Replaced Railsounds board . . . strange TMCC behaviour with DCS

Did you connect the serial data to the new RS board?  If not, the RS is operating in conventional.  G

Hi GGG:

Yes. Image attached.

But an engine running in conventional, on fixed 18v track? Well, I've seen that. It's very ugly!

So, I don't see it as just running in conventional even though it acts that way when track power is first applied.

Where are the blue and black wires connected?  I hope just to the reed switch and no place else.

What George is saying is the RS board thinks it's working in conventional mode, it's not seeing the serial data.  First step, make SURE the wiring is good between the 4-pin plug on the Cruise Commander and the RS Commander.  Next, I'd try a different R2LC-C08 (or R4LC-C08) and see if the TMCC board has a problem with serial data.  If that's not it, the RS Commander may be bad.

John: The blue and black wires are not connected to the reed switch as such. They are connected to the sound terminal on the CC board! As in the attached image taken from the ERR RS manual. The reed switch is connected directly to the CC board on the "Chuff In" terminal.

Not sure I see a way forward here. The connector from the serial port on the RS board is indeed connected to the proper terminal on the CC board, as in the picture. But "the whole story" is, unfortunately,  "complex."

It is a brand new RS board that I've put in. Also a brand new radio board. I've done nothing else really. The whole point of this exercise was to replace an old sound board that was producing frequent drop outs. It's clear the old sound board was indeed faulty as those drop outs no longer occur. This thing now chuffs "like a champ!" Could the new sound board also be faulty? Well, I suppose but I don't have a supply of these to keep swapping in/out. Perhaps I should? As John suggests, I tried putting another radio board in . . . an old one. The locomotive then would not move at all! So, I can discard that old board!

Now the "complex" part. This loco was purchased used. The original owner was a Lionel tech BTW. He experienced failure of some kind while the engine was very new and installed ERR boards in it. When I received it, it ran fine, had whistle and bell, but sound dropouts were frequent and seemingly becoming more so. Also, high speed sound was a horrble, seemingly out of synch. cacaphony of inappropriate racket!

The unit had v 4.1 CC board, still current, I believe. I have not replaced it. Just replaced the old RS boards with the single, new, RS board now current. Also a new radio board.

But the old sound boards, producing the droputs and poor high speed sound, were not current. I attach an image of them. Note the owner hard wired a jumper from the R2LC08 board through a resistor to a wire running to both the old RS board and to the CC v4.1 board. No idea why he did this but it certainly wasn't just for the fun of it! Of course there is no such connection from the new RS board and radio board I have installed. There is nothing like it mentioned in the ERR manuals. But, could it be that the fact I do not have that jumper installed explain the strange behaviour? And missing bell/whistle?

I really thought this was going to turn out to be a "running TMCC engines with a DCS system" issue rather than a board issue, which is why I posted it here. Guess I'm not sure of that now.

Seems very strange to have the engine running so well, and chuffing so well, but no bell, no whistle and not starting up and shutting down as a properly configured TMCC engine should. And running ONLY when the DCS remote is in REL mode?

Without splattering my problems all over the forums, Id like to ask the DCS folk about why a TMCC engine might move with the remote in REL mode and refuse to move otherwise. Certainly my other TMCC engines do not operate that way when run with DCS.

Thanks to anyone with the stomach to wade through all this!

Well, I see one major issue if those wires go anywhere but the proper place!  The trigger input has a floating ground, and if either of those wires go to frame ground, the RailSounds board usually cooks!  I've seen it with one that someone made a wiring mistake on.  From the ERR RS Commander manual...

Thanks, John.

Seems puzzling. My reed switch is wired to the CC board and there only.

I have nothing in the RS board from the reed switch. The terminal in the pic you attached is empty on my RS board. Yet the engine chuffs beautifully? And the board would blow instantly, if any wires connected the reed switch to chassis ground, would it not?

Now, I could try disconnecting the reed switch from the CC board and connecting it to the RS board instead. But why is the CC board labeled with inputs from the reed switch?d

 Perhaps, just perhaps, it is only necessary to connect the reed switch directly to the sound board for sound installs only, with no CC present, as for a conventional only set up?

Your previous picture, reproduced below, showed a connection to the trigger input.  That input should ONLY be connected directly to a chuff switch, either mechanical or reed switch.  It should NEVER go to any signal that shares frame ground.  The Cruise Commander DC ground is also frame ground, hence the caution.  Are you saying this isn't connected?

John:

Clearly, I am confused. I was quite wrong to say that connector on the RS board was empty.

It is not! In fact, it is indeed,  connected to the reed switch! Apologies for getting this wrong. Not sure how I did that. Confusing an already confused situation even more!

Still confused about that "Chuff In" terminal on the CC board though. Mine has the PRGRM/Run switch connected to terminals labeled 2 and 3. No. 2 is also labeled "Chuff In" in the CC manual. But mine has only the PRGRM/Run switch connected to it. Anyway, that seems hardly the problem.

Question really remains is why no whistle or bell? Why no "normal" TMCC startup or shutdown? But beautiful running in both FWD and Rev and beautiful chuffing? But engine only moves at all with DCS Remote in REL mode? Wish I had another new RS board on hand to try, but I do not.

