Really Lionel? Really? Great repairs………not!

Just a little advice, personal attacks will just get the thread locked or deleted.  Think, before you post.

@GregM posted:

Just a little advice, personal attacks will just get the thread locked or deleted.  Think, before you post.

You're right Greg, and I suspect we are getting close to that...

Mark in Oregon

I appreciate OGR forum for keeping this thread going.

Please keep it clean and don't feed into the immature comments

I am relatively new to this forum and I have read - and responded to - this thread with interest. Now…how do I stop receiving notifications in my email re: this topic? If someone would let me know, I would appreciate it. Thank you.

@Scout3744 posted:

I am relatively new to this forum and I have read - and responded to - this thread with interest. Now…how do I stop receiving notifications in my email re: this topic? If someone would let me know, I would appreciate it. Thank you.

Click on the bell at the top of the thread. If your following it  will change from red to blue.

Thank you.

This thread is just bringing out what’s really happening to our BTO items, We order from our dealer, (mine is a home owned hobby shop,  he buys from a distributor do to Lionel’s sales program, many dealers that used to buy direct were taken off their direct program), thus, he just hands me the train item. He makes very little profit, and this is why I deal with Lionel for Warranty. Now, if he checks the item out before I pick it up and it’s defective, he possibly could return it to his vender, but in the long run, I think I’m better off dealing with Lionel. (It’s all about the money)
I sincerely do not want to lose our smaller dealers but they are struggling to survive and I will continue to pre-order (BTO) hoping for the best. I am very Unhappy that our local dealers, (Trained in Lionel’s $5K Legacy repair program several years ago), cannot do Warranty work. It’s not the best decision, in my opinion by The Lionel Team. Also, repair parts in many cases are not stocked, even on VisionLine products.
I purchase Legacy locomotives, and the nicer near scale cars and for the most part, everything works. We are in reality blessed to have a company take personal care of our pricy trains, just get back to better Quality Control. Nuff Sayd.  
Happy Railroading Everyone

longshore i feel your pain.i am sure you expected a good experience and feel a little/lot sour.some of the replies you got were not good.so far ive been pretty lucky.what are you buying so many engines for?maybe go easy.find a reputable dealer.I suggest charles ro or nicholas smith.dont put your head down.on facebook i see people with visionline engines malfunctioning brand new.lionel should be embaressed.like others have stated perhaps postwar and mpc era is better for you.I have some mpc era engines that still go problem free.and i love my tmcc and legacy engines.i hope you  settle all the issues.i gather  you live in cali.have you tried milepost38,western depot or public track

Sorry to hear about your experience longshoreman. Most of us have experienced your pain.

These issues are not inherent to the hobby like some claim, I have had better experience with MTH and 3rd rail

I hope someone from Lionel reads these comments.... but I'm not holding my breath

I hear the damaged in shipping excuse too much

In the last 10 years, I have seen significant shipping damage once,...and that was probably the fault of the careless dealer who shoved the locomotive in the box improperly.

The last 4 Legacy Locomotives I purchased had varying degrees of defects, none of them had anything to do with shipping damage.

Botched paint jobs, wrong lubricant, electrical quirks, stripped screws, and sloppy craftsmanship have nothing to do with rough handling,...that's how they left the factory.

"Botched paint jobs, wrong lubricant, electrical quirks, stripped screws, and sloppy craftsmanship have nothing to do with rough handling,...that's how they left the factory."

These are all reasons to thoroughly inspect an item before you pay for it and take delivery of it. These are not failures, but instead are symptoms of poor quality control, and any time spent correcting them should not count against the original purchaser's factory warranty.

This is an opportunity for Lionel to get things right, especially with the upcoming release of the long-awaited Strasburg Decapod. For what they cost, every model that leaves the factory should be perfect, and anything less than that is unacceptable. I don't "gotta have it" so badly that I'm going to put up with issues like Cogen listed.  No one should have to.

Some things some of you need to remember, I live on the West Coast. These trains are not popular out here. My closest dealer is a four hour round-trip. That doesn’t even include the time spent in the store. I got a grandchild, another one on the way any day now, I haven’t had a day off in 19 days. I don’t care what anybody says about tinkering or messing with or anything, I don’t have time to do it. And no one should expect a paying customer on a new item to have too!

