Rebuilding Original Penn Station

I remember there was another thread I think late 2019 where a bunch were talking about the old station. Somewhere on the Tube there is a video I think over a half hour long that describes the entire idea of getting into NYC and the construction of Penn Station. It was a great video because it just showed the how much the PRR wanted to get a bite of the Big Apple, and they did it with Penn Station. I don't remember what it was called, but I think it was done by either The History Channel or something like that.

I never had the experience of going to the old Penn Station, but, considering the cost of real estate in NYC, I very highly doubt that we will ever see the likes of that grandeur again. Penn Station has been relegated to, basically, a commuter hub, and commuters just want to get to work/home, so the ambiance of the station is almost immaterial... that being said, I did, at times, enjoy spending a bit of time admiring the details of Grand Central (assuming I wasn’t running to catch my train!!!).

@Apples55 posted:

I never had the experience of going to the old Penn Station, but, considering the cost of real estate in NYC, I very highly doubt that we will ever see the likes of that grandeur again. Penn Station has been relegated to, basically, a commuter hub, and commuters just want to get to work/home, so the ambiance of the station is almost immaterial... that being said, I did, at times, enjoy spending a bit of time admiring the details of Grand Central (assuming I wasn’t running to catch my train!!!).

Paul, what you say was discussed during the PBS program I saw this evening. Although the rebuild is not going to happen any time soon, there is keen interest in doing it in years to come, and the approximately 4 bilion dollar estimated cost is not considered prohibitive when compared to other projects like the Tappan Zee / Mario Cuomo Bridge.

I can think of many benefits such a project  would provide to NYC and the people living in the NYC metro area, some of which were mentioned during the PBS program. However, I admit that the major benefit I would get would be to experience, once again, the wonder and awe from visiting such a magnificent structure. Arnold

https://ogrforum.com/...fall-of-penn-station

https://ogrforum.com/...ntary-on-pbs-tuesday

I have been fortunate to have been part of the publicity side of the Rebuild Penn Station movement. The Hagley Museum of Delaware had quite a PRR/Penn Station exhibit some years ago and an HO Scale model of Penn Station, including operating loops through the platform area, was the focal point of the display. The model of just the block that contained Penn Station measures about 6' x 12'. I had the 8th Avenue facade at York a few years back........

I was commissioned to repair various elements of the original model. The refurbished pieces have been used to promote the project at various venues and events in NYC and NJ in an effort to raise awareness and fundraise.

One thing that amazes me- an O Scale Atlas O Diesel does not look too out of scale in front of the entrance to the Main Waiting Room.

Our work will be continuing in 2021.

@Arnold D. Cribari posted:

Paul, what you say was discussed during the PBS program I saw this evening. Although the rebuild is not going to happen any time soon, there is keen interest in doing it in years to come, and the approximately 4 bilion dollar estimated cost is not considered prohibitive when compared to other projects like the Tappan Zee / Mario Cuomo Bridge.

I can think of many benefits such a project  would provide to NYC and the people living in the NYC metro area, some of which were mentioned during the PBS program. However, I admit that the major benefit I would get would be to experience, once again, the wonder and awe from visiting such a magnificent structure. Arnold

Arnold;

I can’t believe I am about to say this (hung around those bean counters way too long) but... I think a cost/benefit analysis of the Tappan Zee replacement  (sorry... can’t use the new name!!!) vs. a fancy Penn Station, would lean very heavily toward the bridge. Now, if they ever build the new train tunnel from NJ and repair the existing ones, AND finally restore train service from the Poconos that they have been discussing for 30 years, THEN I’d consider renovating or rebuilding Penn Station in light of the expected increase in traffic. But from what I’ve seen from existing commuter rail ticket prices in the last 10 years, and the suggestions of what it will cost to commute from the Poconos, I’m not so sure that we can expect a major increase in commuters...

Another issue.  Will the business areas of the Big Apple ever come back?  Heck, even the NYSE went virtual for a while.  With the net, Zoom and Teams, do you really need big offices and have them on expensive real estate?  My financial person used to work for another firm, and made all customers go into downtown.  In this case, it was Houston.  But getting to his office was a pain in the caboose.  He LOST customers.  He does have an office in downtown with the firm he works for now,  but now meets customers at the branches.  This set up is less stressful for all.   And makes the leafers of the company see the real world.

