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I sent the very first locomotive I ever bought from Lionel back for service. I just started this hobby about three or four months ago and five of my seven Lionel locomotives are at Lionel for service. This is how one came back after I sent it back to them.  The smoke unit wasn’t working it kept falling off the tracks and the trucks are broken.  This is what I opened today the truck fell off as I unwrapped it. Jeff at Lionel now states that everything’s fine, well Jeff everything is not fine.

Is this the norm for customer service? I’ve spent about $10,000 on these trains in the last four months and I’m tired of things being broken and not working.  

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Last edited by Longshore
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The trucks shouldn’t have fallen off in shipping but this has Liondrive and the trucks are designed to be removed by twisting them about 90 degrees. Make sure there is a coupling in the truck that mates with the ball on the motor.  Try putting them back on by first orienting them at 90 degrees to the body. If no luck starting on one side try starting on the other side. They only go on or off in one direction.

Think of a bayonet base light bulb.



Pete

Last edited by Norton

I understand that, but they are extremely loose. They twist off as soon as you pick it up. No other locos do that. I have a smoking reefer at Lionel for the same issue. I have purchased from Mr. muffins and Pats amongst others. It’s not fair for them to pay shipping back and forth when QC is non existent at Lionel.

@Longshore posted:

Jeff at Lionel now states that everything’s fine, well Jeff everything is not fine.

Is this the norm for customer service? I’ve spent about $10,000 on these trains in the last four months and I’m tired of things being broken and not working.  



I hear ya, but ...

With all due respect, if you want it perfect you're in the wrong hobby.

Just walk away.  You clearly have little patience, in a hobby where such patience is absolutely critical.

You're not buying a new car, or a refrigerator, or a fine watch.  As a result, it's not going to be perfect.

You'll need to tinker.  That's what we do.  With a little help you can put it back together yourself and move on.

Finally, maybe it's time to get out before you throw more good money after bad.  You can chalk it up to a life lesson.

Mike

I disagree mike. These are not hot wheels. These are $500-$3000 toys that should work. There is no reason 5 locomotives with the simple basic cost of $2500(Actually around $5600 including the 2882) should be broke from the factory. My patience is fine. The fact I’ve waited 6 weeks to get it back broken is not acceptable. And if you feel this is, then you’re a sucker. People need to do their job and build a quality product if they charge a premium price.

Maybe you should learn a life lesson of getting what you pay for and expecting something to work properly. These companies have taken advantage far too long. You really don’t think a smoking steam engine is worth the price of a used car do you?

I work hard, very hard for my money. And I expect a product to last more than a few weeks. I don’t have time to call, wait on hold for 20 minutes, explain it, get a call tag, and send it back. I’m a foreman and my job is hectic. I work 80 hours a week or more. So when I have some down time I want to enjoy the trains with my grandkids. Not have to fix everything. I bought new, not used for this reason.



I hear ya, but ...

With all due respect, if you want it perfect you're in the wrong hobby.

Just walk away.  You clearly have little patience, in a hobby where such patience is absolutely critical.

You're not buying a new car, or a refrigerator, or a fine watch.  As a result, it's not going to be perfect.

You'll need to tinker.  That's what we do.  With a little help you can put it back together yourself and move on.

Finally, maybe it's time to get out before you throw more good money after bad.  You can chalk it up to a life lesson.

Mike

No one should make excuses for a manufacturer. It should be right out of the box. While something maybe a shipping issue in general it should be right.

Do some of us overlook it and just put a screw driver or solder iron to it, yes but folks should expect a working model. Not everyone wants to have to make it right for the manufacturer. They expect it to be right. It should be right. Maybe we’ve given them a pass too long.



You'll need to tinker.  That's what we do.  With a little help you can put it back together yourself and move on.

Great advice.  In fact, I’d like to see Lionel put those words on a little sticker and slap it on the cover of each new catalog they issue.   Let’s see how many $1500 engines they sell with that little admission.  🙄

@SIRT posted:

Trucks falling off is a major design flaw. I stick with MTH diesels even though they generally have a few minor Quality issues.

I don’t like Lionels mechanical design, internal assembly and high price. I’ve seen some major failures as well.

I agree. I have purchased 13 mth engines after getting a TIU and WIU.  I like MTH way better. I hope they figure out the loco situation. I paid $475 for the premier CP grey and red military support Sd70. Lionel is coming out with the same thing for $200 more!!  Wonder how the QC will be?