And if this is what the manufacturers expect hobbyist to endure, then I won’t spend any more money on the stuff. And they will eventually suffer. When someone like me comes into a hobby this excited and just drops cash almost daily, I have a right to complain when things are broken. So I’ve spent about $10,000 in the last four months and I can’t get things fixed, imagine all the money they’re gonna lose from me, not to mention everybody else!  

I say this at work every day on my safety speech, theme of 2022, DO YOUR F’ING JOB!  And yet no one can these days! 🤦‍♂️

@Longshore posted:

Just an update. I emailed Lionel on Sunday. It’s Wednesday and no response. I’ve also tried to call them the last three days and when it says choose 3 for service all the line does is ask you enter an extension over and over again. Now their phones are down.

Just unreal!

Not doubting your experience and interesting to hear. We’ve had two experiences with Lionel support this week (Monday and Thursday) and were called back within 30 minutes both times after choosing that option. We had an RA with 5 minutes for first call and parts sent by them for free on the second. At one point my office phone (VoIP) was horrible when it came to number selections for navigation on calls. I wonder if you are running into a similar issue.

I actually got an email today, so I will call them later today.  I’m headed to bed.

I've been reading this thread with much interest over the last few days, probably because it meshes well with a recent thread I started.  The problem with B-T-0 is two-fold:

1.  As with many Legacy engines, Lionel is being asked to constantly reinvent the wheel every six months in technology, features, tooling, and packaging.  In effect, your B-T-O purchase is a "one-off" often financing a "one off" for another like-minded hobbyist.  In the Post War and MPC Eras, the big changes were paint schemes and maybe the MSOS.  Even then, the early MSOS whistle failures were so rampant that they were dropped for a decade.

2.  As pointed out elsewhere, once you go to China, they OWN your tooling.  There's no escape.  And China gets to make the rules.  And their rule is that they do not make runs of spare parts.  If an importer wants spare parts, they have to buy completed locomotives and disassemble them on this end.  That takes time, and if the part is especially problematic, VERY expensive.

This is why I feel perfectly happy sticking with tried-and-true mid-level designs like the Baby K4 that's been in production without issues since the late 90's.

Jon

@BlueComet400 posted:

Some retailers won't take an item back unless you buy their warranty. I recently bought a Ryobi drill press from Home Depot and the cashier told me that if I didn't buy the warranty, I would have to contact Ryobi directly for any warranty issues. I normally walk away from deals like that, but I bought it anyway without the HD warranty. So far, so good.

There are laws in most states that protect against this, and if you did run into a place that wouldn't take an item back you'd probably have an easy time in small claims court.  People make a big huff about "suing" someone, and the truth is it doesn't take a big lawyer.  Fill out some paperwork, show up in court, and if the facts of the case are with you, you'll likely get a judgement in your favor.  I'm not saying this should be what we accept as normal - but if you buy a drill and it's broken out of the box - that's not a warranty issue - that's a SALES issue and should be remedied by a return direct to the retailer.  Unless H-D or Lowe's or whatever big box store puts "AS-IS" on it, I'm pretty sure they have to accept returns for merchandise that is broken right out of the box.  After a few days - yes it's then a warranty issue and dealing direct with the company is the norm - across the board - except automobiles and major appliances.

If I were a Lionel dealer, I would make time to inspect every locomotive before I put my name on it, and if it doesn't pass inspection, back to Lionel it would go. There is no reason why the "warranty clock" should continue ticking while the customer waits for repairs due to poor or no QC before an item leaves the factory.

This is the right mind set.  You win over customers this way. 

@KOOLjock1 posted:

I've been reading this thread with much interest over the last few days, probably because it meshes well with a recent thread I started.  The problem with B-T-0 is two-fold:

1.  As with many Legacy engines, Lionel is being asked to constantly reinvent the wheel every six months in technology, features, tooling, and packaging.  In effect, your B-T-O purchase is a "one-off" often financing a "one off" for another like-minded hobbyist.  In the Post War and MPC Eras, the big changes were paint schemes and maybe the MSOS.  Even then, the early MSOS whistle failures were so rampant that they were dropped for a decade.

