PS3 N&W J Jerky Movement PROBLEM SOLVED? Videos Added

Bob,

Thanks.  I asked Alice.  She said send it to MTH.  In fact, I think she was the woman I talked to at MTH!  

Mark,

at first I was reluctant to even take the shell off or adjust the reader for fear of leaving scratch marks on the screws and voiding the warranty.

MTH is much more tolerant than that.

Typically, as long as you don't break anything, opening an MTH engine will not void your warranty.

Barry,

Thank you for the reassurance.  I didn't see one of those 'break the seal and you void the warranty' stickers, so I thought I was okay doing what I did.

Thanks!

One more thing I want to point out before we wait for #611's return to Pennsylvania.  When I was packing the locomotive up for shipment to MTH, I saw something I missed before.  There was a small plastic bag with a replacement wireless drawbar in a small hole in the styrofoam.  Looks like MTH is anticipating this being an item that could be broken if not handled with extreme care.  It doesn't look like a big deal to make the replacement.

I dropped the J off at the friendly neighborhood FedEx store near where I work at about 12:15 pm Eastern time.  It is on it's way to Mary Land!

Mark,

There was a small plastic bag with a replacement wireless drawbar in a small hole in the styrofoam.  Looks like MTH is anticipating this being an item that could be broken if not handled with extreme care.

The second drawbar isn't a replacement at all.

There's no great concern that a drawbar will break. They're designed to survive a derailment where the engine ends up on its side while the tender is standing upright, causing a 90 degree twist in the drawbar.

A second, shorter drawbar is often provided so that if the engine is being displayed only, rather than being run, it can be more closely coupled to the tender for a more pleasing visual display.

Barry,

Thank you for explaining the second drawbar!  Very slick!  I see there is a lot of flexibility built in, but wouldn't want to press my luck!

I think I am going to have to buy one of your engines you have up for sale sometime at full price juat to say thank you for keeping me on track!

Thank you!

Mark,

I think I am going to have to buy one of your engines you have up for sale sometime at full price juat to say thank you for keeping me on track!

There's no need to pay full price - I'll give you a good deal!  

Well, I received the PS3 Imperial N&W J back from Warranty repair.  I had conversation with Jeff from MTH over the phone and via e-mail.  I sent him the video of the problem that I posted here.  He ran the J a lot to make sure it would start doing it like it did for me after 2 ½ minutes of good running.  It never failed for him.  He ran it through all the diagnostics he could and it passed.

So now I have it back.  It ran 2 to 3 minutes and started doing the same thing as before.  I made sure the drawbar was plugged in firmly and correctly as was suggested 2 months ago.  The lurching was so bad, that at 19 scale mile per hour, the pilot wheels finally jumped the tracks, and it ploughed into my station before I could get it stopped.  Running it at 11 scale mph, it never jumped the tracks, and the lurching wasn’t as pronounced, but it defiantly still does it as the new video I will attach shows.  I have been having trouble getting it off my iPhone 4, but really it does the same thing as the original video.

So I am wondering if there is something wrong with my setup.  I have it running on a single loop of 048 FasTrack.  My TIU and remote are running 4.3.  I have a Z750 plugged into Fixed Voltage In 1 and a Z500 plugged into Aux Power Input.  I have two PS2 engines, a Premier Atlantic and a RailKing Hudson.  Both of them run fine.

Does anyone have any ideas of what I can do?  John Will, Harry Henning said on FaceBook you had one do this once, and it was a bugger to get fixed.  Any thoughts would be greatly appreciated. 

I thought of taking it to the dealer I purchased it from, who is a 2 hour drive each way.  I’m not mad at him, it’s the last one he had.  Chuck Fester volunteered to have me try it at his house which is about 45 minutes away.

Here is the original video until I get the new one off the phone.  I guess it is a good thing they offered me an early retirement from my job as a telecom engineer.  I don't do well with modern technology.  I'm still stuck in the '70s  

BTW, The new video will show my buildings etc back on the layout.  

Personally, I'd call Jeff and speak to him again.  I'd also ask GRJ about his experience.

I'd doublecheck to make sure the flywheel and the tach reader are not loose.

I didn't see mention of this in earlier responses and hope this is helpful.

