, you need fewer stripes on the flywheel.  OTOH, since it's an MTH Premier PS/1, the gear ratio should have been correct, so I'd be checking the tach reader.  Finally, you mention the GS4 Daylight sound file, the sound files for RailKing PS/2 GS4 Daylight and the Premier PS/2 GS4 Daylight are different, did you try the Premier sound file?

Do you mean check the gap between the tach reader and the flywheel? The locomotive runs fine under speed control, just slower than my other PS2 Premier steam locomotive at the same voltage. Turn the speed control off and the GS4 will go crazy fast at 14 volts, but won't exceed 45-50 scale mph with the speed control on. 

The locomotive has the correct Premier sound file.

GGG posted:

Not all PS-2 versions of older PS-1 engines kept the same gear ratio.  So some models perform different.  G

Do you know if the Premier PS2 GS2/GS4 used a Pittman motor like the PS1 GS4? If not maybe that accounts for the lower speed with the speed control on. That's why I think a different tach tape would possibly correct the issue. 

How does this perform in DCS?  Is the scale speed the same as other engines?  How are you measuring speed?

If the PS-1 is too slow at a set speed, by removing stripes you trick the processor into thinking the engine is going to slow and it will provide more voltage which means it will move faster.

Having said that, if it has a different gear ratio then the PS-2 counter part and that ratio is higher, the engine will be slower at top speed.  At some point full voltage goes to the engine and it can only go as fast as it's gear ratio.  G

I'm running conventionally, no DCS. I measure speed the old fashioned way, how long it takes to cover a set distance. The GS4 will fly with the speed control off, so I know it's something to do with the tach.

Here's a link to my post with downloadable images of tach tapes of virtually every speed range.

https://ogrforum.com/...45#58164985231390045

gunrunnerjohn posted:

Here's a link to my post with downloadable images of tach tapes of virtually every speed range.

https://ogrforum.com/...45#58164985231390045

Thanks. Unfortunately the Hikel page doesn't have any information on a Premier PS2 GS4/GS2/GS6, so I have no way of knowing the wheel diameter, gear ratio, or number of stripes on the flywheel of one of those locomotives with PS2.

You actually don't really need all of that stuff in order to get close.  The number of stripes is easy, it's 24 stripes.

Since you want higher speed, I'd suggest starting with one of the tapes that will give you 16-18 strips on the flywheel and seeing how that works.  If you only run conventional, no need to worry about true scale MPH, you won't be doing that anyway.

gunrunnerjohn posted:

You actually don't really need all of that stuff in order to get close.  The number of stripes is easy, it's 24 stripes.

Since you want higher speed, I'd suggest starting with one of the tapes that will give you 16-18 strips on the flywheel and seeing how that works.  If you only run conventional, no need to worry about true scale MPH, you won't be doing that anyway.

Well that's good to know. I'd like it to be accurate if possible. I plan on purchasing a DCS system in January or February so I'd like it to be accurate for that as well. If it's incorrect it's possible that the locomotive may have issues under DCS (i.e. the system may be thinking the locomotive is going faster than it actually is).

Currently my solution has been to turn the speed control off. I'd rather have it on. Like I said my MTH Premier Santa Fe 3460 class Hudson with factory PS2 will take the same train that's behind my GS4 up to 85 scale mph with the speed control on, which is plenty fast.

For fun I checked the tach reader gap. It's .022", right on the low end of spec. 

Like I said max speed in conventional at 19 volts, pulling 6, 16" aluminum passenger cars, is 45 scale mph with speed control on. Turn speed control off and the GS4 will hit 75 mph at 14 volts, 85 mph at 15 volts, and 93 mph at 16 volts with the same train. 

Well, just for yucks, I'd shim that out to around .30" and see if that helps.  I've found that too close or two far will cause the sensor to miss stripes.

gunrunnerjohn posted:

Well, just for yucks, I'd shim that out to around .30" and see if that helps.  I've found that too close or two far will cause the sensor to miss stripes.

Is there any way to shim the sensor without unsoldering it from the board and changing the shim between the sensor and the board? I'd like to try it before making the change permanent. 

The other thought I had was maybe because MTH doesn't use Pittman motors in their PS2 and PS3 Premier steam locomotives the boards put out a lower voltage in conventional when the speed control is on. This would make sense if the motors they have been using in the past 15 years need less voltage than the Pittman in the GS4 I have. So the board may be putting out enough voltage to make the current style motor do 80 scale mph with the speed control on in conventional but the Pittman needs a little more voltage to hit that speed. With the speed control off the GS4 hits 80-85 scale mph at 15 volts. So if the motor is only seeing 12 or 13 volts it's not going to go as fast. I think all of this would possibly be a moot point whenever I get a DCS system. 

