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Hello All,

Equipment -DCS TIU rev L, Z-4000, MTH PS3 Engines

I have 2 PS3 engines.  Sometimes without warning when turning on power to a track with a switch (0-18 volts immediately)  the engines just take off.  This only occurs with the PS3 engines on tracks that are powered by and on/off switch and typically occur during the beginning of an operating session.

Could the problem be, not enough power in the capacitors to start?  They seem to work fine after running for some time and then shutting down power to the track and starting over again.

Could it be the instant 18 volts being turned on vice a gradual rise of power the way the handle on the Z-4000 lifts up?

Any other thoughts?
Thanks
Ron

 

 

Last edited by Ron045
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Because the premier engine the switch for dcs/dcc the wire was touching dcc wire and causing issues and the railking engine the wires in the engine with two wire nuts was not making a good connection causing taking off and no signal horn blow on both engines.  

Ron's symptoms are nothing like you were experiencing.

Ron, apparently this is common with PS3.  I suggest you do a conventional reset.  Have no other locos powered up.  Feed the loco direct from the transformer; do not have a TIU in the circuit.  Power up slowly and hold loco so it can't move.  Press whistle one and bell 5 times, all at 1/2 second intervals.  Timing is critical.  When successful, loco should respond with 2 toots.

I've had this happen to me.  MTH VP Strank gave me the solution.  It worked for me and for others.

Sitting here writing this, occurs to me that this might be easier to do with loco lying on its roof, with jumper cables to roller and frame.

Barry i hate to argue with you but mine was doing samething and MTH may not realize it. The wiring in the ps3 is sloppy. If he checks the wiring like i said it may take care of his problem and i sent my one premier engine to mth 4 times for signal issues and taking off and missing watch dog signal and horn sticking and i finally got tired of it found the wires touching each other on the dcs/dcc switch and it stopped doing that. Sameway with the railking engine two the wires was broken off twisted up so bad under wire nut.    

Last edited by chessie1971

Ron,

The problem, when I can get it to replicate, occurs on these side tracks when power is instantly applied vice my main lines where the power is gradually risen to 18 volts.  I can't help but think that might be at least part of the issue.

Question: how are you turning on power? When you flip the siding's switch, does that put  power to the TIU input or is the switch after the TIU outputs?
 
If it's the latter, what you're seeing is normal behavior.

Chessie,

I don't at all mind a discussion and I don't see your posts as arguing. However, the issue that Ron is seeing is not what you're seeing. His engines are simply missing the watchdog and coming up in conventional mode.

If you look at my post just before this one, you'll see that, depending on how he answers my question, what he's seeing may actually be normal behavior.

Last edited by Barry Broskowitz

RJR... I will try the conventional reset as you describe.  In the mean time, I was able to video record the  engine on the whisker track taking off and on the main line behaving properly. 

Barry... The switch is post TIU.  When you say "normal behavior" I assume you mean a "known problem worth fixing".  This certainly would not be a normal operation.

I may incorporate a rotary dimmer switch on my control panel to simulate slowly working up to 18 volts.

Here is a video of the events.

 

Ron,

The switch is post TIU.  When you say "normal behavior" I assume you mean a "known problem worth fixing".  

No, that's not the case at all. You're engine is acting just as it was designed to act.

What you're doing is turning on power to the siding after that TIU channel's watchdog signal has come and gone. The watchdog appears at a channel's outputs whenever the voltage at the output terminals of a TIU channel goes up from zero.

 When you turn on power to the TIU channel to which your switched-off siding is connected, the watchdog is sent for 5 seconds. If you later turn on the toggle switch to power the channel, the engine will come up in conventional mode  since the watchdog signal has come and gone.

If you then want to operate the engine under DCS, just select the engine int he remote and press Startup. If not, press Shut Down.

This and a whole lot more is all in The DCS Companion 3rd Edition", available for purchase  from many fine OGR advertisers and forum sponsors, or as an eBook or a printed book at OGR’s web store!

DCS-Book-Cover-Icon.jpg

Ron,

Are your PS3 engines still in conventional mode when they take off? If so, that's because they're getting 18 volts in conventional mode. If that's the case, they are, again, acting as they were designed to do.

However, if they take off when in DCS mode, after a successful Startup command, then, I agree, there's a problem with the engine, however, not with DCS.

Last edited by Barry Broskowitz
Barry Broskowitz posted:

Ron,

Are your PS3 engines still in conventional mode when they take off? If so, that's because they're getting 18 volts in conventional mode. If that's the case, they are, again, acting as they were designed to do.