There is a thick metal wire about the size of a paper clip on/in the drawbar. It has a bit of "spring" to it. When you insert the drawbar into the socket on the tender, you need to gently pull this wire towards the opposite side so that it is resting firmly against the square pin on the tender. From what I understand, it's used to ensure a good ground path between the locomotive and its tender.

We checked the flywheel and tach reader before I sent it to MTH, but that was before it was shipped twice, so I should lift the hood again.

Yes, that is a good idea to contact Jeff again.  Thanks!!!

Gilly,

You are right, this was never addressed and I never noticed this wire.  If it is in the downloaded manual, I missed seeing it.  39 years in electronics tells me a bad ground can cause all kinds of problems.  Jeff would know to look for it, but I missed that.  I will try that tonight and report back.

Thank you!

I have been favorably impressed in my conversations with Jeff.   Also with GRJ.

Nope, I didn't see it in the manual either. HOWEVER there is a sticker on the packing foam on my just-arrived Premier 611 reminding the user to make sure that it's making good contact. I'm assuming your PS3 Imperial is the same...

On the packing foam!  Wow, I didn't see that.  I really do need new glasses, but insurance won't pay for another year.    I will have to check that tonight too!  Thank you.

Okay, so here is the new video, just for fun.  Well I can't see it, maybe later.

This one is weird for sure.   The only thing close that I've ever experience was due to the  tiu 's power supply. A Post war ZW with shot rollers  and roller pins.  If you're using a PWZW for power, try another handle.  

 I have a Z750 plugged into Fixed Voltage In 1 and a Z500 plugged into Aux Power Input.  I have thought there may be a problem with one that the PS3 doesn't like, but the PS2s are fine with.

Boy Mark, I hope you get a correct answer & are able to fix the problem. Things like this can drive anyone a little crazy.

Thanks Spence!!  Yes it can.  At times I start to think I just want to run my old postwar engines.  

Do you still have the Z-controller for the Z500/Z750 transformer bricks?  I suggest you run the engine is conventional-mode with speed-control turned off.  Doing so has the unique capability of de-coupling the tach circuit from the motor speed control circuit which you can't do in command mode.

Are you using the controller between the Brick and the TIU, or just have the brick plugged into the TIU.?

I would try running conventional with just the brick as Stan mentioned,  but I would also plug the 750 brick into Fixed 1 and remove the aux power.

Undo any other loads on your loop and run it off fixed one.  I am wondering if your transformer is kicking out.

Running on someone elses layout is also a good idea.  I would try that too.  G

Stan, I do have the Z controller.  I will give that a try.  Thank you.

G, I will give that a try too.  Thank you!

All,

I think it won't be until tomorrow night until I get to try all these great suggestions!  Thank you!

NO problem,  When I said test conventional, I meant brick with controller separately to a loop.

As a note, when using Z-750 or 1000 with a TIU, MTH does NOT recommend using the controller.  Just the brick to the TIU.  Inserting controller between brick and TIU can cause issues with some variations of the Z-750/1000.   G

Mark.........hope you get this straightened out soon!

Peter

To be clear, I'd like to see how it operates with speed control turned OFF in conventional mode (using a Z-controller).  The procedure is described in the box below taken from the PS3 manual.

As the box says, even in conventional mode the PS3 engine has speed control. And as it says, it is like an automobile's cruise control.  So my logic is quite simple.  If your automobile jerked, stopped/started, etc. when you turned on cruise-control, the first thing I'd do is turn off the cruise-control!  So for your J, if you turn off speed control and drive the engine at a constant throttle position/voltage in conventional, the engine should run at a relatively constant speed albeit slowing on curves and grades.  But if the engine stops, starts, jerks etc. as it is doing now, then it's not the tach circuit that's the issue as has been speculated. 

OTOH, when running with speed control OFF, even though the tach no longer regulates speed, the tach is still used to generate the chuff sound 4 times per revolution.  So if the chuff sounds go wild when the engine is moving at a somewhat constant speed, then you know there's a problem in the tach circuit.  So if there's something to see in a video, it would be useful to have audio working.

The above experiment should not take more than, say, 30 minutes. I'm thinking additional data points on the behavior would make a better case to MTH to swap/exchange something even if they can't duplicate the behavior.

Note that in PS3 engines as underlined above, if you remove track power to fuss with the engine or whatever, the speed control feature turns itself back on.

