PS3 N&W J Jerky Movement PROBLEM SOLVED? Videos Added

Well, The simplest test is to try it on one loop with Brick through Fix1 and no aux power to tiu, followed by replacing TIU with Z controller and see how it does in conventional.   G

Hello Mark,This is the voice of reasoning calling.

There is nothing wrong with your setup if the other MTH trains run fine on it.

There is nothing wrong with the "flux capacitor"on your 611.

You got a LEMON.Don't drive yourself nuts trying to get that thing to run right,cause it ain't gonna happen

If MTH and all these guys on here could not get it going,it is not going to happen

Get in your car,drive that thing back to where you bought it,explain your dissatisfaction,and all you have done to correct it,and DEMAND a REFUND or EXCHANGE.

All you did was stop in there a spend HUNDREDS of dollars on something that has been nothing but a problem to you.

I can't tell you what to do,but I were you,I would drive to that dealer while it is still early enough on this Saturday,and if he is any kind of stand up guy,he will work something out with you.-God Bless,Kenny

Well, I tried some things this evening, and the results were unexpected.  I removed the Z750 from the aux power input, turned on the power and immediately heard the engine sound come up.  All the sound features worked, but the speed control would only go to 1mph and the engine would not move.  I couldn't shut it down either.  I put my PS2 Hudson on the track and the same thing happened.  I plugged the Z750 back in, and everything worked normally.

I put the J back on the track.  Removed the TIU.  Plugged the Z750 into the Z750 controller, plugged the output onto the track, and powered up.  The light came on the J then the sound, just like the instruction manual said.  When I took power away 1 to 2 seconds then put power back on the engine never moved out of nutral.  I did it again and again, same results.  I tried it with the Hudson, same results, no movement.  I then put an MPC Atlantic on the track, and ran it backwards and forwards as it should.

I plugged the Z750 back into the aux input, connected fixed output 1 back to the track, ran the J for about 2 to 3 minutes, and it started lurching again As expected.

Kenny,

Yes, by now, I would like to take it back, get my money back, and just run postwar and MPC engines.  I didn't need the frustration after a frustrating week at work.  Oh, well only 4 more weeks of work there. Then there will be new problems and opportunities.

I'm not going to fool with the thing tomorrow.  I don't need the headache.  I'll continue later some other day.  Thank you!

In re the conventional operation (brick + Z750 controller), it's likely the J and Hudson are locked in neutral (while your MPC is not).  I assume, though you may not have tried, you could activate the whistle/horn and bell on these engines even if stuck in neutral.  You can unlock a conventional engine using a sequence of whistle/bell button presses on the Z-750 controller to perform a Reset.  Once unlocked you should then be able to run the engine forward/reverse...and then disable speed control as discussed previously.

In re the TIU behavior.  The TIU needs a source of power for its own needs...in addition to the track power which flows from the Input jack pair to the corresponding Output jack pair.  That's what the Aux Input jack does.  As a special case you can supply TIU power thru Fixed In 2...but as I understand it you are using Fixed In 1.

Actually Stan, it's Fixed #1 that will power the TIU, not Fixed #2.

Oops, GRJ is correct.  I was thinking the 2nd input pair from Aux In side which is the Fixed 1 channel.  In which case I can't explain why the TIU didn't work if you had power going in to Fixed 1.

Hey Mark, Believe it or not,I actually bought a TIU and Controller like I told you I was going to.One came around for okay money,and I know the guy selling it has had NO PROBLEMS with it,so I took the plunge!!!

Now I need to find a couple MTH engines that have cosmetic problems,but run okay to see what these things are all about. It can't be as difficult as people make it sound,it's either one thing or another if something goes wrong,by process of elimination. If anyone else reads this and has a beater MTH DCS loco,contact me.  

Your #2035 & Tender are running fantastic.As I mentioned,the wires on the tender are brittle and need replaced,but that thing is a champ.Sometimes you get a good one,like with a car motor.Both cars have the same motor,but one just seems to run better.Your #2035 is like that. I have had 14 heavy postwar cars hooked up to it,and it pulls them like MPC cars!!!  I will send it back to you next weekend.  God Bless.

