Question for Barry, WillyGee, Guns, RJR and other DCS Wizards.

Dave,

It sounds like an electrical anomaly. For sure it's not a DCS issue.

Dave, I've never encountered this, but my guess is that maybe it is related to the side receiver, as you call it.  As you probably have noticed, the Z4000 breaker behaves differently when that is connected.  Without it, you have to reduce the handles to 0 to reset the main breakers.  With it, the breakers reset automatically after a time period.  Maybe, just maybe, for some anomalous[?] electronic reason, the side receiver didn't functions designed.  Sitting here having a cup of coffee, I don't recall if the Z4000 red light comes on when the side receiver is involved.

Since all works again, I wouldn't lose sleep, but I can understand wanting to know the why of the issue.

Barry & RJR,

Thanks for the input I appreciate it.  Not really worried about it, just trying to figure out what might have happened.  

All still working well now.

PCRR/Dave

I do not know anything about the problem for sure but like reading the forums as I learn so much from the knowledgeable ones. Hence my question on what you are calling a  "side receiver". I have two Z4000's with 2 TIU's but have never heard of a Side Receiver? Just wondering.

Curtis,

The "side receiver" is the Z4000 Remote Commander receiver, MTH Item #40-4002.

Thank You Barry. I remember you talking about receiver once before but it was not talked about as a side receiver. In that conversation you told me that was not needed for anyone using a TIU like I am with a remote. I have to tell ya I actually follow your conversations as You have taught me SOOOOO Much! Thank you for your patience and willingness to help EVERYONE new or longtime user. I know I count on ya!

Curtis, the "side receiver" is needed if you want to use a remote to control the voltage outputted from a Z4000. (WIU won't work, because it can only communicate with a TIU, not the "side receiver.")   This let's you use the FIXED TIU circuits as if they were variable.

They are no longer made, as far as I know, but it was a fine device.  I have had one for some 16 years, with no issues.

Curtish,

  RJR is correct, I have a side receiver for each of my Z4K Transformers and they open additional running options with your layouts.  They make your Conventional Engines run smoother from the DCS HHRC than the old ZW's or KW's ever could.

Why MTH quit making them I really do not know, they work great.  Barry does a great write up and explains their use, and set up, in his Book.  Pick a Couple of them up for  your Z4K's off the Net.  They are usually available if you look around a little, I recommend them highly.  They are actually a great product. Using them you get an additional type of TR function to expand your Conventional Engines usage, run thru the HHRC. 

PCRR/Dave

One of my Z4K Side Receiver's pictured below. In it's original wrapping.

"Why MTH quit making them I really do not know"

Neither do I.  When DCS first came out, my son gave me a complete outfit, including remote, Z4000, and Z4000 receiver, even though I had no PS2 locos, so that I could run conventional with walkaround capability.

RJR,

   The only thing I can figure is MTH might have wanted to expand their sales in a different RC area and did not want competition from their own product line.  Or maybe they could not cost effectively produce the Receiver to allow for a real decent profit margin on it, so they eliminated it from their sales inventory.  

In any case this is all just guess work, IMO the product needs to be available thru MTH once again for operators owning a Z4K Transformer.

PCRR/Dave

MTH stopped making the DCS Remote Commander, both receivers and hand held controllers, primarily due to end of life for some of the device's parts. My understanding is that the last manufacturing run used all of the available parts on hand.

The situation is compounded by the fact that MTH sees the future of DCS operation as being via the DCS App, which is unable to directly communicate with the DCS Remote Commander receiver. In order for the app and the receiver to communicate, additional hardware would have to be designed and manufactured. This is a costly process.

I'm most likely the world's leading advocate of the use of Z4K Tracks and have 6 such tracks installed for my 3 Z4000s. For the time being, I'm using a DCS Remote to manage power on my layout. If that becomes inconvenient, I'll use a different scheme involving Scenes to allow AIU accessory ports to control brick-type power supplies via external high-capacity relays. This will allow TIU channel power to be turned on and off, although not adjusted, via the DCS App Premium version. I plan to document this method in a future update to The DCS WiFi Companion.

Barry,

   It is a concern to me that MTH is eliminating the HHRC and going with the Apps as a major engineering operating set up.  I do think this is a big MTH management mistake.  I can only hope Lionel does not plan to engineer in the same manner.

Instead of DCS WiFi APPs MTH needs to engineer wireless low voltage switches and other controls.   IMO their management decisions as of late, are more than questionable.

PCRR/Dave

I agree with you on the remote also, Dave.  But we are voices crying in the wilderness.  Companies live and pass on based on decisions by managers:  Remember the blue-chips, AT&T, US Steel, Bethlehem Steel, GE, IBM, etc.?

I think the unavailability of parts issue is overblown.  Seems to me that there are always workarounds if one really wants to make the effort. 

My 12-year-old grandson wants nothing to do with the app; like Grumpa, he wants to run trains so he uses the initial issue remote & Rev G TIU I put on his home layout.

Guys,

Once upon a time, I had a dog in this fight. However, he's now content to chew on other bones...  