That is too bad it still has the same problem. I thought the suggestion of trying it on another layout was a good one, but I would try all other things suggested here first. The folks making the suggestions are way ahead of me on all this stuff. Follow their advice. Anyway, Good Luck.

Well ratz. I hoped it was the grounding issue.

Gilly,

I just got back to the computer.  I did not find the paper clip size wire, nor did I find any mention of it on the foam packing or the box.  Maybe it is only on the Premier and not the Imperial.  I put it back on the tract and after a couple minutes, it started again.

Stan,

I will have to try conventional over the weekend.  I will follow the instructions exactly, rereading them before starting.

If I don't get it working with this, I will take another video.  I have the sound turned down to 30.  Any louder, and it is just too loud in a 10x10 bedroom.  

Thank you!!

I was referring to when he got it back from MTH, not anything being suggested since.

Stan,  This is pure assumption, unless you have insight to how the processor is programmed and how the architecture uses or doesn't use the tach reader in both modes.  Tach and motor drive algorithms may still be in play.

Given that this did in fact work flawlessly on MTH test circuit and that normally means testing conventional and DCS, but is consistently not working on Mark's I do think taking it to another layout will be an important test.

Of course it still doesn't make sense that this PS-3 won't work on his layout despite PS-2 working fine, but I do believe speed control algorithms and certainly processor code is different.  So Mark's hardware may be causing issues.  G

Remember the days, when you could put train on the track, turn on the transformer, and have the train run?  Fun times.

Bob, you have a point!  I spent 45 years running conventional, just got the DCS in the spring a year ago.

Everyone,

I am going to try all these ideas over the weekend.  Thank you you for all the insights on as I can tell, an unusual problem.

As an aside, I have been looking for a good, inexpensive ZW for a while, and last night purchased one from a gent on a FaceBook group.  When it gets here, I will enter it in the picture.  I have more postwar engines than DCS, only 3 DCS,  so it will come in handy as I get to building my permanent layout.

Mark, I can recall many problems a half-century ago when I ran conventional.  Issues like brushes, brush springs, e-units, smoke units.  Also operational issues, like hard to run at low speeds, inability to run 2 trains in the same block, need for many uncoupler tracks, etc.

On the subject of the postwar ZW, I find them to be just fine for running DCS. 

If operating in conventional with speed control OFF bears no fruit, another avenue is the the transformer voltage. 

I'm making the assumption at this point that you have a hardware issue (maybe thermal, maybe intermittent, whatever).  And while MTH apparently can't reproduce it, I figure if you can provide additional data, they might then at least swap/exchange something.

OK, so back to the voltage.  You can operate DCS at less than 18V.  And since in your video you aren't pulling a load and your layout looks flat, you should be able to operate in command at, say, 12V or so.  I'm not sure whether to open the can-of-worms about pure-sine vs. chopped-sine throttles and many hobby meters don't accurately read voltage for the latter type supplies (like the Z-750 controller).  But I'm trying to imagine a scenario where higher track voltage (for example 18 vs. 12) is somehow making your particular PS3 electronics mis-behave.  Again, nothing you could fix, but if such were the case I'd think even if MTH could not duplicate it, it would might be enough to declare your board a lemon.

RJR,

Well the guy sent me the tracking number, and the ZW is supposed to get here on Monday.  I will see what it will do after that.

Stan,

I follow what you are saying about pure versus chopped sine wave.  I got my first degree in electronics back in the '70s, then I got an IT degree over 10 years ago.  I still think like an old pre-microprocessor guy.  I will certainly try it at 12 volts and see what happens.

thank you one and all!!

Mark, for what it's worth:  About 2004, I did an upgrade.  The loco would malfunction on variable channels under dcs if there was a large differential between input and output voltages.  Cure was to replace the board.

There was a PS-2 code that worked fine on Pure AC, but had rough operation with Chopped wave.  I wound up with one.  That code is not meant to be production though, and it was PS-2.

Why Mark would have a bad code when no one else does would be odd in production run.  Plus this is PS-3.

Problem with straying from standard MTH testing is they don't have any background to use all this data you might provide.  What does it mean, etc.....

It is a frustrating issue.

Mark you have not answered any questions about whether you are using the Z controller between brick and TIU. Are you?  G 

G,

No I am not using the Z controller between the brick and TIU.  It has sat unused on the shelf since I bought the TIU and remote in March 2014.  Thank you for checking.