With a smaller downtown, there will be lesser stress on transportation.  Public and private.

I think CV19 accelerated something that was going to happen.

So, the real estate cost to purchase the block, evict the Garden and to rebuild the station will be less expensive.

Nothing matters until both sets of tunnels are restored.  Superstorm Sandy swamped the East River tunnels with corrosive salt water, while the Hudson River tubes have been flexing up and down under the weight of trains and tides since 1910.

Ticking time bombs... and more costly than the architecture.

Jon

Is there serious talk of rebuilding Penn Station? I thought the answer was the Moynihan Train Hall in the old post office across the street. Or am I confused? Haven’t followed too close since I’m in Boston. I love the thought of arriving in NYC at a rebuilt Penn Station. Can’t wait for the new Acela too!

https://www.amtrak.com/moynihan-train-hall

IIRC- when The Garden was renovated a few years ago, they signed a long term ground lease with the City. I doubt it could be moved at this point. And where would you put it? The last big air space in the area is now occupied by the Hudson Yards development. New York has many major transportation projects already underway including LIRR East Side Access, LIRR Third Track, and now the Moynahan Train Hall. The Tapan Zee (I'm with you Paul), was just completed, without rail capacity BTW (big mistake). That little airport in Queens is being rebuilt at the moment too.

Until Amtrak commits to fixing the tunnels under both rivers, there's no point in building a new station. Given the current economic crisis due to Covid, I think this idea is DOA.

Bob

@Arnold D. Cribari posted:

I just saw a television program on PBS in the NYC metro area called Metro Focus. It showed photos of the original Penn Station in NYC and discussed the possibility that the original Penn Station may be rebuilt down the road.

The idea is to have the original magestic architecture of Penn Station with all its grandeur, but with modern functionality for the digital age. This rebuild would require that Madison Square Garden (now above the current Penn Station) be moved, which has happened before.

IMO, it was a very interesting TV program and I bet it will be broadcast again. If interested, you can look for it on PBS.

Arnold

I wouldn't hold my breath.

I remember a PBS program during the 1980's about bringing the Japanese Shinkansen trains to America.

Still waiting...

The lease extension was less than expected.  Probably not long enough to cover the planning and building of a new garden.  

Between Brooklyn, Uniondale, and The Meadowlands, there’s plenty of venue space to temporarily cover the needs.  And with Moynihan complete, a rebuilding of NYP would be less problematic than in 1963.

Jon

In some ways, did the classic Penn have issues?  Like lots of stairs.  No place to sit down?

GCT has stairs.  But to get to the trains from the Grand Concourse, there were generally low slope ramps.  In terms of moving passengers, GCT won.  And it went from intercity to mostly commuter with fewer issues.

The new Grand Hall at Penn I think can hold off any station redo.  The tubes come first.

Here's a nice History Channel documentary on Penn Station:

Mitch

Here's a video walk-through of the new Moynihan Train Hall recently completed in the old post office building across the street from the original Penn Station location. Nice, but a little "sterile" compared to older structures. Wouldn't this effort put to rest any plans to rebuild the original?

For some reason the video starts in the middle on occasion. You may have to click to the beginning.

Jim

For those interested, here is the website for the "Rebuild Penn Station" group:
Rebuild the Original Penn Station (rebuildpennstation.org)

The new plan calls for a rebuilding of grand spaces with more seating and a reworking of the concourse with widened platforms, wide escalators, handicap accessibility , etc.
This link shows how they will rethink the platforms and how they will integrate the new Farley building. They estimate a cost of $3-3.5B to rebuild the station after Madison Square Garden's permit ends in 2023. For those who say that ~$3.5B is a lot of money, remember that the new World Trade Center Transportation Hub (WTCTH) cost $4B and that number does not including the Oculus building above the station.

The WTCTH handles approximately 50k people per weekday while NY Penn serves approximately 600k per weekday (based on 2019 figures). Gov. Cuomo has said for years Penn. Station needs to be addressed/fixed but the tunnels should be a first priority. Once the Hudson river tunnels are repaired, then maybe we can take a look at rebuilding Penn Station.

