Replacing a K-line Electronic Reverse Unit with a Lionel Electronic Reverse Unit

You can use the Lionel reverse unit.  I'm shocked that any reverse unit is for DC only,

After looking up the reverse unit in it, I'm about 99% sure it's an AC compatible reverse unit.  Right at the end there's a big bridge rectifier, That's a dead giveaway.

Dumb question, have you tried it on AC?

@trains52 posted:

It is DC Operation only. I would like to wire it for AC only...

It is AC/DC right now as it is.  The Lionel 103 unit will preserve AC/DC operation as well.

As John and Rob said above, YES, you can use the Lionel reverse unit circuit board. But be aware the colors of the wires are different between the two boards. K-Line (I don't know about the K-Line by Lionel stuff, though it was also produced by the same Chinese factory) used red, black, yellow and blues wires. The red and black went to the pick up parts of the truck and the yellow and blue went to the motors.

Lionel uses Red, black, brown and grey wires and if memory serves me right, the brown and grey wires go to the pick ups on the truck and the red and black go to the motors. Though I'd have to pop a shell of one of my Lionel locos to be absolutely sure, but at any rate, the wires colors and placement destination from the two boards are not identical.

As an aside, there are many parts on the basic K-Line and Lionel train, like plastic knuckle couplers and the rivet pins, that look to be identical, but there are subtle differences and they don't always fit from one brand to the other without some small tinkering or modification.

EDIT: I just looked at one of my Lionel diesels with DC truck mounted motors, and can see it is the red and black wires from the original Lionel board that go to the motor.

Lots of options for electronic E units. I have used a Williams E unit to fix my K-Line semi scale Hudson. Dallee makes one that would work too. Usually only four wires involved, two to the track and two to the motor(s).

Pete

Thanks for the help guys, will try the Lionel unit as soon as I catch up with some other repairs I am doing.

Hi

My 2007, K-Line, 2 motor Alco diesel also has the 691 EMD 037 board. It has burned out. Is the Lionel 600-0103-001 a good replacement?

@Madlove posted:

Hi

My 2007, K-Line, 2 motor Alco diesel also has the 691 EMD 037 board. It has burned out. Is the Lionel 600-0103-001 a good replacement?

The Lionel 600-0103-001 a good replacement, there are other more robust options.

The Williams electronic E-units work well and seem to be in great demand.

@BOB WALKER posted:

The Williams electronic E-units work well and seem to be in great demand.

I know when I have some from an upgrade, there seems to be a willing market for them.

I would NOT recommend a Lionel 103 reverse unit. It doesn't have the output power for the K line motors, A Bachmann electronic reverse would be a better choice.

Bachmann E-units are the Williams units.

So is there a particular model # I should look for re the Bachmann / Williams?

How about this? https://www.hobbylinc.com/bach...trical-accessory-249

@Madlove posted:

How about this? https://www.hobbylinc.com/bach...trical-accessory-249

My goodness!  Post a WTB here, I typically sell that board for about 1/3 that price!  I get them from upgrades as a rule.

Thanks John, is that unit the way to go? If so, I’d like to buy from you.

@Chuck Sartor posted:

I would NOT recommend a Lionel 103 reverse unit. It doesn't have the output power for the K line motors, A Bachmann electronic reverse would be a better choice.

Chuck, please correct me if I'm wrong.

Lionel used that 103 reverse board on their dual motored engines, with the truck mounted motors. And those type of Lionel engines are not the speed demons the similar type of K-Line engines are, which leads me to believe the K-Line motors are a lower voltage than the Lionel ones. I have a dual motored 1990's vintage Lionel engine on my layout right now and it needs the A-U setting from my 1033 transformer, whereas the K-Line engines need the B-U setting.

Now if @Madlove was referencing one of the K-Line engines with larger vertical motors, then yes, not enough output power. Likewise yes, if it was one of the K-Line Alco FA's with 4 motors: K-Line used a larger board on those 4 motored Alco pairs that also had a tether cord between the two units. My New Haven K-Line Alco came with 4 motors, but Madlove's K-Line by Lionel NH Alco only has 2 motors*, so the Lionel 103 type reverse board should be fine. I personally have used the Lionel board in dual truck mount motored K-Line locos with no problems at all.

*The easy visual way to tell these apart, is the K-Line double A NH Alco FA had black trucks. The K-Line by Lionel NH Alco had silver painted trucks.

Yeah, you can always spend more money and get a better quality board, like even a Dallee, but it really isn't necessary in this case by my thinking.

@brianel_k-lineguy posted:

Yeah, you can always spend more money and get a better quality board, like even a Dallee, but it really isn't necessary in this case by my thinking.

Well, the fact that the existing board went up in smoke would lead me to believe that it might be smart to use something a bit more robust.

Following these replies closely, thanks. The original board went up in smoke because I re-wired it wrong in what I now call the Great Motors In Series Debacle of 2021. I’m going to try the Lionel replacement, I have one already in the mail. And I’ll try to match up the different colored wires.

Hi Madlove,

I too have a K-Line S-2 Diesel loco that I was planning to convert from parallel to series wiring.  But after seeing your comment about the "Great Motors In Series Debacle of 2021" I'm wondering what went wrong.  Would you care to share what happened so none of us will repeat the issue?