However, if they take off when in DCS mode, after a successful Startup command, then, I agree, there's a problem with the engine, however, not with DCS.

They are in conventional mode.  But even when a PS engine starts in conventional mode it starts in neutral.  Right? 

In the video the SD70 takes off in reverse.  And it does not do it 100% of the time.  Sometimes it will start in conventional mode in neutral.  So far it has never raced forward.

Ron

 

I had exactly the same problem with a PS3 engine. It would sometimes do it on normal DCS startup next to two other engines that started silent. Sent mine to GGG and I haven't had it happen again. It still seems to not play well with an MTH lighted dummy. I'm still experimenting to narrow it down. It is very difficult to do the reset when it is running in reverse, even slowed down with voltage. I could get the two toots with the TIU in the system, though. Reset is easy if you get it to neutral.

Ron045 posted:

They are in conventional mode.  But even when a PS engine starts in conventional mode it starts in neutral.  Right? 

 

Ron045,

I do exactly what you do all the time with my PS3 engines, and yes, they start in conventional and neutral.

They stay in neutral, unless the power is interrupted and put back quickly.  Then they go out of neutral and run full speed (i.e. in conventional with power on tracks)

Power glitches, unstable power or "Bouncing Contacts" on your on/off switches could potentially cause that.  See my question on my earlier post.

Daniel

 

 

Last edited by Daniel Auger

I may incorporate a rotary dimmer switch on my control panel to simulate slowly working up to 18 volts.

Ron, not necessary.  I often turn on power to a block long after the watchdog has prowled the layout.  That applies 17-18 volts immediately, and the locos don't take off (except the one occasion when it needed reset.

The easy test is to place the engine on a conventional track and power up.  IF it starts moving and starts up, it is locked in a direction.  Unlock conventionally.  Move to your track.  If it misses the watch dog and starts up, it should not move. Just be running in neutral.  If already in remote either press startup to regain control or shutdown if you want it dark and quiet.

One thing to do is run it and do a Track signal strength test.  If it is lower than other engines, some wiring harness manipulation inside engine may be necessary and/or clean wheels and pickup rollers.  

You can also check the DCS/DCC switch making sure it is a 0 ohm connection.  I actually test at the wire harness pin 1 and 40.  That makes sure you have continuity from both wires to the switch and back.  Grounding those 2 pins is what places board in DCS mode.  Open is DCC mode.   So a broken or bad switch could cause DCS issues.  G

Gregg,

Taking off is not normal  whether in conventional or command mode.   period.

Thats n's exactly correct.

If a DCS engine comes up in conventional mode, it should be in neutral. However, if the toggle switch off/on is repeated, it will start moving at track power, in conventional mode.

If, as has happened with a number of PS3 engines, the engine is locked in reverse for conventional operation, it will move out at track voltage speed in reverse.

The first part, coming up in conventional/neutral when missing the watchdog, is normal behavior. The second part, starting to move when the switch is flipped off and then on again, is also normal behavior.

The abnormality is if the engine takes off in reverse in conventional immediately upon receiving power in the absence of a watchdog signal. That indicates, as Robert noted above, that a conventional (transformer) reset is needed.

Last edited by Barry Broskowitz
Barry Broskowitz posted:

Gregg,

Taking off is not normal  whether in conventional or command mode.   period.

Thats n's exactly correct.

If a DCS engine comes up in conventional mode, it should be in neutral. However, if the toggle switch off/on is repeated, it will start moving at track power, in conventional mode.

If, as has happened with a number of PS3 engines, the engine is locked in reverse for conventional operation, it will move out at track voltage speed in reverse.

The first part, coming up in conventional/neutral when missing the watchdog, is normal behavior. The second part, starting to move when the switch is flipped off and then on again, is also normal behavior.

The abnormality is if the engine takes off in reverse in conventional immediately upon receiving power in the absence of a watchdog signal. That indicates, as Robert noted above, that a conventional (transformer) reset is needed.

 OK lets try this again.... A ps-2 or 3 engine should start up in neutral in conventional mode, (no toggles anywhere)  Make you wonder.. Why are some of these new PS-3 engines locked in a directional state?

Last edited by Gregg

Not sure if this is related, but in my unofficial local observations, any "issues" I have which require resets seem to always be after we use an engine as part of a lashup and then later try to use the engine all by itself.

My son has this SD70 PS3 he likes to lash with a PS2 engine.  The other PS3 engine GP30 he lashes with  a PS2 GP35.

Again, it seems like we reset the PS3's quite a bit after using them in lashups with PS2's because of various operational issues.

But maybe they are "acting as they are designed to do".

Ron

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