I did just however have to send a loco back to pats that I received where a light would not work and when it gets power it shoots to full speed immediately. Other than that, all have worked with small quirks. But nothing like the Lionel. And being new, I’m not a fan boy of either brand, but from what I see, I got in this hobby at the wrong time.

I have a LGB book from the 80’s that I begged my mom for a loco and never got.  I grew up poor and looked at that book every Christmas.  I found that book and all **** broke loose. I have well over 100 rolling stock, 8 sets, and about 20 locos since November. So when I spend money like this I expect them to work. Sorry, not sorry if that offends people. And when you send something back for a reason and it gets delivered back like that, that’s bull shrimp!!!

Last edited by Longshore
@Longshore posted:

I disagree mike. These are not hot wheels. These are $500-$3000 toys that should work. There is no reason 5 locomotives with the simple basic cost of $2500(Actually around $5600 including the 2882) should be broke from the factory. My patience is fine. The fact I’ve waited 6 weeks to get it back broken is not acceptable. And if you feel this is, then you’re a sucker. People need to do their job and build a quality product if they charge a premium price.

Maybe you should learn a life lesson of getting what you pay for and expecting something to work properly. These companies have taken advantage far too long. You really don’t think a smoking steam engine is worth the price of a used car do you?

I work hard, very hard for my money. And I expect a product to last more than a few weeks. I don’t have time to call, wait on hold for 20 minutes, explain it, get a call tag, and send it back. I’m a foreman and my job is hectic. I work 80 hours a week or more. So when I have some down time I want to enjoy the trains with my grandkids. Not have to fix everything. I bought new, not used for this reason.

Agree 100% At the prices Lionel is getting you shouldn’t have to “tinker” with anything!  Sorry this happened to you good luck.

I've stopped buying Lionel.  Just too many problems across the board.

There are other options in the marketplace and I'm pretty happy with what others are delivering as far as quality and value is concerned.  Hopefully they'll get it together someday.  I've been patient with Lionel, but things just aren't improving.

Below you'll see a group of D3R club members repairing a brand new Lionel Mohawk.  It's working now but should have been working out of the box.

Screenshot_20220314-012924_Facebook

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Last edited by MichRR714

I absolutely agree with you Longshore. That is serious money you have invested in this hobby and, frankly, what you receive from the repair department should be in excellent running condition in my opinion. Tinkering and tweaking is fine if you, personally,  want to modify the engine or change some component to suit your specific needs or preferences - otherwise it should be delivered “as intended” without having to fix shoddy workmanship. I am just now working on my first layout after years of collecting. I plan on running three - possibly four - trains (two O, two HO) the newest loco of which is a circa 1990 Warbonnet. I’m in no way as serious an engine guy as many on this site - I’m primarily in it for fun. Actually, watching old accessories in operation and setting up the display to look as close to a town or mountainous region as possible is probably going to be the most rewarding part for me.
At any rate, I empathize with your frustration and dissatisfaction.

The trucks are designed to come off.  It should line up 90 degrees from the body and then rotate back to lock it back on.  All newer diesels have this design.  Some diesels have the trucks fit looser than others.  That is perfectly normal.  My Genset from 2020 has a very tight fit.  My Legacy FM Trainmaster has much looser fit.  There is going to be natural build variances in each locomotive.  No two locs off the same production line are 100% exact.  Its called build tolerances. My FM Trainmaster had the truck swivel right off when I tried to put it back in the box.  I popped it back on.  Its 100% OK and nothing is broken.  I ran it later and its perfect.

I actually prefer when locs have the looser fit for the trucks.  It makes routine maintenance a lot easier.  When the truck has a very tight fit, you run the risk of breaking something trying to rotate the truck off.  Once the truck is off, as in your photo, you can get to all the gears for lubrication.  If you don't like the design, that's OK.  But it does not appear to be broken.

Put the truck back on and put it on the tracks and run it.  This forum can help you get your loc running.  If there is a real problem obviously, Lionel should fix it.  And we can help you determine if its  a real problem.

Last edited by Joe Fermani

I'm in the camp that expects these high-dollar luxury goods to work as intended out of the box - anything beyond normal lubrication is unreasonable.  "Sorry that your Rolex arrived broken, sir - we'll get it back to you in a few months." - NOT! 

However, until enough people stop tolerating this situation (i.e., buying), nothing will change.  Personally, I've stopped buying them - going back towards postwar and MPC (simple, and lots of bargains for stuff that's not pristine) for O-gauge and dipping my toes into HO for scale trains.  Unfortunately, the market hasn't noticed or responded to my absence.

