Running Lionel Legacy Shay Problems on 031 - BRACKET INSTALLED AND NOW PULLING CARS ON 031! NEW Video posted

Paul, it sounds like the coupler doesn't have the swing room like you say . . . but, a thought comes to mind from my experience.  You might check if you have thesame  problem I do. 

 

I have never tried to pull cars through O-31 or O-36 curves with my Shay because the loco itself will sometimes de-rail in those curves.  Mine won't run well on anything less than O-42.  The problem is the driveshaft on the side of the loco will not telescope tightly enough to let the rear truck pivot completely (i.e., it cannot pivot either as far as it seems to have been designed to pivot or as tightly as it needs to pivot in order for the loco to comfortably go through O-36 curves, nevermind O-31).  As a result, my Shay's rear trucky de-rails on O-36: what happens is that the rear truck pivots almost enough for it to make it through the O-36 curve, but not quite, and sometimes - about every other time going through an o_36 curve, the rear truck jumps up and off the rails.  Since I bought it to run on O-36, this means it is basically a shelf queen now . . .

 

If your loco had this same driveshaft telescoping/binding problem, but not quite to the same degree, it might be that the binding of the driveshaft is letting the rear truck turn some -- just enough that it barely stays on the track and the loco does not de-rail like mine -- but in a way so that the rear truck is not really pointing straight and true as it should be going through the curve but pointing to the side just a bit (at an angle to the curve's centerline) -- i.e., pointing off a bit to the side with the wheels scrapping but not quite derailing. With the truck at that angle to the centerline of the curve, even with the the coupler swung all the way through its angle of movement, it might not be enough . . .  

 

 

 

I will take a closer look later Lee at the drive shaft. I was focusing more on the coupler hitting and pulling the car off track then the angle of the truck itself, since the engine doesn't ever derail, it just pulls the first cars front truck off track. 

The Legacy Shay is a redo of the old K-Line Shay. As I recall, there was a similar issue with the K-Line engine on narrower curves, and there was a fix included with the engine. I'm not sure whether it was a different coupler or a way of remounting the coupler to give more swing on tight curves. I'll try to find the instruction manual for mine and see what that was. 

There was a thread here that had pictures of the bottom of the KLine Shay.  I searched and could not find it.  I believed there was a second mounting hole for the rear coupler that was further back allowing more swing.  If I also remember the Lionel version did not have the second mounting hole.  I have the KLine version and can check this evening.

Dan

The K-line version does indeed have a way to mount the coupler out a little more using a second screw hole for 0-31 operation. If the Lionel version doesn't have this screw I don't see why it wouldnt be possible to add a longer electrocoupler to the engine and achieve 0-31 operation.

I have the Legacy Shay and have had the same problem--runs fine by itself on O36 curves, but derails IR log cars and some other types if you try to pull anything.  The Shay now resides in a display case until such time as I have some O42 or wider curves for it to play on.

Loco Dan is correct. The K-Line engine has an extra mounting point to allow for 0-31 operation. Here are the relevant pages from the K-Line manual. 

 

Paul,

 

I have a K-Line two truck shay.  It came with a coupler bracket which could be installed (about a 10 minute project) for 031 running.  I did the installation and regularly run it on an upper 031 loop, pulling 6 logging cars, and have never had a derailment of either the shay or any of the cars.  Here are scans of the bracket and installation from the      K-Line manual.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I hope this helps.  Perhaps, you might be able to find K-Line bracket, or make a similar one for your shay.

 

George

I just finished checking the shay and the trucks on the Lionel Legacy Shay do NOT have the extra mounting position for 031!  Lionel is right though, it will run on 031 and very nicely I might add, but just can't hook up anything to it. Since this is the K-Line shay tooling they should have realized that the 031 mounting position is critical to having the engine being of any use at what Lionel states it can run on. Another headache for Mike R. to have to deal with.

Trust me, Lionel is not alone with this "minimum diameter" thing.  The new MTH Evolution Hybrid that I picked up recently specifies O31 on the box label and O31 in the owner's manual.  You can be sure that is not correct (although the locomotive itself may work on that tight a diameter).  I've run it on O36, but it really needs O42 if you want it to pull anything with a degree of reliability.

 

To their credit, the online product locator does specify an O42 minimum, and perhaps the catalog does as well (not sure because I didn't check).

 

Still, I'll keep that locomotive on the layout because it's just too cool for "display only" status.

It's not the most desirable fix...but sometimes you can fiddle with or even replace the coupler on the freight car coupled to the engine to give its coupler more play. Replacing it with a longer shank dummy coupler attached to the car itself will do it sometimes.

