Running a TMCC Allegheny Virginian Locomotive with my Legacy 990 Control System

Yes, check out this video

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WUHksEXLbeM

Yes, Legacy is a second generation upgrade of TMCC.  It can definitely operate TMCC locomotives.

George

@Raven87 posted:

Just to verify, I can run a Lionel Steam Loco that is TMCC controlled with my 990 Legacy system without any modifications right? I’ve never owned a TMCC unit, having jumped back into the hobby early last year with Legacy only and now have five Legacy diesels.

I love every one and now I want to try the steam genre for something different.  But - will I be disappointed with the TMCC vs. Legacy Engine? I have all 060 curves and 072 switches so I think it should run ok since I’m considering something like a 2-8-4 or even a maybe 2-6-6-4 etc - but not a Big Boy (yet)!

You can run anything that the old CAB1 will run with the Legacy system with one exception.  The old original TMCC PowerMaster track controller only works with a CAB1.  There is a work-around for that.

FWIW, forget about the scale Big Boy on O60 curves, I can tell you for sure the Vision Line BB or the MTH scale BB will NOT make it around.  The locomotive makes the turn, the centipede tender hops off the rails.

@wmcwood posted:

Yes, check out this video

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WUHksEXLbeM

The video was very helpful. I’m not sure though if I have a TMCC Loco, wouldn’t I select ‘TMCC’ instead of CAB1 under the ‘CONTROL’ options? Or did I miss something?

Do I need a TMCC control base or similar or does my 990 do it all?

Thanks again.

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

You can run anything that the old CAB1 will run with the Legacy system with one exception.  The old original TMCC PowerMaster track controller only works with a CAB1.  There is a work-around for that.

FWIW, forget about the scale Big Boy on O60 curves, I can tell you for sure the Vision Line BB or the MTH scale BB will NOT make it around.  The locomotive makes the turn, the centipede tender hops off the rails.

Thanks GRJ. Do I need the TMCC PowerMaster Track controller to run the TMCC engine?

Your help is very much appreciated.

@Raven87 posted:

Thanks GRJ. Do I need the TMCC PowerMaster Track controller to run the TMCC engine?

No, the PowerMaster is for controlling track power from the TMCC/Legacy remote for conventional operation.  If you run command, you just need a constant voltage on the track.  I personally use the PowerHouse 180 bricks for my layout.

Your #990 does it all.

For larger locomotives, consider Lionel's LC + 2.0 versions. Although they do not come with all Legacy features, they are "close" to scale in size and will run down to O-31 curves. 

Thanks again GRJ. I also use the PowerHouse 180W power supply (18v output) so that should be fine, right?

So I just bought a lightly used Lionel (6-28028) Allegheny Virginian 2-6-6-6 with TMCC. It is supposed to run on 054s so I hope I’m good there.

Any advice for running this particular unit especially using the Legacy Control or about the engine itself?

@Richie C. posted:

Your #990 does it all.

For larger locomotives, consider Lionel's LC + 2.0 versions. Although they do not come with all Legacy features, they are "close" to scale in size and will run down to O-31 curves.

Thank you Richie C.
Wouldn’t these LC2+ units require the LC App or LC controller vs the 990 system?

@Raven87 posted:

Thanks again GRJ. I also use the PowerHouse 180W power supply (18v output) so that should be fine, right?

So I just bought a lightly used Lionel (6-28028) Allegheny Virginian 2-6-6-6 with TMCC. It is supposed to run on 054s so I hope I’m good there.

Any advice for running this particular unit especially using the Legacy Control or about the engine itself?

The PH180 is perfect, great circuit breaker and a constant 18 volts.  It's so good I use a bunch of them!

The Allegheny is a nice piece, I actually have that exact one.  I embellished mine with ERR cruise and a Super-Chuffer II.  I can't directly comment on O54 running, I have O72 and larger curves.  It's a bog-standard TMCC locomotive, so it'll run just like any other TMCC locomotive using the Legacy system.  As I mentioned, it doesn't have cruise control stock, so you'll find it's speed varies with grades, curves, and loading.

@Raven87 posted:

Thank you Richie C.
Wouldn’t these LC2+ units require the LC App or LC controller vs the 990 system?

No - the LC+ 2.0 locomotives can be operated via the Lionel App (a free download), but it is not mandatory.

One of the many features of the LC+ 2.0 engines is that they can be operated via several control systems - Blue Tooth via the Lionel app or the Universal Remote; command control (TMCC or Legacy); or with a conventional transformer. Some will also operate via Lionel's new Voice Control.

I have the LC+ 2.0 Big Boy and operate it with my Legacy system and like it a lot.

