... just to add to the positive comments: 😊
All of the Korean built Lionel steamers I have are AOK...and I think the newest one is already 21 years old! 😳
So decent looking and decent running machines can be built elsewhere... 👍
Mark in Oregon
"Complaining, not congratulating, is the nature of online forums. It seriously skews any attempt to determine exactly how bad the problem is."
That's the nature of business in general, unfortunately. As an independent insurance broker, every day my office is open is a chance for someone to file a complaint against me with my state's insurance department. I work extremely hard to make sure that risk is minimized. It's called doing your job to the best of your ability and taking pride in your work. Cases like what Professor Chaos posted above clearly show that there are serious issues at Lionel when it comes to people taking pride in their work.
I agree..........Joshua Lionel Cowen would be furious if he were alive today.......as would Richard Kughn.
@Longshore posted:I don’t care what anybody says about tinkering or messing with or anything, I don’t have time to do it. And no one should expect a paying customer on a new item to have too!
And if this is what the manufacturers expect hobbyist to endure, then I won’t spend any more money on the stuff. And they will eventually suffer.
You're absolutely correct for most purchases. No one should expect a paying customer on a new item to have to tinker with it to get it to work. But hobbies are different. They're all about tinkering. Stamp collecting is for instance.
This is going to seem odd, but even writing software, which is a hobby for some of us, requires tinkering.
If you don't have the time to put in, then our hobby, or any hobby for that matter, is not for you. You'll just be disappointed by a lack of quick success.
Ours is completely about tinkering, and it has been from day one. Tinkering with track to build your vision of a layout. Pulling together a layout requires serious tinkering, even if it's a simple one for your first try.
Tinkering with rolling stock and consists.
Tinkering with accessories. What's the best location? How do I tweak the voltage for best operation?
Tinkering with towns and cities. Tinkering with industries. Tinkering with scenery.
Tinkering with remote control.
This hobby, and indeed all hobbies, can't execute themselves. The hobbyist has to put in the time and effort in order to reap the satisfaction.
Because of all of the above most of our train manufacturers see their customers as tinkerers, or aspiring tinkerers, who accept things as they are as a result.
The manufacturers are not going to suffer.
Mike
Nothing more enjoyable than watching someone try to defend an indefensible position. Need more popcorn.
@Mark V. Spadaro posted:Nothing more enjoyable than watching someone try to defend an indefensible position. Need more popcorn.
Absolutely on the mark. This thread has more life than most.
Pull up a chair.
Mike
@rplst8 posted:Who said anything about opening them? Open the box and run it maybe.
Sorry if I misunderstood your comment. Yes testing upon customer's request should be reasonable.
@Professor Chaos posted:Plenty of products are manufactured in China (or other countries) without major QC issues. It just depends on how much the importer is willing to invest and monitor quality - Can you imagine a company like Apple tolerating the rate of defects we see with our products?
I bought a Lionel sound car that was DOA. Inspecting it, it becomes obvious what had happened: the car was dropped and the twisting of the truck tore the wires from the sound board. Someone had super-glued the steps back on, but no one checked inside or whether the car was still working.
It's just a matter for the importer, whether they want to contract with a factory tolerates this sort of QC culture. Plenty of factories in China (and elsewhere) do not.
This is a great example. The fact that it was repaired that way is probably a clue into why things are the way they are. Some employers put the onus on employees when something is damaged. "You break it, you buy it." I.e., damage to items you are making comes out of your pay. Knowing this, the poor, low wage Chinese worker probably cobbled it back together to save himself/herself from a docked paycheck.
This is the wrong mentality. To err is human. Mistakes happen. Accepting this fact and improving processes to reduce, catch, and prevent human error is the proper and widely accepted form of quality control. Sure the price may go up on the product (some) but instead customers are presented with the correct value proposition... "Do I separate the money from my wallet for this known quality product." The alternative is just dumb luck... "Do I separate the money from my wallet for a chance this won't be broken. I'll let the reader judge what they'd rather have in the market place.