 

Not the best solution, but it beats having to re-lay curves or do without use of the engine on that branch line.

 

I've had several engines that would only operate on my curves with freight cars that had couplers that could pivot in relation to the truck. Weaver or some MTH premier cars have this side play in their freight car couplers. These would always be the first car in the consist.

 

Jim

It would be worth trying an MTH Premier car as the first car in the train, since the couplers are pivot mounted on the trucks. It still might not work, but I'd say it's worth a try. If it works, you can always change out the trucks on one of the log cars. 

Well I spent several hours trying to get this worked out, and it just isn't going to work on 031 as rated. I did find a couple of freight cars that would track behind the Shay, both were box cars, not what I want to pull, I bought it to pull logging cars to fit into a logging/sawmill scene I have planned. I will email Mike Reagan to see what if anything he recommends, if I can't get it to pull log cars on 031, I will sell it, the logging cars, and the Legacy set I bought to run it as it is too much moiney tied up in a shelf queen.

Me too as I really like the Shay. It is quite clear with the original K-Line Shay which the Lionel Legacy 2 Truck Shay is made from, that you have to change the coupler location to pull cars on 031. Should not have been missed in design and manufacturing. To re-manufacturer the rear truck I think will take quite a loooooong time.

Not sure if this would work or how difficult to obtain or create, but what about a second very short "bridge type" coupler that is added between the engine and the first car?  The bridge coupler would somehow hinge or pivot between the engine's coupler and first car's coupler and provide some additional length for tighter diameter curve clearance.

 

Alternatively, a short extension added before the shay's electro-coupler might also accomplish the same result while still maintaining the ability to use the operating electro-coupler.

As others have said the Shay is a remake of a K-Line engine.  I had the same problem with my K-Line Allegheny.  It is an 0-31 engine, but the coupler is mounted so close to the tender that it can not swing enough when going through an 0-31 curve.  I also thought about Dremeling the rear of the tender, but decided not to.

 

What works for me with both the Allegheny and the Shay is to couple the engine to a car with an articulated coupler (one that has a pivot in its drawbar, rather than being rigidly mounted to the truck).  The trick is to find one that is appropriate for what you want. 

 

Tom

    Well I heard back from Lionel on the problem with the Shay pulling cars off track that I emailed Mike R about. It simply stated that you have to run it on 036 or greater to pull any cars. The fact that it is rated at 031 seems immaterial to Lionel, and they offered NO solution or hope of one. I will be selling my Shay, and the Legacy set to control it as I have no use for an expensive shelf queen.

  

Trust me, that doesn't work well either...at least with the logging cars I've tried.

I don't have any 036, I did pull the logging cars that are made for the shay and it pulls them on 042 satisfactorily. On 031 it derails any cars every time it hits the curve. I think that Lionel's answer on this problem since it is clearly labeled as for 031 curves was totally unsatisfactory. Basically said they know it won't pull any cars at it's rated curve, but tough, they aren't doing anything to correct it.

The funny thing is, prototype Shays were designed to negotiate sharp curves and yet the models can't seem to do it. 

 

IRM's 60 ton 3-truck Shay could handle the "street radius" curve (which I'm sure is sharper than an equivalent O31 curve) on back corner of their trolley loop.

 

Rusty

The fact of the matter is this: catalog advertising of O31 curves was inaccurate. Those of you who have the shay's shipping carton will notice it has a round sticker on it that says O36 minimum curve. The online product finder also says O36. Unfortunately the specifications printed in the catalog are not always realized in the product. Reference the berkshires that had an erroneous whistle steam tag on the page, but shipped without that feature. The production and marketing team did what they thought was correct, by changing the product finder and putting the sticker on the ship carton. Unfortunately, there is little we can do from a service perspective to rectify the situation. I suppose we could string folks along with some lie about how it is being addressed, but those of you who know me and Lionel service all know that is not how we operate. We provide the facts, unfortunately they not what you want to hear sometimes, but they are always the facts. Paul, my apologies for not being able to assist in this instance, but I will not provide you with false hope that a fix is in the works, not my style. Thanks, Mike

As I've noted before, Lionel is certainly not alone with having this sort of problem (largely, I suspect, the result of relatively inexperienced folks working with various phases of the process), and I think it is incumbent on consumers to CAREFULLY confirm the operating specs for locomotives they plan to buy BEFORE they send the money or take delivery.  Granted, this would not normally be a problem with most smaller locomotives, but it sure can be a problem when it comes to larger and/or more "out of the ordinary" models.