Bryce

@Keith Crook 020419 posted:

Is there serious talk of rebuilding Penn Station? I thought the answer was the Moynihan Train Hall in the old post office across the street. Or am I confused? Haven’t followed too close since I’m in Boston. I love the thought of arriving in NYC at a rebuilt Penn Station. Can’t wait for the new Acela too!

The new train hall is for Amtrak and LIRR trains only and is estimated to only handle ~20% of the total number of trains going in and out of NY Penn. Station. The main problem is that all of NJT and some of the LIRR will still be using the 1960s Penn. and anyone who has taken NJT during rush-hour into the city knows its an absolute nightmare.

There's a LIRR West Concourse that runs under the front steps of Farley, from one side to the other, connecting all the LIRR platforms.  The concourse has windows to the platforms, so that one can actually see if their train is in!  Another great addition is a LIRR Train Board listing EVERY town served in alphabetical order, with the time of the next train out.

Jon

@KOOLjock1 posted:

There's a LIRR West Concourse that runs under the front steps of Farley, from one side to the other, connecting all the LIRR platforms.  The concourse has windows to the platforms, so that one can actually see if their train is in!  Another great addition is a LIRR Train Board listing EVERY town served in alphabetical order, with the time of the next train out.

Jon,
That's a great idea by LIRR to give the concourse windows to the platforms and a new train board! The Farley building is really fantastic, I can't wait to see her in full operation post-pandemic.

The plans look feasible, question remains how and when will it will be funded?  What will be the driving force to get the project underway?

Concerning the Hudson River Tunnel .... incoming (if confirmed) Secretary of Transportation Pete Buttigieg will be coming to tour the tunnels in March. There is engineering/environmental money frozen in Washington that could be made available immediately.

Also, replacement of the 19th century design railroad swing bridge over the Hackensack River in northern NJ should finally begin in the spring ... ending the occasional Amtrak and NJ Transit train delays when it malfunctions.

Things are changing.

Big question:  How often is MSG used?  How many people come to an event there?  The Garden, by accident, I guess, became "transit orientated development."  Could thete be a possibility of a new Penn, with a new MSG over it, and provide the best for both?

And who owns MSG?  And the tracks and air rights?

The ship is sinking and the powers that be are discussing the color of the deck chairs...FIX THE TUNNELS!!!!!.....BTW  I can't use that word to describe the TAPPEN ZEE.....hope everyone had a good new year...joe

@KOOLjock1 posted:

There's a LIRR West Concourse that runs under the front steps of Farley, from one side to the other, connecting all the LIRR platforms.  The concourse has windows to the platforms, so that one can actually see if their train is in!  Another great addition is a LIRR Train Board listing EVERY town served in alphabetical order, with the time of the next train out.

Jon

I loved using that access to the LIRR trains when I worked in Manhattan 2017-2018.  Since going home I wanted to be on the west end of the train this made it easier.

Stuart

It seems everyone has forgotten the downtown Chicago flood when the old RR tunnel was breached,Penn Station should never have been torn down,but it was....GCT would have followed if it were not for a massive effort....if the tunnels fail the damage would be massive...

I agree that the Hudson tubes are the biggest concern for the infrastructure of NEC and the big screw-up over funding the third tube (lots of blame to go around everywhere - so no taking sides please) has left that the weakest spot of the Boston to DC segment.  I would rate the condition of the trackage at NYC Penn the second major issue with derailments due to deferred maintenance being a continued issue.  But where does one truly stop?  The Hackensack, Newark, and the Susquehanna River bridges all need to be replaced.

At this point, to properly refurbish one Tube the likely scenarios are a single track or trying to do the rehab work during the night time off-peak hours which could easily lead back to the single track scenario.

As an architect, I can fully appreciate the masterpiece of the original NY Penn.  It was McKim, Meade and White's icon in the era of early 20th century neoclassicism down to the plan being based on the Roman baths at Caracalla blended with the still relatively new technology of building with structural steel.  However what is often not factored into these projects is the cost of labor has gone up tremendously since it was originally built and we do not have the skilled craftsman like we used too.  However with today's 3D technology, by the time a project like this would have a chance to move forward, many of the parts could be built using an electronic model and laser cut and milled bringing some of the cost down.