Barry,

  I was not trying to renew the fight, if they want to someday make another run it would be nice.  I may pick up another entire DCS L from one of the stores, just to safeguard my equipment.

PCRR/Dave

Dave,

I understand completely. I also will miss the ability to use Z4K Tracks. I've simply given up on hoping they'll be available with the app.

There are those who have no interest in command control, and are perfectly happy to run conventional.  The Z4000 has always been a reasonable choice to run such a layout, and the "side receiver", used with either a DCS remote or the formerly available dedicated controller, which could handle 3 Z4000s, gave the added excellent benefit of walkaround control.  MTH has now cut itself out of this market.

I had such a system operating before I got any DCS locos, and being freed from the control panel gave a new perspective on running trains.

Original post, I to have had a similar scenario with losing power to a track. I would reset the track voltage using my DCS remote thru the Z4K remote, sometimes it would come up momentarily and go right back to zero.(no Red Light on Z4K) Did a complete reset power down power back up, same results. Upon further investigation I had a derailed 89' auto rack, I believe was the culprit, cleared problem. (for now)

However I have also had loss of channel power thru the TIU in another condition which I just switched channels (from 1 to 2) and worked fine. This I need to check further as it may be the internal circuit protection inside the TIU, (not very readily accessible , must remove the cover of the TIU) causing loss of Track 1. Otherwise it maybe the TIU has a component failure.

I also have 3 Z4K, run 6 tracks with my voltage control thru the DCS to remote Z4K receivers for about 15 years now, love this feature.

RWDeano

Barry,

   I purchased a side receiver for each of my Z4K's, I may look around for an additional side receiver just to have as a back up, however after many years of using the ones I have, none have ever gone bad.

I wanted to ask you how your apps were working out with the WIFI set up.  I know the younger generations love using it.

RWDeano,

   Actually Barry was the one who turned me on to the side Receiver close now to 20 years ago, the TR Tracks is one serious piece of engineering for controlling Conventional Trains thru the DCS HHRC.  The old Conventional Engines run smooth as glass using it.  Barry's technical write up in the DCS O Gauge Companion for using it is spot not the money. I have done a lot of directional Technical Engineering writing for NASA and I told Barry in the past, he could have worked with us at NASA on the zero defect Space Shuttle Engineering builds, his technical writing is that strong.   IMO the Z4K (SR) Side Receiver should never have been dropped from the MTH inventory and stopping production on the DCS HHRC is just plain foolish management.

PCRR/Dave

Instead of upgrading the DCS HHRC to fully rechargeable, MTH eliminates it form it's inventory.  My DCS HHRC's have been upgraded to fully Rechargeable, and I am definitely not planning on eliminating them from my  Train Room layouts.  MTH eliminating them from it's inventory is a very poor management decision to say the least, similar to the decision on the Z4K Side receiver.  

I must really be getting old!

Dave,

The only real issue I've had using Z4K Tracks is that, infrequently, when adding a DCS engine to the DCS Remote one of my Z4K Track's voltage will go to zero. If it happens to be the Z4K Track upon which the engine being added resides, the add will either hang or fail, sometimes in an odd way.

In discussions with MTH, I've been advised that this is caused by the Z4K receiver misinterpreting an instruction intended for the TIU, as a command to turn off a Z4K Track's power. Typically, simply reattempting the add yields a successful outcome and the engine is added to the remote.

Later releases of DCS have this occurring less and less frequently. Further, this can't occur when adding an engine to the DCS App, since the DCS App communicates with the WIU using 2.4 GHz, rather than with the TIU (and the Z4K receiver) at 900 MHz.

The app, in general, works rather well. I've turned up a number of issues, most of which occur under Super TIU mode only, and which most operators will rarely encounter.

PCRR/Dave - The reason your Z4K shut down power and wouldn't reset until after you removed the Z4K Remote Receiver was due to some glitch in the software that communicates between the two devices.  We are required by UL to restrict users from combining outputs of the Z4K and so, there is some pretty sophisticated software keeping an eye on things.  When the Z4K receiver is connected, some of this task becomes the responsibility of the receiver.  Most likely, the receiver was somehow told the channels were connected and it shut down the tracks.  When you disconnected and reset the Z4K, it cleared the fault.

Not sure I want to jump into the fray concerning remote control power control but, let me just say this.  We offer remote control power and will continue to.  At present,  there are 2 variable channels on the TIU as you all know.  Going forward, any new hobby level TIU products we would develop will have variable outputs for conventional trains as well.  

We could, indeed, develop a new DCS remote control and Z4K receiver/remote that work in the realm of Wi-Fi or something cheaper like bluetooth, whatever.  The issue becomes economics.  The development cost of these new devices could never be recovered in product sales.  Stated simply, we would lose money.   Especially when you consider a tablet can be purchased on Amazon for around $50.  You can get a really nice one for $100.

Please understand that our objective is to provide the simplest and most comprehensive model train control system available.  Our goal is to put the focus on running the trains and not the control system.  After all, the hobby isn't train controls.  The Wi-Fi DCS system is very young.  Give us a little time to evolve this product line and I think you will be very pleased with the result.  We are in a transition.