John

@CA John posted:

Hi Madlove,

I too have a K-Line S-2 Diesel loco that I was planning to convert from parallel to series wiring.  But after seeing your comment about the "Great Motors In Series Debacle of 2021" I'm wondering what went wrong.  Would you care to share what happened so none of us will repeat the issue?

John

Hi John,

Others have done the job here with no issues so please don’t be discouraged from the project. I take the blame for starting a snowball rolling I couldn’t stop. It started out with my asking for advice on which wires should be cut and spliced. I received some input and was grateful for the support. Unfortunately they turned out to be the wrong wires. Apparently the wire colors on my engine were different from the instructions I received. So then I attempted to reverse the work I did and my soldering skills and tools are pretty poor to begin with. Then I took the engine apart to see what color wires went to the motors and cut and spliced them. That didn’t seem to have any affect on the speed of the engine. So I thought I’d just forget it and put everything back the way it was. But that entailed a lot of bad soldering and burning wires to the point it was ridiculous. So, on more advice, I got rid of the burned white board and joined the wires up with wire nuts. That cleaned everything up and the train ran again, but only in reverse. So I started switching out wires and in turn smoked my E Unit. I just received the Lionel replacement E Unit today and it came with no wires attached. Wasn’t expecting that. It’s been one wrong turn after another, basically just trying to get back to the point before I did anything. I should have done more homework and less shortcuts.

If it is the less expensive S-2 with truck mount motors, then it would be OK, If it is the better quality version with vertical motors, then no. The 103 Lionel reverse unit is maxed out power wise with 2 small motor diesels. If used with the better S-2, it would overheat the small power triacs and eventually fail. Now that I think about it, the premium S2 only has 1 motor, but is ballasted (the frame). Still iffy at best.

I believe those "power triacs" are actually transistors on the 103 reverse board, part of the reason it doesn't handle large motors well.  Also, with no heatsinking, they don't really have the capability even if they were triacs.

Madlove,

Thanks for the reply.  I will definitely do more research before cutting any wires.  My unit has the truck mounted motors so it's good to know that there are replacement boards available if needed in the future.   I'm wondering if anyone has updated the lighting to LEDs?   That's probably a topic for a different thread.

John

I know this shouldn’t be so difficult but I’m having a **** of time getting my engine back to running. The Lionel E Unit arrived to replace the 691 EMD 037 E Unit that came with the train.

On the 691 EMD 037 E Unit, the wire colors were 2 whites, 1 blue, 1 brown, 1 red and 1 black.

On the Lionel, the wire colors are blue, white, black, red, gray and brown.

The wires coming from each motor are blue, black, red and brown. The blues and browns are attached to the motor. The reds go to the rollers. That leaves the blacks, which is the ground(?). There’s two white wires that go to the switch  and there’s a black and red wire that run from the front of train, for the headlight and ground(?). I’ve attached pics.

How do I do this? What connects to what?

I thought the match up was as follows: The 2 white wires go to the switch. So they would connect with the blue and white wires on the Lionel.

The blue and brown wires are connected to the motors. So 2 blues would connect with the Lionel black and the 2 browns would connect with the Lionel red.

The red wires go to the rollers so they would connect with the gray Lionel wire.

That leaves the black wires, which would connect with the Lionel brown wire.

Obviously, I’m wrong and missing something important.

If anyone has any suggestions, please let me know. Thanks, Chris

The wiring colors between the 2 brands are not the same. On the Lionel reverse unit:

The brown is the ground connection

The gray is the center roller connection

Black and red wires are to the motor

And the blue/white wires are the on/off switch.

Double check with a meter the K-line truck wiring. Be sure which wires are ground and pick-up and which two wires are going to the motors. You sound like you have the reverse unit wiring right, so I suspect the problem is you don't have the truck wiring correct.

@Madlove posted:

Hi John,

I just received the Lionel replacement E Unit today and it came with no wires attached. Wasn’t expecting that. It’s been one wrong turn after another, basically just trying to get back to the point before I did anything. I should have done more homework and less shortcuts.

Interesting, I ordered 3 of those 0103 e-units last year at the parts sale, and 2 arrived ok, the third had short stubs of wire (maybe 1/8" long) where the other two had full length, brown, grey, black and red wires. I called them, they quickly sent out another one. Somebody at Lionel has no qualms about tossing used parts in with new parts.

George

@Chuck Sartor posted:

The wiring colors between the 2 brands are not the same. On the Lionel reverse unit:

The brown is the ground connection

The gray is the center roller connection

Black and red wires are to the motor

And the blue/white wires are the on/off switch.

Double check with a meter the K-line truck wiring. Be sure which wires are ground and pick-up and which two wires are going to the motors. You sound like you have the reverse unit wiring right, so I suspect the problem is you don't have the truck wiring correct.

Thanks Chuck. I checked the truck wiring and it was blue and brown to the motors, red to the rollers and black to the ground.

I remember from the 691 E Unit all the reds were together and all the blacks. So I took the 3 red wires and joined them with the Lionel gray and took the 3 black wires and joined them with the Lionel brown.

The 2 whites from the switch I joined with the Lionel blue and white wires.

Then I tried every combination I could think of for the blue and brown wires coming from the engines with the Lionel red and black wires. When I would test and apply power the horn would blast and then the brick breakers would trip.

Looks like this is beyond me. Maybe something else is going on. Can anyone recommend someone who will do a K-Line engine repair?

you could send it to me. Email in profile if interested.

Chuck