I will write you an e-mail Monday,and let's see if we can't get something done about that J-  

Your Brother In Christ-Kenny

So I got back up out of my chair after reading Stan's reply a few minutes ago.  As for the Z750 not plugged in the TIU, it didn't matter which input, 1 or 2, that I used, the sound came up right away, but I had no control, could not move the engine.  I did get Out of RF range error using either 1 or 2.

Now, going to using the Z750 controller.  After 8 or 10 tries, I got the right timing and got the two whistles.  Then I was able to run the engine.  Hallelujah!!  I ran it for 10 minutes at least and it did not jerk or lurcgh once.  It ran smoothly.

So, what does that tell me?  lol

Don't tell me there is something wrong with my TIU.  It quit working one month before the warranty ran out and they had it over 2 months, and it seemes to have been working until this.  Is there something different since this engine is PS3 and the others are PS2?

Thank you everyone!

Kenny,

Honestly, if I had more time with the DCS, than a few minutes once or twice a week, I could maybe get it figured out.

I'm glad the 2035 turned out to be a good pickup.  Thanks for taking it to give it the once over.  If you want, I could send the Hudson over.  I wouldn't call it a beater, but it does have some flaws.  I got it used.  It had been a ProtoSound and was upgraded to PS2.

thanks, and may God bless you too.

I'm suspicious this TIU still has problems.  Thanks!

Kenney,

Now I need to find a couple MTH engines that have cosmetic problems,but run okay to see what these things are all about. It can't be as difficult as people make it sound,it's either one thing or another if something goes wrong,by process of elimination. If anyone else reads this and has a beater MTH DCS loco,contact me.  

Take a look at my ad on the For Sale Forum by clicking here.

Thanks!

I'm suspicious too!  OK, so it appears you need to power the TIU with Aux In.  I think this still allows the grand experiment to proceed.  That is, you can apply reduced voltage to the track and operate in DCS.  I assume your only source of variable power at this point is the chopped-sine Z-750 controller.  So it would be quite telling if you get jerking with full-throttle but the jerking goes away or becomes less frequent as you lower the voltage.

Stan,

you are correct, it started to move right away after coming out of reset.

I do have a Lionel CW80 I could plug into the auxilary input, and set it around 12 volts.  Okay, I will try that tomorrow.

Thank you!

So I was curious.  I have the CW80 plugged in fixed input 1 at about 12 volts.  The Z750 is plugged back in Aux input.  I have been running with no problem for 8 minutes.  That did correct that Stan.  Thank you.

I still don't know why the TIU doesn't work with nothing in the Aux input.  It did when I first bought it.  Also why do the other engines run fine at 18 volts, but this one doesn't?

Thank you everyone!  Good night!!

Mark, I am confuse.  If you had z-750 in the aux power port, what transformer where you using to power the layout?

The Aux port only feeds the TIU, it does not provided power to the track.

It does sound like the engine was locked in neutral conventionally.

So it does sound like your hardware, not engine. 

If you have been trying to run the trains with only a Z-750 plugged into the AUX port and nothing in the input to FIX 1 or 2 that probably explains your lurching.

I am assuming some sort of TIU damage that is letting some of that power bleed on the TIU fixed 1 output. 

We really need to start from the beginning and you need to detail how you have your layout wired.  ALL the details.  G

G,

I originally had a Z750 powering the auxiliary input and a Z500 powering the track.  When I replaced the Z500 with the CW80 at about 12 Volts, then the J ran correctly. 

When I removed the Z750 from the auxiliary input in the test last night,  The sounds and lights came on immediately, without pushing the start up button.  I had no speed control, nor did the shut down or start up buttons have nay effect.  I had it this way when I first purchased the TIU, and all worked.  I learned to power the aux, then later the TIU failed.  After receiving it back from MTH, I never tried it without the Z750 in the Aux until last night.

I have kept checking back to see if you were running yet. Glad to hear things are going forward now, literally. That's a really nice locomotive you have. It was so disappointing to read about your troubles with it.

