PS3.0 Electric Engine: why would speed steps suddenly double?

Top suspect is the tach reader or it's spacing.  Obviously, one thing I'd consider is reloading the sound and chain files in case that was screwed up.

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

Top suspect is the tach reader or it's spacing.  Obviously, one thing I'd consider is reloading the sound and chain files in case that was screwed up.

Maybe the tach tape came off the flywheel?

I did take a look at the stripes on the flywheel...it appears secure. Regarding the tach reader...it appears very close to the flywheel/stripes but is not touching it. Is there play in these things, such that they can be bent away with a little force? I recall from another thread that the distance is about the thickness of a dime ~ optimal, would this suffice as a gauge of sorts, i.e, sticking a dime between the reader the flywheel, and if it doesn't fit is it alright to gently bend it back away?

You want it to be around 1mm from the flywheel.  Too close or too far away will give you bad reads.

I'd say its right around 1 mm. Would there be anything else to check or do? If not, I'll contact MTH and request an RA.

If it’s under warranty, definitely send it for repair.  

If not you could try transplanting a tach sensor from another known working loco.  Or not, if that’s too much of a risk.

And I definitely second GRJ’s recommendation to do a full feature reset on the loco.  Might not hurt to re-flash the firmware to it too.  

I had done both the feature and factory reset via remote and I'll try it again for the heck of it...re-flashing firmware sounds beyond my skills. 

Well, I tried another feature reset on this problem bipolar...and after executing it went into poltergeist mode...scared me silly. Then, did another factory reset, still a no-go.

It needs to have the flash and Sound file reloaded.  This is not hard to do if you have a TIU, computer and the USB cord for a Rev L.  Down load the Loader program, and the SF for the engine.  G

I will need to learn how to do this re-flash and re-loading sound files...it may not be hard to do for some people but I am sure it'll be challenging for me. In the meantime I'll have to pay for shipping back to MTH as I don't want to wait to get another TIU, cables, permission to download 3rd party software to my work laptop, spare piece of track, and I guess a transformer to power the engine? Is there easy to follow guide to accomplish this?

This is the 3rd new bipolar with PS3.0 with the sound blaring problem. But this one also lost its sense of speed control. After taking them out of the boxes, lubing, priming smoke units, the engines seem to run fine for an hour or so, and then they go haywire. 

please stress to them with the return that the speed is way off.

I did not have any luck trying to convince them in the past that several of my one gauge engines had the speed way too fast. Some were bought used. It's the 2 brand new ones that they would not look at that upset me. Right out of the box and just released ran way too fast.

They asked me how could I know that the speed was way off?

Maybe because I own 100 of their engines!!

Not good enough.

I had to fix them myself.

Good luck.

Copy-that, Engineer Joe. Did the re-flash & re-load sound files fix the speed control anomaly in your engines or was it the tach reader thing and/or other "things?"

After seeing all of this, I'm afraid to touch my new PS3 engines now.  I wonder if they put the wrong tach strip on the flywheel or loaded the wrong engine file???

Well, I don't know what is wrong...but for me it is 3 out of 4 new bipolars with PS3.0 that have had the intermittent sound blaring and one of those also lost speed control. I was telling GRJ via messaging, and this is anecdotal, but worth mentioning, in all cases the bipolars at one point or another, lost power going through various Ross hi-speed switches...and it seems that after this loss of power and stall out, is when the problems arose. Could be entirely coincidental, however.

The stall outs were puzzling at first, because they had made it through all switches and crossovers prior, and after running around for 20-30 minutes, would stall, stopping dead. Finally, I found a common denominator: one or more of the pickup rollers were getting "pushed" upwards into the cavity under the chassis, probably by rolling over the switches which causes vibrations (I love how trains roll through switches, by the way, definitely neat effect). The pickup roller tension springs are obviously not working right...I've since lubricated all of them...don't know if that will help...probably will end up leaking over the roller itself and causing a mess.

MTH made a fine product with the Premier Bipolar...it was in the initial PS2.0 lineup 20-years ago, but then, like now with the PS3.0 electronics, they only have two pickup rollers - and the spacing is only 2 3/8" apart. If one pickup roller loses power for whatever reason, that side of the engine will stall and stop the entire locomotive. This is despite having continuity between both pickup rollers.

The only other thing I can think of is swapping out my older TIU (with 6.10) for a newer one I picked up last year. Am not sure why an older TIU (like 15 years old) could be the culprit of all this, though, but I need to test the TIU out anyway.

MTH flywheels on OEM use the same count and are painted on flywheel for the new stuff.  Can there be a gap issue yes.  Can the processor weird out sometimes, seems like yes.  It is possible they had a bad SF or Flash code on these engines, or just loaded incorrectly some how.  If it is confined to this model, letting MTH know that allows them to do some research.   I feel your pain about not being able to load this, but you seem to have everything but maybe a USB cord, and you might have that around.  Downloading the MTH loader program to the computer your using to post here and load them.  I know you have emailed me you can't, but once the tech you found reloads these programs we will see if this is all corrected.