You should be able to move the sensor a little by simply wedging something behind it, .1" is not hard to move the sensor.  Remember, we're just doing an experiment now to see if it helps.

I was able to shim the sensor with a thin piece of plastic and get a .030" gap between the sensor and the flywheel (MTH's "optimum gap"). Still runs the same.

Probably best thing for now is to just turn the speed control off in conventional if I want it to run past 40-45 scale mph. I'll have to wait till I get the DCS system later to get speed control and a higher top speed.

I previously had a Rail King GS2 with PS2 and it would top out around 80 scale mph with the speed control on in conventional, just like the Premier 3460 class Hudson with PS2 I have now. I bet that the electronics just aren't providing enough juice to the Pittman motor in conventional with the speed control on. Running under DCS with 18 volts to the track it's probably a moot point. While I had the shell off I did clean out the old MTH grease and replace it with Labelle 106. So no difference from that either. 

Lou,

As I expect you are aware, speed control in conventional mode for DCS engines always leaves some power in reserve for maintaining constant speed on grades and tight turns. Typically, this results in a lower top speed for DCS engines with speed control on, as opposed to when speed control is off. Further, I would expect some variation among engines, particularly those converted to DCS (PS2/PS3), due to differing gear ratios, driver size and motor size.

I'm curious as regards how you are determining the speed in scale miles per hour in conventional mode.

Barry Broskowitz posted:

Lou,

As I expect you are aware, speed control in conventional mode for DCS engines always leaves some power in reserve for maintaining constant speed on grades and tight turns. Typically, this results in a lower top speed for DCS engines with speed control on, as opposed to when speed control is off. Further, I would expect some variation among engines, particularly those converted to DCS (PS2/PS3), due to differing gear ratios, driver size and motor size.

I'm curious as regards how you are determining the speed in scale miles per hour in conventional mode.

I'm pretty sure the issue has to do with either the gear ratio for the PS1 Premier Pittman motored GS4 being different than the later Premier PS2/PS3 GS4s that used a different motor or the fact that the Pittman motor needs more voltage for a given speed than the later motors. Either way if I want to go faster than 45 scale mph I'll just turn the speed control off, till I get a DCS system.

I'm calculating the locomotive speed the old fashioned way, how long it takes to cover a set distance. I have two poles 4 feet apart on my layout. I start a stop watch when the locomotive pilot crosses the first pole and stop it when the locomotive reaches the second pole. Been using this instead of pencil and paper: http://www.modelbuildings.org/...peed-calculator.html It's pretty accurate, well as accurate as I can use a stop watch. The GS4 has been averaging about 2.9-3.1 seconds to go 4 feet, which is 42-45 scale mph. I usually run my passenger trains at 70 scale mph tops, refrigerator car trains at 50 scale mph, and other freight in the 30 scale mph range. The GS4 gets to 70 scale mph easy with the speed control off.

    If a tach strip doesn't get it closer to your expectations the emitter(led) or reciever could be on its way out, or may just have a cold solder needing a quick reflow.  I would suspect that and start there vs a deeper issue too. Especially now that you have enough gap to more easily slip a new tack strip over the old, you need to look at that first, then the sensors.

Are you getting EXACTLY 4 chuffs per wheel revolution?  That's one way to know that the soundset is correct for the motor and gearing of the engine.  In conventional you should get exactly 4 chuffs whether speed control is on or off.

If you have two PS/2 engines (whether converted PS/1 engines or out-of-box PS/2), IF the soundsets are correct, they should run at approximately the same speed in conventional with speed control ON.  This was done to allow different PS2 and PS3 engines to run in a MU configuration when in conventional.  In other words, for the same track voltage, PS2 (and PS3) engines should run at the approximately the same speed with speed control ON.

Since your two PS/2 engines are apparently running at noticeably different speeds in conventional with speed control ON, I'm thinking you might have one of those odd-ball motor-gear configurations that GGG mentions.  Perhaps MTH did not issue the "correct" soundset for that engine.

If you then tinker with the number of stripes to get the converted PS1 engine (with incorrect soundset) to run at the desired speeds in conventional, I believe that engine will not run at the correct scale speed when you then convert to command mode.  Of course once you figure out how to print/apply your own tach stripes, it only takes a few minutes to change tach tape.  Perhaps that's the way to look at the predicament. 

stan2004 posted:

Are you getting EXACTLY 4 chuffs per wheel revolution?  That's one way to know that the soundset is correct for the motor and gearing of the engine.  In conventional you should get exactly 4 chuffs whether speed control is on or off.