 

Definitely another reason for patronizing your local hobby shop if you're fortunate enough to have one (and one which has an operating layout).  Try it out, and refuse delivery if it fails the minimum curve test.

 

My Shay, which I do plan to keep, does not do well on O36, but that also applies to my MTH GE Revolution Hybrid, which is, according to the box flap and owner's manual, is supposed to handle sharper curves than it actually does.  Nevertheless, I'm keeping both because I like the locomotives and at some point will fit at least part of the layout with wider curves.

 

My point is that I think it's unreasonable to expect the service folks to handle the burden of correcting things like this.  These are production-related problems, at whatever stage, and customers who purchase the products and find them incorrectly described in terms of operational capabilities should, not matter how desirable the item, simply return them for an exchange or refund.

(largely, I suspect, the result of relatively inexperienced folks working with various phases of the process)

 

I think you're being overly kind. The Legacy Shay is a remake of the K-Line Shay, which achieved full 0-31 compatibility with a provision for remounting the coupler. This feature was ELIMINATED in the re-engineering process. Surely somebody at a responsible level should have tested to determine the REAL curve capability of the re-engineered locomotive. Can it be that the production sample was only tested without cars? Sloppy coordination between engineering and marketing isn't a Lionel exclusive (I could tell you some stories about MTH, and for that matter about the original K-Line Shay), but I find Lionel's handling of this situation to be inexcusable, amounting to false advertising. It contrasts sharply with some other recent demonstrations by Lionel of excellent customer service and facing problems up front.

all Lionel catalogs have the following within the first five pages;

 

"Items depicted in this catalog are subject to change in price, color, size, design, and availability."

 

as always buyer beware.

The disclaimer noted by bigdodgetrain keeps it from being false advertising.  And really, why would they knowingly advertise one minimum radius and mean another?  Please.  Mistakes happen, much as we don't like to see them.  Your recourse is to get a refund.  I used to be in the billing side of the health care biz.  Our motto was:  "When we make mistakes, nobody dies".  Same here.

Mike that is all I can ask for is the straight up truth. I can't understand why the 031 mounting location was left off the Lionel adaptation. The engine runs around the 031 curves through the mountain beautifully, as long as nothing is hooked up to it. I'd like to be able to use it. It is unfortunate, as I can not re-engineer this complex mountain/tunnel complex so I am stuck with the 031, and I really like the Shay. Just too much money to have sit on the shelf.

I will sell it on the Forum or eBay, as I don't think the LHS where I purchased it should have to take the loss, although I know they will refund me the purchase cost if I took it back.

I wonder if you replaced the electrocouple with ones from the early production Lionel scale diesels if this would solve the problem. It would extend the coupler beyond the shell and might be just enough to make it work.

 

If you want to try this I have a friend that has a number of these Lionel electrocoupler sets, there are two in the box.

 

I'll send you an e-mail with his contact information.

Another idea. Can the extension bracket supplied with the original K-Line shays be installed on the Lionel Legacy Shay? If so there might be a number of owners of the K-Line shays that don't need them.

 

You could post on the WTB board and also on the TCA,LCAA  publications looking for the brackets.

CASS RR #6 minimum radius is 32 degrees or a minimum radius of curvature of 181.4 feet.

 

this is equivilent to O100 in O gauge.

If anyone has the K-line shay 031 coupler bracket and want to sell it please contact me.

I would hazard a guess and say that Lionel omitted it to keep costs down and they may have incorrectly figured during catalog printing it wouldn't have been an issue.

Paul the module that came with the engine should ahve set it to Legacy, however all you have to do is press the info button, then scroll over to the 4 th tab and move it from CAB-1 to Legacy

Make sure to set it t a different engine ID

So Paul, exactly what needs to be done to your shay and all the ones like yours to get them to work correctly as advertised? What would Lionel have to do?

Thank you,

Jimmy

Another mounting bracket would have to be configured that moves the coupler mount approximately 1/2 inch towards the back of the truck as it was done in the K-Line version.

Paul, how much time do you think it would take for Lionel to do this. It doesn't sound like a major project. Or would it be.

Just curious Paul, but Shay's typically push not pull.  Will your Shay push the log cars on 031?

 

Stack

I don't have any expertise to speculate Jim, I think some kind of bracket could be adapted if they wanted to correct it. In looking at the shay closely again it looks like the same mounting holes are there, all you would need to produce is the bracket that K-Line made for 031 running.

Paul

 

What do you think would be a resonable cost for this bracket?