Currently, the manufacturers don't even sell power and control systems for these expensive locomotives, yet people continue to buy them - IMO, this is just crazy.  Time to wake up and smell the ozone and smoke fluid.

@Longshore posted:

I sent the very first locomotive I ever bought from Lionel back for service. I just started this hobby about three or four months ago and five of my seven Lionel locomotives are at Lionel for service. This is how one came back after I sent it back to them.  The smoke unit wasn’t working it kept falling off the tracks and the trucks are broken.  This is what I opened today the truck fell off as I unwrapped it. Jeff at Lionel now states that everything’s fine, well Jeff everything is not fine.

Is this the norm for customer service? I’ve spent about $10,000 on these trains in the last four months and I’m tired of things being broken and not working.  

Sorry for your experience. At least your loco is under warranty. What will you do do when the warranty runs out and you have issues? You are on your own. My last legacy steam loco was in 2016. Too many issues with 4 replacement RCMC boards. Lionel ended up buying me out of the loco after 1 ASC facility and 1 independent tech couldn't repair it. Yes, Lionel bought this loco back but I was out about 600.00 in repairs and shipping/insurance back and forth. I was never reimbursed for the 600.00. I begged Lionel to repair it first. No way would they touch it because it was out of warranty for about 2 months. I vowed never again. Boy, Lionel makes some beautiful stuff with awesome sounds, however when they don't operate like advertised it is extremely frustrating. I have not made a new Lionel purchase since. What a nightmere!

@jini5 posted:

after 1 ASC facility and 1 independent tech couldn't repair it. Yes, Lionel bought this loco back but I was out about 600.00 in repairs and shipping/insurance back and forth. I was never reimbursed for the 600.00. I begged Lionel to repair it first. No way would they touch it because it was out of warranty for about 2 months. I vowed never again. Boy, Lionel makes some beautiful stuff with awesome sounds, however when they don't operate like advertised it is extremely frustrating.

This is why Lionel needs to do a better job training techs for out of warranty repair.  With a few exceptions most repairs could be beyond their skill level primarily because they don't have an understanding of the electronics package.  This is through no fault of their own.  Access to service videos would be a good start.  Unfortunately there are those who even with the best training probably should stick to changing traction tires and basic maintenance.

Just to add to my previous post, I do thing that it's always a good idea to check for loose screws and some obvious shipping related items that with a simple tightening should take care of.  Shipping does loosen screws.  I always check for things like that and have tightened up a few screws in my day.

Please give Lionel an opportunity to make it right.  I know you are frustrated but I do believe they want you to be happy.

Last edited by MartyE

Like I said, looks like I got into this hobby at the wrong time. When my things are out of warranty that is a different subject for another time. We are addressing brand new out of the box broken. And once again I understand about the trucks, the point is every time you pick up the locomotive they fall off, the wires are going to break eventually.  None of the MTH locomotives do that, none of the other Lionel locomotives that are broken do that, they have other issues. So you’re going to tell me one out of 20 locomotives I have, this is the norm? Again, I’m not drinking the Kool-Aid.

I am 0 for 2 on purchasing brand new Lionel Legacy steam.  Both arrived with the dreaded single cab blink of death right out of the box and had to be sent back to Lionel under warranty for repair.  Having said that, both arrived back perfect after being repaired (which took months) and now run great.  This was one of the factors which convinced me to put dollars which might have purchased a new Vision Line Class A into something else.

All of my Lionel Legacy diesels have been perfect out of the box, and I have more of them than the steamers.

These are complex items with many moving parts and tons of miniaturized electronics in a very small space.  They're really cool, but there's a lot of opportunity for something to go wrong.

Quite honestly when you are paying that kind of money for an engine you expect better service. Yes, I realize that Lionel and MTH are not big companies and all the rest and they either don't have a service department or what they do have is warranty only and undermanned, and yes it is the way they run...but that doesn't mean customers should shrug this off either, Lionel and MTH aren't charities and are selling a premium product at a premium price.

One comment caught my attention:

'There is going to be natural build variances in each locomotive.  No two locs off the same production line are 100% exact.  Its called build tolerances."