If you have two PS/2 engines (whether converted PS/1 engines or out-of-box PS/2), IF the soundsets are correct, they should run at approximately the same speed in conventional with speed control ON.  This was done to allow different PS2 and PS3 engines to run in a MU configuration when in conventional.  In other words, for the same track voltage, PS2 (and PS3) engines should run at the approximately the same speed with speed control ON.

Since your two PS/2 engines are apparently running at noticeably different speeds in conventional with speed control ON, I'm thinking you might have one of those odd-ball motor-gear configurations that GGG mentions.  Perhaps MTH did not issue the "correct" soundset for that engine.

If you then tinker with the number of stripes to get the converted PS1 engine (with incorrect soundset) to run at the desired speeds in conventional, I believe that engine will not run at the correct scale speed when you then convert to command mode.  Of course once you figure out how to print/apply your own tach stripes, it only takes a few minutes to change tach tape.  Perhaps that's the way to look at the predicament. 

 

I checked and the converted GS4 has 4 chuffs per revolution with the speed control on or off. So I'm assuming it *should*have the correct sound set. 

Does anyone happen to know if there is a gear ratio difference between my locomotive: https://mthtrains.com/20-3029-1

This locomotive (which has a PS2 upgrade file listed on MTH's website): https://mthtrains.com/20-3060-1

Or this locomotive (a factory PS2 3V): https://mthtrains.com/20-3300-1

".....80-85 scale mph at 15 volts."

That seems awful fast to me for the volts?

and I wonder if the engine isn't seeing the full output volts from the ZW at the track? Maybe a poor connection that can't handle the amps is showing up? Engine has some type of short or extra current draw? Draw bar wiring issue? Have you tried running with the smoke off?

Engineer-Joe posted:

".....80-85 scale mph at 15 volts."

That seems awful fast to me for the volts?

and I wonder if the engine isn't seeing the full output volts from the ZW at the track? Maybe a poor connection that can't handle the amps is showing up? Engine has some type of short or extra current draw? Draw bar wiring issue? Have you tried running with the smoke off?

The GS4 does 80-85 scale mph at 15 volts with the speed control off. My other locomotives (steam or diesel) will do about the same.

Full ZW output is getting to the track. With the GS4 and 6 lighted passenger cars running with the throttle handle wide open the ZW is outputting 18.1 volts at the binding posts and 18.1 volts is reaching the track (measured with a multi meter).

I ended up calling MTH today just to see if they could come up with a reason for the discrepancy between the GS4 and the Hudson. I spoke to Don. He said factory PS2 and PS3 Premier steam locomotives are set to top out at about 50 scale mph in conventional at 18 volts with the speed control on, + or - 10 scale mph. So, in fact, my GS4 is operating correctly. My Premier Santa Fe 3460 Hudson is actually the odd ball. It should only be hitting about 60 scale mph with the speed control on in conventional at 18 volts, not the 80 or so scale mph it is. Go figure.

So, in short, if I want to run 60-70 scale MPH in conventional I'll have to turn the speed control off. Once I get a DCS system the locomotive should  have no problem hitting that speed with the speed control on.

I'm sure I'll get pummeled for asking, but why do you want to run so fast anyway?

gunrunnerjohn posted:

I'm sure I'll get pummeled for asking, but why do you want to run so fast anyway?

Sometimes I just want to get to eye level with the top of the rails and watch the Golden State or one of the Santa Fe Chiefs slam by at 80 mph. Like when I was a kid and ran trains flat out 😁

The rest of the time I run stuff slower. Passenger trains usually run 50-70 scale mph on my layout, because that's how fast the real railroads ran them.

So in the mean time (before you get DCS), why not print your own tach tape with fewer than 24 stripes?  If you are only getting 50 MPH when you want to go 70, try 50/70 * 24 = 17 stripes.  You don't need to "know" the gear ratio or motor type or whatever.  You won't get exactly 4 chuffs (or puffs if using smoke) per revolution but having speed control ON is a more useful behavior in my opinion.  Obviously also print an "original" 24 stripe while you're at it for DCS.

stan2004 posted:

So in the mean time (before you get DCS), why not print your own tach tape with fewer than 24 stripes?  If you are only getting 50 MPH when you want to go 70, try 50/70 * 24 = 17 stripes.  You don't need to "know" the gear ratio or motor type or whatever.  You won't get exactly 4 chuffs (or puffs if using smoke) per revolution but having speed control ON is a more useful behavior in my opinion.  Obviously also print an "original" 24 stripe while you're at it for DCS.

I would rather run the locomotive with the speed control on but it's not much of a detriment if it's off on my layout. The section I run the GS4 on is flat and has 072 curves. So it maintains a steady speed even with the speed control off.