Running DCS PS3 on conventional layouts

If DCS is not installed on a layout, there is no DCS signal being generated to be received by the locomotive. A PS3 locomotive would therefore start up in conventional mode. No need for a reset.

We've had to reset a couple of Proto-3 engines to factory default for them to run on a conventional layout after they had been addressed and run under DCS. These were earlier Proto-3 units, so I don't know if this has been changed in later firmware versions.

AGHRMatt posted:

We've had to reset a couple of Proto-3 engines to factory default for them to run on a conventional layout after they had been addressed and run under DCS. These were earlier Proto-3 units, so I don't know if this has been changed in later firmware versions.

Matt

I never experienced this issue but good to know.

Thanks

A little off-topic.  But I remember when PS3 first came out, some folks observed that the electronics didn't allow the loco to "coast" in conventional mode.  MTH neither acknowledged nor denied the issue.  Does anyone know if this was ever addressed?

In other words:  Recent-issue PS3.  No DCS signal or TIU.  The loco is moving along at a good clip and you press DIR, or yank the plug out. What happens?  

You are correct, this was discussed before. Apparently, there are some misconceptions about what the super capacitors can and cannot do and this question illustrates that. When you drop track power- the motors no longer get track power. The supercaps ONLY power the logic electronics and the sound. So, the only coasting will be the momentum in the flywheels. This would be true of just about any locomotive- Williams, Lionel, K-line, and yes, MTH.

So side by side, a Lionel, an MTH, and a Williams, they all do the same thing- coast based on the flywheel, but there are differences in gearing so soem locomotives like Williams cost longer. MTH typically has a greater gear ratio, so the spindown of the motor moves a slightly lesser track distance.

Thanks Jetguy.  The controversy arose because some early PS3 locos stopped very abruptly, in a manner that was different from their PS2 predecessors.  What I'm asking, is this still true of the latest PS3 releases?  Did MTH ever issue a firmware update or anything to increase coasting distance?

Jetguy posted:

Ted S posted:

Thanks Jetguy.  The controversy arose because some early PS3 locos stopped very abruptly, in a manner that was different from their PS2 predecessors.  What I'm asking, is this still true of the latest PS3 releases?  Did MTH ever issue a firmware update or anything to increase coasting distance?

I think most of this is flywheel size and gearing- not electronics and not firmware.

Well, in this case, you'd be 100% wrong.

There is a known issue that many PS/3 locomotives will stop very suddenly when power is lost, it's been discussed here at length. 

I just trotted out two locomotives, one a PS/2 RS-3, and one a PS/3 GP-9.  They were selected because they were sitting on a siding, so it was easy to run the test.  I ran each one with an old 1033 transformer around a loop at about 40-45 scale MPH.  When I remove the power, the PS/2 locomotive goes 6-7 inches before it's stopped.  The PS/3 locomotive slams to a stop in less than an inch.  This is repeatable with most PS/2 and PS/3 locomotives.  I only say "most" as I obviously haven't tried them all.  FWIW, both locomotives have the same size Mabuchi motors with similar sized flywheels.

This is, as Ted correctly points out, a PS/3 electronic board issue.  As to whether it's circuitry or firmware, that's hard to say. There is not nearly enough information is available about either firmware or PS/3 electronics, at least to anyone here. 

This is not a mechanical and/or flywheel size issue.  This has also been a complaint with PS/3 upgrades for the same reason.

There, removed bad info.

Ted S posted:

A little off-topic.  But I remember when PS3 first came out, some folks observed that the electronics didn't allow the loco to "coast" in conventional mode.  MTH neither acknowledged or denied the issue.  Does anyone know if this was ever addressed?

In other words:  Recent-issue PS3.  No DCS signal or TIU.  The loco is moving along at a good clip and you press DIR, or yank the plug out. What happens?  

PS/3 stops short, in less than an inch from around 40-50 scale MPH.  PS/2 coasts for 5-6 inches. I don't think this has ever been addressed.

OK but the coasting is a bit off topic. We have run into three engine we are testing that have the same problem:

Set up to run on DCS and do just fine on DCS (TIU) but when placed on a conventional layout, they do all the things they are suppose to do (lights, noises, etc) but will not move.

We are going to try to set them all up with a Factory Reset and see if anything changes on the conventional running. I know nothing of two of the engines (not mine) as for early or late PS3 but mine is the City of Denver Lionel/MTH bought about 5 years ago new (unknown as to its manufacture date). It is cataloged as an MTH product with Lionel packaging and a proclamation of DCS PS3 capabiltiies which I have proven to be true. (Yes, the DCS switch is in the correct position!)

Wednesday this week we are scheduled to test this all again under more controlled conditions and with more knowledge.

We too believe a DCS programmed engine should be able to be taken off a DCS layout and run on a conventional layout without any resetting but so far have not been able to on these three engines.

LDBennett

Different issue. A DCS factory reset is never a bad idea when you're having oddball issues.

I'd also try to do a conventional factory reset. While it seems illogical, some things are NOT affected by the DCS factory reset.

In addition, try the lock in a direction, it could be locked in neutral.

FWIW, I just noticed one of mine doing the same thing, it was purchased used, so I'll have to see what happened.  I don't run conventional, and in DCS it runs perfectly.  Mine happens to be a PS/2 model, but the instructions are the same.

After setting the chuff rate in DCS, a PS3 steam engine was locked in neutral for conventional operational. This is an anomaly but a conventional unlock (1 whistle 3 bells ) fixes it. 

Funny thing, I just unlocked my PS/2 Trainmaster.  I picked that to explain another issue and it wouldn't move in conventional.  I had never run it that way, I guess the previous owner did.

The other issue that PS-3 has that PS-2 did not is an additional FET that operates in opposition to the primary FET that controls motor motion.  PS-2 has relay and one FET.  PS-3 has Relay (same) and 2 Fets.  One FET controls motion in both directions, but the other has some other purpose that I never fully got an answer to.  But it would act like a motor brake.  The programing may control it and cause that abrupt stop.

Way long ago a repair had that FET shorted.  Engine would immediately run in reverse at power up and it was not a locked engine.  Since it was shorted, I clipped it off.  At that point I expected the engine to run in fwd with a neutral only.  To my surprise it ran in both direction without that FET.  Never got a good answer from MTH but it was put there by the design guys to controls something or limit temp.  Beyond me, but the PS-2 slave board has a similar circuit set up for the reverse direction, so...…?

Before his passing Barry wanted me to clip off the FET and test the abrupt stop feature.  I never got around to it with a test board that had some other damage like audio or such to see.  But the only way to stop it so abruptly is to apply a reverse EMF.  That fet is the only way that can happen.  G

Thanks G.  Sometime in the next year or so I might provide you with a perfectly healthy PS3 board to experiment on.  Inquiring minds want to know!

That would be an interesting test.  If that FET is defaulting to a short, that would indeed stop the locomotive in it's tracks!  I use that technique on my Super-Chuffer, it's very effective.