No, it is called poor quality, period. What you are saying was the problem with craft production, when you didn't have interchangeable parts and a craftsmen made them (the idea that hand made items are better than assembly line in terms of quality fails in this regards). The whole point of interchangeable parts and especially now with the techniques of lean production is that tolerances are supposed to be pretty much nonexistent (ie instead of saying the hole that the truck fits into should be .1mm to .3 mm in width, it pretty much is it should be .1 mm). What you are describing is not modern manufacturing, that kind of variance is craft building level of quality. That a truck is so loose it can come off (even if it is supposed to) in the box is poor quality. That kind of thing is what almost killed things like the US auto industry, GM and the rest thought like that....

It isn't the customer's duty to fix things and to expect them to on a routine basis is ludicrous IMO. That said, I think it also tells the tale on these products, that this is not an occassional thing but rather that people are saying "When you buy them expect problems and you need to learn to fix them".

On the other hand when you have 0 competition and if you want something nice you have no choice, that can be the reality, learn to fix it yourself or hope that 6 months after you bought something you might have a workable product *shrug*. I would talk to the dealer and see what they recommend, I realize it isn't their problem but they also have a vested interest because if you or another customer gets angry and doesn't buy, they don't make any money either. Sadly the dealers have little to no power with the manufacturers either likely, but maybe they know something.

As someone who knows how quality works, it makes me sad to hear that a modern product has that kind of problems. Yes, a let of people say they bought new engines and they were fine, but the fact that people talk about what they routinely have to do when they buy one of these tells a different tale. There is a saying I use when testing software, that if you are looking for a needle in a haystack (which is what software tests should be looking for), and 5 needles jump out at you, chances are there are a lot more hidden in that haystack.

All I can do is wish the OP well, that he gets some kind of resolution. It is sad that in 2022, when we have cars that last 250,000 miles, when while tv sets have gotten ridiculously cheap they last for many years and are generally good quality, people have to put up with this from something so expensive. Reminds me of people who bought Mercedes Benz cars before about 20 years ago, was much the same thing.

@IC Gulf posted:

Don't give up on the hobby. Buy Post War Lionel - still running after 75 years.

I would expect that if the OP was interested in postwar trains, he would be buying them.  He apparently wanted an SD70 with all the bells and whistles, he's not going to find one in postwar.

Plus not all postwar trains were perfect, either.  I had a 2350 EP5 where the frame stamping was off kilter and the locomotive ran down the track at an angle.  Took me months to find a junker so I could replace the frame.  And there was no internet to search back then...

Rusty

@Longshore posted:

Maybe you should learn a life lesson of getting what you pay for and expecting something to work properly. These companies have taken advantage far too long. You really don’t think a smoking steam engine is worth the price of a used car do you?

Quality IS my life lesson.  I've spent the last 43 years as an engineer, working my tail off, grinding away within the auto industry to get it's act together and keep it that way.  Quality in product, quality in software, quality in safety critical software.  When you walk into a car dealer and demand, and then receive, a quality product think of all the folks who've put their live's work into making it perfect.

Our hobby is not like this, in any way, shape or form.  It's not just Lionel either.  The others are not appreciably better.

You're spoiled by the other things you've bought in your lifetime, the ones that come without problems.

Quality takes work.  It takes a commitment.  It costs a little money, but it actually saves much more, and it increases profits and protects them.  Nearly every industry, and every manufacturer (except "automaker" Tesla), has heard this message, and embraced it, but not this one.

Stop throwing the tantrums.  Accept it for what it is, or walk away.  You'll live longer.

Mike

Last edited by Mellow Hudson Mike

Longshore, I hope your issues get resoled that really sucks what your going through.

I just purchased a new LC+ Pere Marquette 1223 from a Lionel Dealer two weeks ago. This dealer is an Ace Harware store and does no in house service. I asked him the year of MFG the loco he told me 2017. I asked about warranty and he said that Lionel goes from date of first sale from a licenced dealer. Well I found out that is not true. If a dealer has been sitting on a new loco for over three years there is no warranty, period! The loco has been runing fine with no apparent issues but I'm screwed if any issued show up. So I have a new train with no warranty and I'll have to look for an independent lionel tech for any posible repairs that may arise. Listening to many posters on here that may be very possible. Hopefully the local tech can repair without having to send on a long trip to lionel and pay and have it still not be right when it comes back.

Dan

Longshore: Your experiences with purchasing new Lionel locomotives is very unfortunate. And your spending of $10,000 on them over the past four months is even more unfortunate.

Lionel’s diminishing durability and poor quality control over the past 10 years is certainly no secret and has been stated repeatedly on different O scale forums for years by many buyers.