Mark,

So it looks like the J engine hardware does not like full command (18V AC) track voltage.  I can see the logic of stopping now and pursuing the return-to-dealer route. 

OTOH, if you want to perform additional experiments I can come up with some; I don't think this is user-repairable so it would be for idle curiosity sake...

What is the voltage out put with  the  Z-500?    What about using a var channel with the voltage set at around 15 volts and then use the ENG command to run the thing.

Of course when  you get the PWZW you can experiment with voltage to the tiu. It sounds to me like proto-3 doesn't like the higher voltage. Another thing to worry about.

Don't forget a tiu need a power supply to turn on & function.... power to fixed 1 or an aux supply.

If it actually turns out that the full 18V causes issues in command mode for that locomotive, I'd return it.  There's no reason that full voltage should be a problem.

I agree. But is this the first or have we had a similar case not too long ago.??

I recall someone else with maximum voltage issues, but I couldn't find it when I looked.

I disagree, since it ran fine when MTH tested it.  Rather I contend the Z-500 is the issue, too small or some how fighting with the Z-750 inside the TIU.

I recommend trying the Z-750 directly to the FIX1 and using the Z-500 or the CW-80 as your Aux Power input. 

Too much throwing darts at a board, vice following a logic based approach.

G

Mark,  If you have a defective TIU which I think you do since powering Fixed 1 does not allow the DCS Signal to pass, use of these various transformers may be your issue.  Possible being out of phase and internally connected via the TIU fault.

If you take the Z-750 brick can you connected it properly to the FIX 1 input?  Do you have the adapter? 

If you do plug it into the TIU FIX1 with NO AUX power connected and turn on the Brick while watching the Red LED in the TIU. Does it come on and does it flash once?

If it does do a read to see that you have the TIU 1.  Then go into system and dcs and make sure DCS signal turned on.  Or do a Factory reset of the TIU.  After the reset turn off brick and wait 30secs.

Place engine on the track and with FIX1 powering track turn on the brick.  Does the TIU flash once and does the engine stay quiet.  If so, add the engine and see how it runs.  Report back. 

If the LED doesn't light or the engine starts up, the TIU is defective.  It is possible your out of phase with the Z-750 and 500, but not with the CW-80.

Take your engine to the friend who would let you use his layout.  IF it runs fine on his TIU, ask MTH to redo the warranty repair on the TIU.  Explain what you found out to Jeff.  G

Mark, I have had some similar probs with my new Southern Pacific Cab Forward.  I finally found that the engine likes to have all 18v applied at the same time.  If I try and crank up the volts from 0 to 18, somewhere along the line the engine will come on line in conventional - so the DCS control has no effect but you can use transformer to control engine.  Since I have the system connected thru switch and have a voltmeter in the circuit I crank the voltage to 18v then turn on the circuit.  Seems to work ok.  Maybe that's the way DCS is supposed to work (don't know I'm a newbie).  My 2 cents worth.  Harry  

Harry, Yes and that is not his problem.  If your engine started up that way and was in the remote you could either hit startup and have full DCS control.  Or hit shutdown and it would shutdown and go silent until you were ready to start it up.

Nothing to do with Marks issues.  G

Mark,

Try this one simple test:

• Connect the Z500 to the Aux. Power port
• Place the engine on the track
• Connect TIU Fixed Out #2 to the track
• Connect the Z750 to Fixed In #2
• Attempt to operate the engine.

You got a lemon. Get the dealer to replace it or give you store credit. 

Might the TIU problem be with the AUX jack?  I believe the is a switch in the jack that lets the TIU know that it is being powered through the AUX power and not Fixed1.  I had one stick in the past which required replacing the jack.  Just thinking out loud.....

Dave

Craig, are you apeakinig of the loco or the TIU?

Mark, you really have to try the loco on another layout, or another TIU on yours,

You have 2 PS2 engines that run fine in DCS command mode with your layout/TIU.  You try your PS3 engine and it mis-behaves.  You lower track voltage and the bad behavior goes away. 