My head is starting to hurt!

I very rarely use the direct input to the RailSounds board as you are correct that the chuff input to the Cruise Commander will indeed give you audio.  The PGM/RUN switch should be connected to the first and third terminals, the chuff is the second terminal.  Your connections are wrong in your picture for the PGM/RUN switch.  Connections below...

The PGM/RUN, Chuff, Front & Rear Lamps, and "Feature aka Smoke)" are all ground referenced, that's the Common terminals.  The smoke resistor should not go to the commons there, but to the AC Common (frame ground).  The fact that you have no whistle or bell suggests you have a problem with the wiring between the two units, or the R2LC or RailSounds board has a problem.

Your comment about sounds starting up right away suggests no serial data being sensed by the RailSounds board.

Hmmm . . .I swear these wires are jumping around on their own! I go back and read what I wrote and half of it seems wrong!

First off, my reed switch is NOT connected to the CC board. Never was! It is connected to the RS board ONLY! Reason for my confusing this is in the next paragraph.

Now, part of my confusion was assuming this thing was correctly wired in the first place. There IS a wire into terminal 2 on the CC. This is labeled as "Chuff In" in the manual and I guess I "assumed" that was coming from the reed switch. But it is not! It is from the PRGRM/Run switch! Please see the attached image.

So, it appears my PRGRM/Run switch is incorrectly wired to the CC board. Has been all along! It is definitely connected to terminals 2 and 3, as I indicated in my previous pic of the CC terminals in the ERR manual for the reed switch, and you pointed out as being incorrect. The PRGRM/Run switch is NOT connected to terminals 1 and 3 as the manual says it should be! It never has been! And the reed switch has never been connected to the CC board at all, only to the sound board.

So, I wonder . . .

I did a continuity test on the Serial wires by sticking small sewing needles into the connector ports and using a multimeter. They passed and are connected properly so it's a mystery why the serial data seems not to be getting to the RS board. But, could this whole situation be due to the P/R switch being incorrectly wired from the get go?

Seems I should move the wire from the #2 terminal on the CC to terminal # 1 where it belongs? I note there are three terminals on the P/R switch, only two of which are connected. The center terminal on the switch is shown in the manual as being connected to terminal #1. The outside lead is shown on terminal #3. On my engine, the center lead goes to #3 so, it looks like I should move both wires coming from the P/R switch? Moving these wires will be simple enough to do, but I fear things like blue flashes should this be the wrong thing to do! How did the previous owner get this thing to run properly in the first place with the P/R switch miswired? And it WAS running properly when I received it . . . with whistle and bell too. But, with the P/R switch miswired, who the heck knows what might have happened when I configured the engine into the DCS controller?

Clearly, I'd move the wire for the PGM/RUN switch to the right place.  I have noticed that the chuff comes from both the R2LC and the RS board, but sometimes if one is triggered, the other one doesn't function.  This is with RS4 boards, don't know if it applies to these.

Thanks, again, John.

In the process of switching the wires from the P/R switch I removed the CC board from the tender for better access to the terminals and found a loose wire from the "AC Common" terminal floating about underneath the board. As in the picture. Not sure what this wire was connected to, if anything? I don't see anything like it in the manuals? As far as I can tell, this loose wire was never connected??

I have not tried to power the engine since switching the P/R switch wires to terminals 1 and 3 where they are supposed to be. Would like to ask about this loose wire before applying power.

Clearly, the key question would be what's on the other end of that wire?  Where it's connected would really tell us a lot about what it's function is.

Sorry John, thought I was clear about that. It's connected only to the "AC Common" terminal on the CC board. The other end is loose . . . not connected to anything. It "ends" in the image at the yellow arrowhead in the upper RHS of the image.

I repeat that this engine was already worked on before I got it. Heaven only knows what was installed in it before these ERR boards.

I also note that there are two wires connected to the CC board labeled "AC Hot (3rd)."

One from the engine tether and the second from the pickup roller of the tender. Nothing like that is shown in the ERR CC manual. Strikes me, this "loose" wire was likely connected to the ground strap bridging the wheels on one of the tender trucks? Think I found where it was connected. It's a VERY fine wire! Maybe I broke it without knowing? I have resoldered it and the picture shows it.

Might be time to set this thing on the tracks and see what happens? (Fingers very much crossed)

Well, I've test run the engine. It is as before. No change at all.

Runs beautifully in FWD and Rev.

Headlight and backup lights are fine.

Chuffs wonderfully.

Rear coupler fires on command with clanking sound.

Idle sounds are wonderful.

But . . . still . . .

Only runs with DCS remote in REL mode. Will not move at all otherwise.

No whistle or bell and does not start up and shutdown as a TMCC engine should.

Sounds starts as soon as track power is applied and only way to shut the engine down is to kill track power.

I'm guessing that "extra" was to bring a better ground directly from the truck.  Many times, grounding to the frame doesn't get a good ground from the wheels as you only have the truck pivot point bringing in the ground.  Connecting a ground directly to the truck is a better option.