I’m a small operator and have only a few engines, all of which are Lionel Legacy and TMCC, but were manufactured between about 2001 through 2012. All were purchased NIB and were all operational and ran perfectly right out of the box. I’ve experienced few problems with them and when minor repairs are needed, I just shoot it up to an authorized Lionel Service Station and my guy there usually has it back to me within week or ten days, fully repaired.

I only mention this, because you may want to consider Lionel command control engines manufactured during this era, rather than the newer Lionel. They have provided me with more enjoyment, fewer headaches, and far less expense. After all, we’re talking toy trains here for crying out loud. Just sayin’.

That's rough. It sounds like it's fine though? It sounds like the truck just needs popped back on. If you find out that it won't go back on, then I'd raise ****. Still though, for a tech to overlook something that big on the outside, I start to wonder if the techs aren't told to work at a break neck pace or something. Maybe they're told only to look at the items the customer mentions being broke. That would be a bummer. I know it's the way of the world but I would still hate to see it.

I'm waiting to see if I get burned. I have 3 locomotives coming this year. My last purchase arrived with a headlight that wouldn't work but I didn't bother with a warranty claim.

Dan Kenny - FYI, IF you ever have any problems, since your steam engine is OUT of Warranty I’d recommend contacting Alex M on this Forum because he’s one of the best when it comes to repairing Lionel engines.  For example, check out his “What’s on his Workbench” Post that’s currently on this Forum.

Enjoy your train and hears to many hours of enjoyment!

@RJ Shier posted:

Mike we need to get and keep all the people we can in this hobby. Why chase them away?

If you purchased a new Apple or Samsung phone and it has issues. Are you going to tinker with it?

I think "Mike's" impression was similar to mine.  4 out of 5 engines with issues in a few months seems high. I hope the guy doesnt play the lottery. Given the highlighted truck issue that started this post in the first place... a simple fix it seems that the owner could perform without much hassle (albeit annoying having just come from being repaired)...what exactly were the other issues? Were they simple fixes and this is being blown out of proportion? I mean, perhaps the guy has a legit complaint and perhaps the culmination of small issues or operator error, maybe unfamiliarity with the products, etc. is making it a bigger issue than it needs to be.

I have had pretty good luck with Lionel Legacy Engines, having purchased many over the years. I only had one significant issue with one engine, an NYC E7. When I have a problem with an engine, I always work with the dealer first. In most cases, they will either repair or replace the engine. That was the case with TrainWorld.

I have actually had more problems with MTH engines, both steam engines and diesels, and I have purchased many of those as well over the years. For example, I recently had significant issues with an MTH Premier Proto-3 engine, an NYC Cigar Band F3, right out of the box, that I just purchased from Nassau Hobby. I called Nassau Hobby to get an RA and the staff member I spoke to indicated that I needed to speak with the owner first. That proved to be a very bad experience. When I spoke to the owner, he indicated that his repair person had recently passed away. That of course was very unfortunate and sad. But the conversation went downhill from there. The owner took zero ownership over the issue. Instead, he told me to work directly with MTH, and that it wasn't his problem. I thought that was strange, as my understanding is that MTH no longer does warranty repairs. Only after I asked him about who to contact at MTH did he provide an MTH phone number to call. Fast forward - when I called that number, it appeared to be a dormant number that from the recording on it seemed to indicate the line had nothing to do with repairs. I left a message on it anyway, but nobody ever called back. I then asked the owner about about sending the engine to an MTH Authorized Tech for repairs, and he also had no recommendation to make. Fortunately, I was able to find an MTH Tech who is repairing my engine. Needless to say, that's the last time I will ever do business with this dealer, as the customer service was unacceptable.

Pat 

You all must member that MTH is no longer in business as Mike Wolfe has retired. All of the inventory was sold at a number of auction houses. HO went down south and who knows where the rest went. So if you buy a MTH item new from a dealer you had better get the dealer to commit to refunding the purchase, repairing the item or other Nothing is coming from MTH the company. but there are a lot of trains in the pipeline so BUYER BEWARE.  As for parts especially the printed circuit boards  good luck.  

"when QC is non existent at Lionel."

I think a more likely source of your problem is the shipping.  When a large percentage of locos come with mechanical damage, even when returned from their service center, a likely source of the problem is your local UPS/FedEx/etc. person.  I've mostly been buying from out of town dealers and rarely have problems (as in <5% out of many, many purchases).  I suspect I just have the good fortune that our local delivery folks are more careful in handling shipments.  Not much you can do if that's true,  other than buy locally so you remove the likely problem, which may or may not be possible. But you may well be blaming Lionel for what is someone else's sloppy work.  My sympathies, but I suspect you are blaming the wrong people.