@Raven87 posted:

Thank you Richie C.
Wouldn’t these LC2+ units require the LC App or LC controller vs the 990 system?

Lionchief 2.0 units can be run from the LC remote, the app, or can be run via the legacy controller as well, that is one of the things that differentiate it from LC +.

Be sure to set the stall on your locomotive.

@RixTrack posted:

Be sure to set the stall on your locomotive.

Ok - thank you for the tip!

Ok, so I got the TMCC Allegheny (6-28028)  unboxed and on the track and of course I have some questions. But first - what a beautiful locomotive! The detail is amazing. As is the weight! What a monster, both the locomotive and the tender!
Questions…

I'm using my 990 Legacy system so when setting up to control the engine should I set it on Cab 1 or TMCC? My other units are all Legacy diesels so this TMCC Steamer is a much different animal.

When running with it set to Cab 1 I do not have any indication what speed step it is at? Should there be an indication?
Speaking of speed, I do SERIOUSLY miss the Legacy Odyssey speed control - anything I can do to add or improve the variability?

I’ve set the stall per the instructions but still the (dim?) headlight will keep blinking. Any secret to this?
And even with the stall set (IF I did set it right?) the locomotive does not start out at a smooth, slow crawl - is this because it’s not a Legacy?
Are the headlight/tender reverse lights supposed to be dim, almost yellow? I do have 18.1+ volts to the track but they still seem really dim?
Are the number boards supposed to be illuminated? These are not  

I’m sure I may have more but these are the ones that I am most curious about after my first test runs today  

Any and all advice is greatly appreciated!

With the stock motor driver board, you should be using the TMCC engine type when configuring this locomotive.  That will also give you a speed graph on the CAB2.

You can add the ERR Cruise Commander M (CC-M) board to replace the stock DCDR to give the locomotive cruise control.  This is a huge improvement, and it's a mandatory upgrade for any of my stuff that has the old DCDR motor control board.  The CC-M also gives you 100 speed steps vs. 32 speed steps for the stock DCDR driver board.  You'll have MUCH better low speed performance and smoother running by far with the CC-M.  The installation of the CC-M is a pretty simple affair, typically one wire from the CC-M to the serial data from the R2LC board socket and a couple of plugs.

The lighting is 3mm incandescent bulbs, they're not the brightest things in the world.  FWIW, when I upgraded my Allegheny for my Super-Chuffer, I also replaced all the lighting with LED lighting, it's a night and day difference!

Thank you John! I will definitely try it with it configured as TMCC vs CAB-1.

Do you sell any of those parts upgrades or should I source them from a vendor?

I had more time to spend getting acquainted with the unit this morning. I found out that I was causing the flashing headlight because when I would select the Allegheny on my Cab2 I would hit ‘set’ like I usually do for my Legacy diesels. Apparently this was telling the system I was wanting to set the stall again. My bad. I also lubed and greased it as recommended in the manual and let it run solo for a while before attaching 7 coal hoppers for more easy run/break in time given the drivers and tender wheels all looked like they were new.

I have noticed that it has seemed to have settled down a bit in the speed variations oin curves and on slight grades the longer it runs which seems to be what I’ve read about these particulate motored locomotives? Or is just my hopeful imagination? Regardless I’m going to get and install that CC-M unit for sure. I really want better low speed performance!

Thanks again.

Does this have a can motor?  If it does there is no reason to set a stall on it.  Stall was made for TMCC engines with a Pulmor motor.

Actually, stall does work with can motors if you don't have cruise.  However, it's a bandaid, and it's far better to install the Cruise Commander M in this locomotive and add cruise.

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

Actually, stall does work with can motors if you don't have cruise.  However, it's a bandaid, and it's far better to install the Cruise Commander M in this locomotive and add cruise.

Interesting.  Never had an issue other than Pulmors.

The box says ‘High Torque Pittman Motor’. Is that the same as a Pullmor?

@MartyE posted:

Interesting.  Never had an issue other than Pulmors.

I don't know about "issue", but without cruise, you have to go quite a few clicks up on the throttle to get moving.  You can use stall to have it start on the first couple of detents, same as a Pullmor.  Obviously, this is all optional, and since everything I can upgrade gets cruise control, it's a minor issue for me.

Oddly enough, I find the small motorized units without cruise normally start up on the first couple of throttle clicks without doing anything.

@Raven87 posted:

The box says ‘High Torque Pittman Motor’. Is that the same as a Pullmor?