However, I also know from working in the public sector that due to the length of time these projects take, add twice the scheduled time and budget and you probably have a more realistic project.  The new World Trade Center was built during a recession that hugely deflated the construction industry and prices.  This recession has not negatively impacted the construction market nearly as much so everything comes at a premium.  Final cost will be determined where in the inevitable peak to trough cycles of the construction economy such a project falls.

I have seen photos of the renovations of the post office.  Quite a remarkable transformation, but it no Penn Station like people may have remembered.  The needs of the modern world would likely dictate that any recreation of the old Penn Station would require similar compromises to the original design.

Just had mentioned this in a different thread yesterday, but repeating it here for a new audience:

For everyone here interested in the original Penn Station, I highly recommend this book:

Conquering Gotham: Building Penn Station and It's Tunnels By Jill Jonnes

It is a great documentation and covers the development of the project, the politics involved with building at the time in NY city, and the engineering marvel that was the design and build of the tunnels. The book also covers the series of events leading to the demolition of the old station.

@Allegheny posted:

The plans look feasible, question remains how and when will it will be funded?  What will be the driving force to get the project underway?

Allegneny,

I've seen this movement before and have had similar questions. The big question that I struggle with is:

How can we, ('we' as in those who appreciate what old Penn Station was and what Penn Station could be in the future), support this movement?

While the short answer is "through monetary means", I believe that we could give this project a better chance if we were all advocates for it: writing those who have the political power to take this off the ground, convincing stakeholder in the general public that this would be beneficial to them, and creating more public awareness behind the movement.

Major question about the possible use of through running equipment through Penn:  Can MN, LIRR, and NJDOT run on one another's tracks?  Not just PTC issues, but clearance....  Now dual power locomotives can solve some issues..

The NY-NJ tunnels need to be redone.  However, would more extensive PATH and subway tubes be a better option, fanning customers out before they got to the Big Apple?

I think the ‘ReThinkNY’ proposal for run-through trains is an innovative proposal. There are many from NJ that rail commute to jobs in Queens and Brooklyn. Likewise New Yorkers that work in NJ. One seat rides help the entire region.

Looking at the train movement details it illustrates goes a long way to reducing congestion in NY Penn.

In my opinion people are in love with the past grandeur of the old Penn Station and wish to see it recreated on the spot of it's original glory.  The old Farley post office is an incredibly impressive structure that could have easily fit the bill but the renovation into Moynihan Train Hall shows how modern technology and design handle such transportation spaces.  Travel was once something spectacular and arduous at the same time, it has now become commonplace.  These grand stations and terminals were an awe inspiring gateway to the fabulous unknown of the big city, today we want to spend as little time in these spaces as possible and wish to move through these transportation hubs as quickly and efficiently as possible.  The esthetics are far less important than the function.

I stand in awe of the beauty and grandness when I visit Grand Central Terminal how many of the daily commuters passing through have time to admire the edifice they use regularly.  I'm glad there were visionaries that saw the need to preserve our past.  While I believe losing these incredible structures of our past is horrible and short sighted I do not see recreating them as a viable option.  Amazing historical structures serving a myriad of uses exist worldwide, few if any are replicated now to perform a similar function without the influence of modern technology.

I just saw an article in the NY times around this, this architectural firm with this proposal for a couple of massive skyscrapers (taller than empire state building) a bit north of the current garden with a new one nestled within it, and then rebuild the current site with a new stadium. Obviously this is fanciful, we don't know what is going to happen post covid, there is no way to know. Before covid Penn Station was/is one of the most busy stations in the world, so there was a need to do this. I don't think the fantasy of virtual work is going to play out the way people think, Zoom and whatnot worked there is no doubt, but just speaking from personal experience it has a lot of drawbacks, too, it doesn't work the same way with collaboration for example. It doesn't mean it won't have an impact, it will, there will be changes, question is what they will be, the fantasy is having a purely virtual workforce working anywhere, it will never be to that extent for most businesses.

The real question is the existing tunnels and potentially the gateway project, even if levels are not what they were post covid, there is still a need to have new tunnels and renovate the old ones, there always will be load on them.