To be sure, there are many interesting and possibly telling experiments to try...but your time has value. If you want to pursue additional high-school science projects, I (and apparently everyone else too) have some to propose.  It appears the ball is in your court as to how to proceed.

Stan,  Still think you are wrong.  Pardon the pun, but your comparing Lemons to Limes.  PS-2 is different then PS-3.  The PS-3 relies on a data line to communicate between the Boiler board and the Tender board.  PS-2 does not.  The noisy or faulty AC can be causing issues that would not effect a PS-2 board.  Also, the PS-2 uses a relay and single FET for motor control.  The Boiler board for Mark's is a FET board with a H Bridge.  So I can see those dropping out with faulty data.

I still think the TIU is the issue.  Barry's test is probably a better way to do it.  Using z-750 on fixed 2 eliminates any connection between Aux power and FIX 1.  G

Wow Mark!

1100 hits. And, you got the big time knowledgeable guys  (IMO) helping on this one.

I been reading since page one and just got to see how this story ends

Good luck.

Larry

Since I had 2 votes for Barry's test, I did that.  I followed the sequence exactly, ran the engine for about 2 1/2 minutes and then the engine started to lurch.  So what does this tell me?

1. The problem shows itself using either fixed input 1 or 2

2. It doesn't matter which brick is plugged into aux or fixed in, the engine acts up after 2. 1/2 minutes running.

3. The engine runs fine for an indefinTe period of time using 12 V from a variable AC power supply

4. All sound and light features work fine regardless what inputs I use.

5. When I power the TIU, the LED does not blink, but comes on and stays on as long as power is applied.

6. PS2 engines run perfectly with full 18 V to the track, only the PS3 engine has trouble.

7. The PS3 engine runs fine running without the DCS and using the Z750 controller.

8. The TIU was in the MTH shop for warranty repair, when it would not run the PS2 engines.  MTH replaced something, I would have to look it up.

9. The TIU warranty was expired when I first received the PS3 engine in May.

10. The PS3 engine has some different electronics than the PS2

11. High school science experiment.  lol. We didn't have electronics in my rural high school, but all the wires and connectors I have floating around reminds me of college electronics lab from 40+ years ago.

Personal conclusion, I think the TIU is the culprit, but still have doubts because of the differences between PS2 and PS3 that I don't understand.  I will try any other things anyone suggests, but I think eventually I will not only take my engine to my friend's house to try on his setup, but I will take my TIU, remote, and all my power sources as well.  He is an over the road trucker, who leaves Sunday evening and returns home late Thursday nights or on Fridays.  It will have to wait until he has a free evening for me to try that.

How about that for bringing us all up to date?  I told my wife how this topic has drawn so much attention.  Thank you everyone for all your ideas.  Please let me know what you think of my science lab report.

Taking it to your friend's place to try on his system sounds like a good idea to me. Also taking all your stuff with you is a good idea as well so you can compare it with his system. Again, I am an amateur so go with the experts first, but trying it somewhere else sure can't hurt anything. The fact that it ran just fine at MTH is a real puzzler in the mix here to me? Good Luck.

Mark, have you called Jeff back to discuss this with him?

It may be that MTH ran it for fewer minutes than the time needed to make this show up, or maybe at a different voltage or waveform that delayed or precluded the problem from showing up.

If this thread can run 5 pages, I think you get an award for a really really knotty problem.

Yes, Jeff ran it much longer than the time it takes for it to fail for me.  In fact, while he had it, I sent him my video, so he saw exactly what it did.  I did not ask what voltage he was running the fixed input.  I should check back.  Thanks.

He is knowledgeable, and in a long detailed discussion may result in MTH trying to make this right

In the mean time, if you're up for more lab assignments, I'd lower the track voltage from full-throttle (presumably 18V) to, say, 16V, then 14V, then 12V or something like that. 

If you talk to MTH it would be interesting to know if they tried your engine at, say, 20VAC.  I realize at the time you/they were not aware that track voltage appears to be a factor.

Hi Mark sorry your still having trouble with you new mth steam engine PS 3 problem.sent you and Email ASAP will try to help you!

Alan