Further... the reason QC process exist are preserve the image of the company, capital, and customer trust - and do what their company mission statements usually say... provide the [best, world class, most delightful] <insert widget here> in xyz tradition for the enjoyment of [customers, children, or target demographic] while meeting abc goal.
You do this by catching problems early. A broken out of the box item is the absolute worst result in quality control for things that don't involve things that can kill people.
@Mellow Hudson Mike posted:You're absolutely correct for most purchases. No one should expect a paying customer on a new item to have to tinker with it to get it to work. But hobbies are different. They're all about tinkering. Stamp collecting is for instance.
Tinkering...Tinkering. Tinkering. Tinkering. Tinkering. Tinkering. Tinkering.
...most of our train manufacturers see their customers as tinkerers, or aspiring tinkerers, who accept things as they are as a result.
MHM... you are right - the hobby requires tinkering.
Buying a $1000 locomotive should not. Not to mention the fact - it is largely impossible to tinker with the Lionel electronics. Many of them they do not sell to consumers, require a return of a broken part (which is likely useless, unlike core deposits in the automobile industry where the parts are remanufactured), they do not sell wiring harnesses, they are often assembled in ways that are difficult to repair or service (puzzle trucks), and do not allow modification by the user (no custom sound sets or reprogrammable anything).
I don't call shipping a 10-20 lbs box back and forth to North Carolina "tinkering".
How well does this " no china" stuff work for the large number of recent Lionel offerings that are actually made in Korea? 😉
It's my understanding the new Mohawks are built in Korea.
Does anyone know where the new Decapod is being produced? Based on my experience with older Williams and Weaver locos, Korea would be a good thing. If it's coming from China, that's a different story.
I'd hardly call a locomotive painted neon red instead of CP red being able to be fixed by tinkering
@Mellow Hudson Mike posted:You're absolutely correct for most purchases. No one should expect a paying customer on a new item to have to tinker with it to get it to work. But hobbies are different. They're all about tinkering. Stamp collecting is for instance.
Brand new out of the box should not require tinkering or repairs to get it to run right. Especially when it's already been back from the manufacture to be "tinkered" with in the first place.
My definition of tinkering consists of configuring features on the loco to work the way I want them, not finishing the assembly or repairing the item to make sure it doesn't fall apart when you simply pick it up or remove it from the box.
Stamp collecting is a poor example, stamps that require tinkering are used, these are brand new engines and should work as described in the owner's manual right out of the box. It's even worse when they take a warranty trip to the manufacture and come back in worse shape than before.
@H1000 posted:Brand new out of the box should not require tinkering or repairs to get it to run right. Especially when it's already been back from the manufacture to "tinkered" with in the first place.
My level of tinker consists of configure features on the loco to work the way I want them, not finishing the assembly or repairing the item to make sure it doesn't fall apart when you simply pick it up or remove it from the box.
Stamp collecting is a poor example, stamps that require tinkering are used, these are brand new engines and should work as described in the owner's manual right out of the box. It's even worse when they take a warranty trip to the manufacture and come back in worse shape than before.
You've hit the nail squarely on the head. One person's "I don't mind tinkering" is another person's "That's too much for me".
Having said this, there will always be people (many?, few?) who don't mind fixing it if it comes to them broken, instead of sending it back.
(Sorry I used a poor example. Brand new stamps, unused but intended by the user to be applied as postage, should not require tinkering. After postmarking, when they become important to a collector, they always do. How should I preserve it? Do I need the whole envelope it was attached to or not? Should I use mounts?)
Mike
@rplst8 posted:... they do not sell wiring harnesses, they are often assembled in ways that are difficult to repair or service (puzzle trucks), and do not allow modification by the user (no custom sound sets or reprogrammable anything).
Agreed. But in spite of this it's what we do here on this forum often, and somehow we make it work.