No that is a can motor.  It runs on DC.  Pulmor's are the classic Lionel AC motor.  Typically they take a lot more voltage to get moving so "Stall" was setup to initially jump the voltage feeding the motor to just where it would start to move so you didn't have to keep turning the throttle to that point.

@Raven87 posted:

The box says ‘High Torque Pittman Motor’. Is that the same as a Pullmor?

No, the Pittman motor is the Cadillac of motors for our model trains.  Before about 2006-7, that was the standard for big steam from Lionel and MTH.  Around that time, Pittman was bought by Ametek, and the motors skyrocketed in price and the model train manufacturers went to alternatives not long after that.  By around 2009, Pittman was no longer used in most model train products.  I think one of the last ones I've seen is the Vision Line Big Boy from 2014 still has a Pittman motor, but that's an oddity.

Thanks guys. So installing the CC-M will help a lot then for low speed control?

It will be night and day between the old DCDR and the CC-M!  You'll have vastly better low speed performance and steady speeds.  The CC-M typically works considerably better than the old TMCC Odyssey as far as low speed performance.  It starts at a slower speed and has finer resolution, 100 speed steps for the CC-M vs 32 speed steps for Odyssey I.

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

It will be night and day between the old DCDR and the CC-M!  You'll have vastly better low speed performance and steady speeds.  The CC-M typically works considerably better than the old TMCC Odyssey as far as low speed performance.  It starts at a slower speed and has finer resolution, 100 speed steps for the CC-M vs 32 speed steps for Odyssey I.

Thank you GRJ. I’m ordering one today. Is there a vendor you would recommend?

CC-M ordered and should be here in a few days.

Should the Stall be set without any consist or reset with each varying load?

Will Stall still be required to be set once my CC-M is installed?

Is the Momentum feature even useful with or without the CC-M on the Steam units? I’ve tried to adjust it but the locomotive does not seem to respond no matter the setting. It will still stop abruptly regardless. The only time I hear any ‘brake squeal’ is if use the ‘Brake/Boost’ rocker on my Cab2?

Raven, I just did this upgrade on my version of the same steamer.  I also used John's chuff generator.  I am very pleased with how mine runs now!  I did learn that momentum does not work with R100, only if you set the control type to TMCC.  Mine doesn't stop abruptly, unless I use the direction button, then it does.  If I use the brake feature slowly, or turn the throttle, it slows down per my input.

@Raven87 posted:

Should the Stall be set without any consist or reset with each varying load?

Will Stall still be required to be set once my CC-M is installed?

Is the Momentum feature even useful with or without the CC-M on the Steam units? I’ve tried to adjust it but the locomotive does not seem to respond no matter the setting. It will still stop abruptly regardless. The only time I hear any ‘brake squeal’ is if use the ‘Brake/Boost’ rocker on my Cab2?

Stall has no function when you have cruise control, the locomotive should start on the first speed step regardless of the load.

There is no "optimum" way to set stall, typically it's set once.  It isn't perfect, it's just a crutch.  It was mostly used for the AC Pulmore motor as it takes many clicks of the throttle to get most of them to start moving without the stall set.

Thank you both, I really appreciate the advice and observations. My CC-M is supposed to arrive in the few days so I’m excited to get it installed.
Hopefully, the install goes well.
I really want to see good low speed control which to me is more ‘realistic’ than what I have now. After getting used to my Legacy diesels and the crawling they can do moving out, this current TMCC control/reaction is so different.

This is currently about the slowest I can get it to run pulling 18 coal hoppers.  I can get it a little slower but then it will stall. Is this what you normally see?
I really love this locomotive and it will not be my only/last steam powered unit. While it negotiates the 060 curves on my layout ok, I am going to upgrade the curves on at least my main line to 072 or even 084 if I can create the room.

@Raven87 posted:

Thank you both, I really appreciate the advice and observations. My CC-M is supposed to arrive in the few days so I’m excited to get it installed.
Hopefully, the install goes well.
I really want to see good low speed control which to me is more ‘realistic’ than what I have now. After getting used to my Legacy diesels and the crawling they can do moving out, this current TMCC control/reaction is so different.

Here's a sample CC-M install.  This is actually not the slowest one I have, it was just parked on the layout so it was easy to get a video.  It'll do this all the way around, including curves and grades.

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

Here's a sample CC-M install.  This is actually not the slowest one I have, it was just parked on the layout so it was easy to get a video.  It'll do this all the way around, including curves and grades.

Wow! That is incredible and I will be thrilled with that. Thanks for sharing that vid GRJ.

You should easily attain similar performance, that's the huge benefit of cruise control.

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

You should easily attain similar performance, that's the huge benefit of cruise control.

That is so amazing. Thank you!