2.  As pointed out elsewhere, once you go to China, they OWN your tooling.  There's no escape.  And China gets to make the rules.  And their rule is that they do not make runs of spare parts.  If an importer wants spare parts, they have to buy completed locomotives and disassemble them on this end.  That takes time, and if the part is especially problematic, VERY expensive.

This is why I feel perfectly happy sticking with tried-and-true mid-level designs like the Baby K4 that's been in production without issues since the late 90's.

Jon,

I think you often have great posts and are typically on point, but I have to disagree somewhat here.  You are correct, China keeps the tooling, and maybe they don't make spare parts (other than additional locomotives).  However, the importer/designer specifies the way things are made.  There are many Chinese products that are built well and function for decades or longer.  We're in the early years of most manufactured goods coming from China, so extreme longevity is an unknown.  One industry I've been involved in for quite a while is live sound production.  Power amplifiers are sort of like the "locomotives" of that world.  I have ones that are built like tanks, take a lickin' and keep on tickin', and are beat on like a rented mule.  I have others that are total junk.  Both made in China.  We also have other examples of locomotives made in China that work beautifully out of the box and have given years of enjoyment, from both Lionel and other manufacturers.  There are OBVIOUS design differences between some of these items.  The ones that are designed better will likely last longer.  Just take a look at the Legacy K4s vs. some of the other engines that use a similar gearbox but have an additional bushing/spacer.

The importer/contractor can also specify the amount of QC that is done.  There are industry standards for this - which many manufacturers in China are certified in and will adhere to if paid to do so.  Many of the problems I've personally experienced are assembly problem like loose/stripped screws, missing glue or pinched wires.  I've had good experiences with Lionel service - but maybe I was lucky.  The point is, contacting service should be a rarity.  Cutting corners on quality is just going to cost Lionel more in warranty support.  And hey, the warranty support is being done by US employees that probably cost more per hour than Chinese factory workers.

The last thing I'll address is the parts availability.  I can't believe that Lionel is paying all that much on a "per item basis".  Typically things like this manufactured in China go down in cost as you order more.  My recommendation to Lionel would be to just order more and demand lower pricing from the manufacturer.  If they must order "completed" models, this is definitely something they should be able to negotiate on.  These could even be ones that "don't pass QC checks"... to me that only makes sense to then cannibalize them for parts.

Please don't think I was excusing Lionel.  I was just explaining the tautology of where we currently are: "it is what it is" and how I personally deal with it.

Jon

@rplst8 posted:

This is the right mind set.  You win over customers this way.

Can you imagine opening up every engine that comes through your store?  Think volume like Mr. Muffin, Ro, TW, Pat's etc.  You would have to pay a guy non stop just for this.  When I helped out at a LHS we put the engines on the shelf so you could see them.  Tested everyone before it was put up and when taken down when sold.  If it was an online order if requested the item would be tested.

Testing yes I could see that per request but to expect a dealer to open up every engine...

I agree large volume inspections would be very difficult.  I am expecting a Turbine delivery in the next day or two.  My impression based on the email I received from repair staff is that Lionel isn’t acknowledging much responsibility for product defects.  See email text…

“remove trucks , clean and grease and added Loctite to screws put on test track reprogram to 61 everything ran and worked as should thank you for buying Lionel trains love this train solid as a rock but it being so heavy shipping slams it around ,they do a lot of damage  shipping them , will try to pack it as good as I can but its all ways the guy bringing it to your door and how he handles it that counts but enjoy run the crap out of it”

Like in all walks of life Marty, people tend to severely overestimate and underestimate the production of trains.  People overestimate Lionel as that 1990's era company in Michigan with 300 employees standing out front.  The reality today is probably closer to a dozen in cubicles.

People also overestimate the number of employees a dealer has.  It might be three or four except at the biggest operations.

And they underestimate the time required to open, unpack, test, and repack a locomotive.  They also underestimate the number of customers who would be ****ed to see that somebody opened their train.

Jon

The real problem here is that unlike high quality products produced in China, which for example Apple products that use quality production techniques because the cost of poor quality would be high and they sell enough where the cost of quality production is low, Lionel is a high margin, low volume business that basically is more akin to a high volume, low cost cheap product, like a cheap microwave then something like an Iphone.