Mike
@Mellow Hudson Mike posted:You're absolutely correct for most purchases. No one should expect a paying customer on a new item to have to tinker with it to get it to work. But hobbies are different. They're all about tinkering. Stamp collecting is for instance.
This is going to seem odd, but even writing software, which is a hobby for some of us, requires tinkering.
If you don't have the time to put in, then our hobby, or any hobby for that matter, is not for you. You'll just be disappointed by a lack of quick success.
Ours is completely about tinkering, and it has been from day one. Tinkering with track to build your vision of a layout. Pulling together a layout requires serious tinkering, even if it's a simple one for your first try.
Tinkering with rolling stock and consists.
Tinkering with accessories. What's the best location? How do I tweak the voltage for best operation?
Tinkering with towns and cities. Tinkering with industries. Tinkering with scenery.
Tinkering with remote control.
This hobby, and indeed all hobbies, can't execute themselves. The hobbyist has to put in the time and effort in order to reap the satisfaction.
Because of all of the above most of our train manufacturers see their customers as tinkerers, or aspiring tinkerers, who accept things as they are as a result.
The manufacturers are not going to suffer.
Mike
Then as someone else posted, maybe they should put that on their boxes. I’ve had hobbies all my life. And never, have I had so many issues in such a short time.
And like many on here, people don’t want to take things apart to fix from the factory. Imagine if everyone had to tinker on thier brand new Toyota?
Wow, some of you are really conditioned to just give money away and get no CS. Just wow! 🤦♂️
if that’s the case, I got Zelle, send me some money and I will send you something to tinker on. 😂
@Mellow Hudson Mike posted:You've hit the nail squarely on the head. One person's "I don't mind tinkering" is another person's "That's too much for me".
Having said this, there will always be people (many?, few?) who don't mind fixing it if it comes to them broken, instead of sending it back.
I'll agree with "few" (more like very few) but don't mistake "tinkering" for repairing. I didn't have to repair my new engine, I tinkered with the settings to get the smoke the way I like, the volume the way I like it and the momentum setting where I like it. Anything (hobby related or not) that is shipped to me broken, not assembled, or with parts rattling around in the box. goes back for replacement. I didn't pay a premium price for brand new, never used, first owner engine that is defective, inoperable, or not fully assembled.
I do many of my own repairs and happily on used stuff but with new stuff, the problems the OP describes only indicates a long road of despair with his purchases due to an assembler not caring, poor QC and in his case poor warranty work.
And Mike, let’s get something crystal clear. I fully understand I have to tinker with my layout, paint, glue, etc.
However I refuse to tinker with a BRAND NEW $1700 steam engine and a $600 broken truck engine that HAS ALREADY BEEN BACK TO BE FIXED!
As I said, I got lots to tinker on, I’ll sell you something to tinker on. Want my Zelle info?
There are laws in most states that protect against this, and if you did run into a place that wouldn't take an item back you'd probably have an easy time in small claims court. People make a big huff about "suing" someone, and the truth is it doesn't take a big lawyer. Fill out some paperwork, show up in court, and if the facts of the case are with you, you'll likely get a judgement in your favor. I'm not saying this should be what we accept as normal - but if you buy a drill and it's broken out of the box - that's not a warranty issue - that's a SALES issue and should be remedied by a return direct to the retailer. Unless H-D or Lowe's or whatever big box store puts "AS-IS" on it, I'm pretty sure they have to accept returns for merchandise that is broken right out of the box. After a few days - yes it's then a warranty issue and dealing direct with the company is the norm - across the board - except automobiles and major appliances.
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Yes, and FWIW, most states prohibit dealers/retailers from labeling new products for sale "AS-IS" unless they are legitimately "open box", "used", "reconditioned", "factory refurbished" or something similar. That prevents them from escaping new product warranty laws applicable to dealers and retailers.
Ok guys...enough. Once again, this kind of thread always seems to bring out the beasts! CLOSED.