1. Longshore: Your experiences with purchasing new Lionel locomotives is very unfortunate. And your spending of $10,000 on them over the past four months is even more unfortunate.

2. Lionel’s diminishing durability and poor quality control over the past 10 years is certainly no secret and has been stated repeatedly on different O scale forums for years by many buyers.

3. I’m a small operator and have only a few engines, all of which are Lionel Legacy and TMCC, but were manufactured between about 2001 through 2012.  I’ve experienced few problems with them...

4.  ...because you may want to consider Lionel command control engines manufactured during this era, rather than the newer Lionel. They have provided me with more enjoyment, fewer headaches, and far less expense. After all, we’re talking toy trains here for crying out loud. Just sayin’.

1. Exactly

2. Also exactly. Maybe a little research prior to your spending...?

3. It does seem like the stuff made in that time frame has less issues.

4. See #3...

I hope you can work things out, I really do.

Mark in Oregon

PS: I purposely buy used, because I like to "tinker", but this... 😡

@Landsteiner posted:

"when QC is non existent at Lionel."

I think a more likely source of your problem is the shipping.  When a large percentage of locos come with mechanical damage, even when returned from their service center, a likely source of the problem is your local UPS/FedEx/etc. person.  I've mostly been buying from out of town dealers and rarely have problems (as in <5% out of many, many purchases).  I suspect I just have the good fortune that our local delivery folks are more careful in handling shipments.  Not much you can do if that's true,  other than buy locally so you remove the likely problem, which may or may not be possible. But you may well be blaming Lionel for what is someone else's sloppy work.  My sympathies, but I suspect you are blaming the wrong people.

You are leaving something out of this equation, that the engines are being shipped many thousands of miles by sea, go through being banged around at sea, then offloaded, and then taken out of the shipping container and shipped.  I think blaming shipping is trying to deflect blame. Given the nature of the train makers these days when you have an engine with complicated electronics, fine details, and quite honestly a craft-like assembly process (I haven't seen anything about the factories where Lionel is built, but I have seen write ups and talked to people who literally have been to contract factories in China and they said it would give nostalgia to an assembly line C1920). The thing is, Lionel is not making these products, a factory in China and suppliers in china are making this happen and basically there is no QC there, inspected by inspector 11 in China and maybe, just maybe someone here in the US, is not quality control, it is the way the products are made and shipped from overseas. That 1500 dollar engine has a lot more in common with the cheap microwave or appliance you buy at Walmart than it does a car or an Apple phone (Apple phones are obviously made in China, interestingly they are roughly the same price as a Lionel engine, but because of economy of scale and the way they are made, they do have quality control), the assembly of it, to keep costs down, is a throwback.

And no, this isn't a knock on Lionel, MTH is doing things the same way, as are a ton of other manufacturers. The difference is you buy a 90 buck microwave and it dies in a couple of years, you don't care, you buy a new one. That 2000 dollar engine goes DOA, it isn't the same thing.

what makes it bad now is MTH leaves it all to the dealers, in terms of warranty repairs, Lionel has warranty repair that apparently is swamped and may not be that great, and if you want out of warranty repair work, well, you are on your own. Hmm, wonder if Mike Regan would be interested in another business venture..... if Mike is in a good mood, maybe I'll ask him if he is at York.

"Reliability goes down as complexity goes up", some kind of universal law.  "Frustration goes up as complexity goes up", corollary to law above.  Simple things like designing a truck to come off with a twist, that then fall off easily are not acceptable.  Maybe too much time has been spent adding complexity to the train.

All these newer things like cars, dishwashers, cloth washers, electronics etc with all the extra, wonderful, cute, and appealing features from so called high tech have a big down side.  That is more stuff to go wrong, fail, be faulty designed or built.  All these feature loaded things, including the latest model trains, have way more chance of failure.

It takes an obsession with design and quality of manufacture, including contracted out parts and materiel, to produce modern reliable produces.  The price paid today for new, fancy trains deserves a reliable train.

Only a few today, meet the reliable challenge, Apple and Cummings diesel are two, there are many more, these are just two possible examples.

Who would have thought that Lionel trains, from the 40s and 50s, made as children's toys, would be more reliable, after more than 70 years post the quality control of the 1980s and computer controlled manufacturing machines used today.  On top of this, the zinc pest is still with us.

Charlie

Last edited by Choo Choo Charlie
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