Lionel bid out likely to a lowest cost factory and the SLAs they have are likely a joke. The factory in turn doesn't invest in quality control beyond rudimentary final inspection, because to do so means having skilled workers and training. The kind of contract factory Lionel likely uses prob relies on relatively unskilled labor w huge turnover as workers leave to find better pay.

Given that the factory owns the tooling, Lionel can't pull up stakes and move easily, if the quality violates whatever little SLA they have, doesn't matter.

And the cost of low quality isn't on this side either bc there is no competition and ppl willing to buy their products no matter what, to the point that ppl make fun of those buying a 2k engine and not willing to open it up and tinker with it.  It was like that with British and Italian sports cars back in the day, shouldn't be in the era of Toyota and Honda.

Cost of warranty repairs? Lionel is a small company, I would be surprised if it was more than 20 ppl these days. Their repair staff ( that now only does warranty repairs I might add) is probably 2 or 3 ppl, who are salaried at a fixed cost. If it takes 6 months to fix something, it doesn't matter, it costs them the same thing w labor and that labor cost is part of fixed costs, so improving quality wouldn't save them anything,only difference w higher quality is turnaround time on repairs would be faster. Thing is slow turnaround time frustrates us, but doesn't cost Lionel much if anything (shipping is extra, parts they already have on hand and are accounted for already. )

In the end we take what we get with this stuff pretty much. It is why I wont buy anything new until I have my trains up and running w the 1 yr warranty from purchase.

@KOOLjock1 posted:

1.  As with many Legacy engines, Lionel is being asked to constantly reinvent the wheel every six months in technology, features, tooling, and packaging. 

2.  This is why I feel perfectly happy sticking with tried-and-true mid-level designs like the Baby K4 that's been in production without issues since the late 90's.

Jon

1. Who's doing that "asking"? Consumer? Management?

Another recent thread is talking about the updated website, which sounds like a fiasco...by what process are these "updates" being decided upon and implemented?

2. That's great if it works for you (👍) but there is a big difference between the "baby" version and the scale model; if someone wants a full-size K4 (or whatever), it should be as reliable as the less expensive,less detailed version, no?  What if the PW 646 was a more reliable model than the 773? 🤔

As always, just wondering...🙂

Mark in Oregon

I keep seeing in some of these posts references to a one-year warranty. Unless something has changed in the last couple of years Lionel's warranty is 3 years from the date of manufacture not at point of sale. I have helped out my local hobby shop on a couple of engines that were unopened and have been on the Shelf past that 3 years and Lionel would not warranty. The shop was going to be stuck with the product with no recourse so asked if I would take a look at them. I cannot recall the issues with them but it was a fairly easy fix.

I agree with you Mark, the new engines Lionel produces are the result of the marketing department. Just my opinion, but with Legacy engines they seem to be seliimg exclusivity ie by producing new engines each year distinct from prior year, which puts pressure on the consumer to buy now since they produce a given model a year or two,then it disappears.  I don't think the new engines are consumer demand, it is more marketing strategy in other words. Couple of years ago they produced the lc 2.0 dockside, I missed it at the time, and they only made it that yr ( I was looking at the Brooklyn Eastern district model).

And blaming quality issues on the need to build new engines each year is kind of problematic, given that what we see this year was planned 3,4 years ago, they don't decide in January ' hey let's make an S1 replica' and produce it in June. Not to mention I question how much is really new with the features on each engine that matter,changes like sounds are programming not hardware for example. I suspect they use common tools and dies as well between engines, prob common elements on the boards too.

FWIW, I have decided to NOT buy anything manufactured China if there is an alternative even if it more expensive. And if there is no alternative I will have to consider whether I really need that product.

As far as Lionel is concerned, or any manufacturer really, I say get out of China. Take your lumps you knew what you were getting into. If you lose your tooling you will have to make more. Elsewhere. And as far as only having a few employees, maybe they need to hire more or, as suggested, get better training for their warranty repair shops that are not in NC.

This entire situation, not limited to model trains, is irrational in the extreme.

Whatcha gonna do if they invade Taiwan? Hmmm? Get out now, avoid the rush.

Frank

Straight from Lionel's website:

"This Lionel product, including all mechanical and electrical components, moving parts, motors and structural components, with the exception of TRACTION TIRES are warranted to the original owner-purchaser for a period of one year from the original date of purchase against original defects in materials or workmanship when purchased through a Lionel Authorized Retailer*."