As far as loosing power with one roller, should not happen.  Lightly lubricate the pin of the rollers.  A conductive oil would be best.  Make sure outer wheels are clean.  Many times especially with 2R-3R engines, the issue is loosing outer wheel grounds.  Especially if your using insulated outer rail track like atlas or MTH.  Lionel, k-line track has the outer rails connected.  This helps immensely when going through switches.   G

@Paul Kallus - Interesting comment about the rollers.  The B&O smooth sided Passenger cars use one of the connection wires to insulate the roller from the frame by being between the roller and frame.  This seems to work okay unless the wires are to tight, and then the roller binds on the wire as the passenger car moves along the track.  The other issue is that the roller has a lot of angular movement.  It does not necessarily go up and down in tandem with the spring.

I am following through with my comment about putting some of the new PS3's in display cases btw.  My Seaboard E8's are going in a display case and being affixed on the living room wall.  I have the new MTH B&O GP-7 on the way and I really should test it but I'm afraid there will be a lot of issues with it.

Anthony

For what it's worth, I will mention that I removed the ground connection from some of the inner Lionel FasTrack switch rails to prevent shorting between the line and ground via the roller.  I've not had this issue with Atlas 3rail switches.  A

Just an fyi, there's definitely no shorting going on with the loss of power via a pickup roller getting "stuck" in the up position on these bipolars...if there was the Z-4000 overload red light would kick on.

I agree, the engines should not lose power by losing a single pickup roller...what I think is happening is that when the one pickup roller on a bipolar gets pushed upwards and gets "stuck" - the engine continues to run until it goes across a dead spot on a Ross Switch or Crossover; at that point, there's only one operating pickup roller and it is over a dead spot. I still find it hard to comprehend how this would affect the electronics, however...probably not related to the sound blaring or loss of speed control.

BTW: I also noticed that all these new bipolars come up in conventional mode - despite being powered by Z-4000 via TIU FIXED Tracks. I find it a minor annoyance...and am not sure if older PS3.0 engines had this same issue.

I did let MTH service know of my experiences...and sent two problem bipolars to them last week for repairs. The 3rd bipolar I am going to have serviced by a semi-local repair man. I just hope I can get all these problems resolved sooner than later...it really consumes a lot of time.

Sounds bizarre! I’m really curious to hear the outcome of this.

Sorry about the troubles Paul.

@rplst8 posted:

Sounds bizarre! I’m really curious to hear the outcome of this.

Sorry about the troubles Paul.

Me too. Especially interesting since it is strictly these locos of Paul's having the issue.

FWIW: Two of the bipolars are at MTH...am hoping someone in MD facility with experience is assigned to work on these...and the third bipolar I dropped off at a semi-local MTH authorized repair station yesterday. I will report how it turns out...and if these problems persist I could very well be "up a creek without a paddle" once the warranty expires.

Also, on another thread I inquired about replacing my ~15 year old TIU (which has 6.10); I intend to do that with a new one I purchased late last year. While most people say it could not be the TIU causing these problems, I nevertheless don't want to take any chances. In my layman's mind, it's either faulty PS3.0 electronics in 3 bipolars or the TIU. If it's faulty PS3.0 electronics, I would expect others to be reporting similar occurrences, and to date haven't read of any. One thing is for sure, I will not be buying any other PS3.0 engine or any of the announced PS3.0 engines, despite wanting a RS-3 and SW-1500 diesel.

I had two more thoughts on this..

You mentioned that you noticed this happened when crossing over a Ross turnout.  Is it perhaps crossing over power districts?  If so, are the transformers properly phased?  If not this could cause really weird electrical issues, especially with a long engine that makes contact with two or more rollers over a long distance.

Another thing I’ve encountered before with PS2 engines when using a BCR, and this might also apply to PS3 engines since they use a supercapacitor.  When powering them up, wait about 30 seconds after applying power before  you “startup” the engine.  I’ve had a few act wacky if the cap wasn’t completely charged.  I’ve not seen the issue with speed control, but I have noticed issues with the sound acting strangely.

Transformers are in phase.

My observation on traveling over switches and crossovers was anecdotal...I cannot verify that as the cause. What would be more likely is the engines losing power intermittently from the pickup rollers getting stuck in the up position...but that is anecdotal as well.

Intermittent voltage spikes are another matter...nominal and transient voltage spikes occur whenever trains run and smoke units cycle on and off like on these bipolars...but these spikes are minor in my view...in fact they're barely nothing...amperage may jump from 0.4 to 1 amp when the smoke units do their auto cycling on/off...and the voltage may vary from 16 to 18 on the Z-4000. If this is the cause of the problems then the PS3.0 electronics would be junk...and I don't want to state that without evidence.