Plenty of products are manufactured in China (or other countries) without major QC issues. It just depends on how much the importer is willing to invest and monitor quality -  Can you imagine a company like Apple tolerating the rate of defects we see with our products?

I bought a Lionel sound car that was DOA.  Inspecting it, it becomes obvious what had happened:  the car was dropped and the twisting of the truck tore the wires from the sound board.  Someone had super-glued the steps back on, but no one checked inside or whether the car was still working.

It's just a matter for the importer, whether they want to contract with a factory that tolerates this sort of QC culture. Plenty of factories in China (and elsewhere) do not.

@Dan Kenny posted:

BlueComet400Member DIGITAL SUBSCRIBER

Straight from Lionel's website:

"This Lionel product, including all mechanical and electrical components, moving parts, motors and structural components, with the exception of TRACTION TIRES are warranted to the original owner-purchaser for a period of one year from the original date of purchase against original defects in materials or workmanship when purchased through a Lionel Authorized Retailer*."

  TCA 90-30847

NJ HiRailers Associate Member

Warranty Information

---

Products that are more than 3 years old, from date of manufacture, are not applicable for warranty coverage, even if they have never been sold prior to this date. (Under no circumstance shall any components or labor be provided free of charge.)

Very bottom of the same page!

Dan

Thanks Dan, I didn't see that. This clause means only one thing: new-old-stock should be priced to reflect this.

This is the owner's manual for the locomotive with the valley flyer set I just received last month.

@shasta posted:

I keep seeing in some of these posts references to a one-year warranty. Unless something has changed in the last couple of years Lionel's warranty is 3 years from the date of manufacture not at point of sale. I have helped out my local hobby shop on a couple of engines that were unopened and have been on the Shelf past that 3 years and Lionel would not warranty. The shop was going to be stuck with the product with no recourse so asked if I would take a look at them. I cannot recall the issues with them but it was a fairly easy fix.

I'd check your info, I have 2 year old Lionchief engine in my shop now that the owner was explicitly told "it is out of warranty".

The "one year from the date of purchase" warranty period is what I thought the standard was (within reason).  If you can prove to Lionel that your purchase was less than 365 days ago and the product is still in a catalog within the last 2 years you should have no problem.  Now if you buy a NOS item that hasn't been cataloged for a few years, I don't think the warranty applies in this case. You'd really have to take that NOS item back to the dealer for a refund.

You are correct Lionel's warranty is one year from date of purchase AND not passed 3 years from date of manufacture.

  TCA 90-30847

NJ HiRailers Associate Member

I went back to the dealer and talked about this. He did give me a decent deal since he had it as long as he did and at the time of sale said the warranty was year from date of sale. When I informed him of the warranty statement  he said he was not aware of this. As I mentioned I don't have any issues and did not expect more than the discount I had already recieved but said he needs to be aware as the product on his shelves tend to sit for a while. And also told him he should be sure to inform buyers of his older stock. You would think Lionel should have sent a bulletin out to all dealers regarding the change in warranty given how many dealers have stock aging on there shelves.

Dan

@shasta posted:

You are correct Lionel's warranty is one year from date of purchase AND not passed 3 years from date of manufacture.

Yep, the item in my shop was bought over a year ago and hence the warranty has expired.

When you have something repaired by a Lionel Service Station, and the person in charge does a great job, please tell us. Everyone needs to know where to send their trains for repair.

@Professor Chaos posted:

Can you imagine a company like Apple tolerating the rate of defects we see with our products?

And just what is the precise "rate of defects that we see in our products" that we're so unhappy about?

We see folks reporting some of the obvious failures they've experienced within this thread, and several others, but it's also true that we see very few people reporting their successes (i.e. the good ones), primarily because those people have nothing to complain about.

What's the ratio of defects to good product?  How many are bad vs. how many are good?

Complaining, not congratulating, is the nature of online forums.  It seriously skews any attempt to determine exactly how bad the problem is.

Mike

Mike,

I've been buying Lionel trains with my own money since I was 12 (1976ish).  I have yet to buy anything that was broken or failed right out of the box.  I HAVE bought a few items I was disappointed with, but that's not really the same thing.

Jon