Running Lionel Legacy Shay Problems on 031 - BRACKET INSTALLED AND NOW PULLING CARS ON 031! NEW Video posted

Firstly, a Shay does not "typically" either push or pull; it's a locomotive and certainly

was meant to do both equally well.

Secondly, the problem is actually the combination of deadly tight toy train

curves and a scale locomotive. Real Shays were built for "tight" curves, but that word

means something else in the real world.

Now if L or M or somebody would bring out a

truly small Shay (0-6-0 Docksider dimensions, plus  a bit), that would be a sweet little loco. Diesel trucks, Shay-ish side frames, fake driveshafts, moderate cost...

Just Tried and pushing made no difference.

I would think 4- 5 bucks at most.

Perpetuating this thread after Mikado's post, as above, serves no constructive purpose, eh.

Pete

I tend to disagree. Maybe by discussion someone will come up with a solution. It hasn't turned into a bash Lionel thread, but more into looking into a solution.

I have done some fairly drastic surgeries to engines ans cars to get them to reliably run through my 031 turns. I understand not wanting to take a dremel or start cutting on a brand new Legacy engine. I have always been able to come up with a solution of some sort. I would try altering the car hooked to the tender first, as noted by others. 

The Lionel Shay is a really sharp looking engine. I would love to have one. I do have a few tight turns so I would definetly do some alterations to make it work. I think I'll pick up the K-line model and add command or maybe I will wait and see if the price drops on the Lionel Legacy ones. I would guess most people buy them to run in tight areas so the sales may be light. 

I do sympathize with those that bought the Shay based on its 031 catalog description. It's a lousy position to be in and very frustrating I'm sure. I have been there a few times myself, we all have. I hope someone comes up with a fix that does not require altering the bodies. 

I wonder, what would happen if everyone who purchased this locomotive, just like Paul did, expecting it to run flawlessly 0-31 cures, based on what was advertised in the catalog, would return them to their dealers for full refund. Maybe then, Lionel would turn it up a notch and produce the small part that needed to allow 0-31 operation. After, doing so well in addressing the problem with the Conrail diesel paint job, I figured they would of handled this problem in the same way.

I would think the coupler on the lead car could be modified not to derail on O-31 curves, when coupled to the Shay.

The Shay itself will run on O31.

Problem solved.

I agree with Charlie, as I also mentioned in detail in my post a page or so back.

IMO part of model railroading is making things work. Mounting a coupler with a large lateral swing on the lead car is a matter of obtaining a long shank coupler, drilling a hole in the car floor and securing with a screw.

Select a plastic coupler from the LHS parts bin, such as from a baby Madison car and snip off the excess detail from the rear.

Eyeball how far the coupler should extend, picking a good spot on the car floor for a mounting hole. Drill the coupler shank in the appropriate spot with a hole large enough to allow a #4 screw to pass through. Drill the car floor with a slightly smaller hole and attach the coupler with a short #4 wood screw. Some shims (washers) can be added between floor and coupler to attain the correct coupler height.

I know it is not the ideal of having every car work with every locomotive on every curve straight from the box, but it beats depriving yourself of the enjoyment of running a neat looking loco.

Doing a little problem solving and coming up with solutions to problems is an everyday requirement in the world of scale model railroading, and every once in a while that approach is needed in the 3-rail world. Making things work with a little ingenuity can be very rewarding.

Jim

For the cars intended to go with the engine, there really isn't a car "floor".  These are the skeleton cars that basically just have a beam with some brackets to hold the chains that hold the log down to the "skeleton".  Not trying to say it's impossible, probably someone with machinists skills could make a good go of it, but it's likely a little harder than if it was a plastic flat car floor, I think.

I feel for Paul's problem.  Since I don't have any scenery restrictions like he does, I would have been perfectly happy to keep the one I originally ordered, but the paint situation from the original run caused me to return it.  I would still like one of these, but I can't with any good concience order one since I believe many of them still have the paint issue (though Lionel did try to improve them).

I do remember seeing the O36 sticker on the shipper for the short time I had the engine in my posession.

-Dave

Dave,

In this photo, it looks like the center beam extends far enough to provide a place for a coupler. You might have to add a rectangular pad depending on whether the beam is one solid piece. It would also serve as a shim to lower the coupler to the right height above the rails.

I'm going to have to find one of those cars to look at. Might see about mounting arch bar trucks in place of those "modern" Bettendorfs anyway....and maybe find a real "log" while I'm at it.  

Jim

Jim,

If pictures may be helpful to you, I can try to take a pic from the end of one of these for you to look at.  I've never tried to drill into it, but think the beam may be solid.  (I did have to remove the truck on one to lube the pivot point to swing a little more freely, and I think it was just a regular tapped hole for the truck screw.)

I agree that real logs look better, but these don't look so bad to me if I don't mix them together with cars with the real logs.  Not sure why Lionel changed, maybe it was with the invasion of the Stink Bugs (I think those are from China, no?) and Lionel didn't want to be responsible for "importing" any species not native to North America.

-Dave

Jim,

Sorry the lighting is so bad, but hopefully this is a little better than what you can see from the catalog image.

The wheels (in all pics) were pretty close to the position they need to be in when sittting on a piece of O31 curve track (as seen in the top picture)

-Dave

Another option for making a bracket is useing a place like Shapeways to print the model and a program like Google Sketchup to make the 3-D Cad model.  I have done this to make some mounting brackets to mount Lionel Alco Sideframes to my Lionel GP30

I guess no one has a K-Line Shay that they aren't using the 031 adapter for?????   Would love to try it on the Legacy Shay to see if that's all it would take to fix the problem. Email me if you have the K-Line Shay with the 031 adapter you aren't using, let's talk.

VaGolfer1950,

I suggest you call Robert Barth. He is a service center for Lionel and MTH plus I don't know who all. He may be able to make you this part. He is a excellant repair person. 

Jimmy

VaGolfer1950,

This is another service center in Penna. that might have the part you need or he may be able to build one.

HARRY J. CLEAVER

41 WOODLAND DRIVE

JACOBUS, PA 17407

Phone: (717) 428-2673

cleaverstrainrepair@comcast.net

I have 3 Lionel engines whose catalog listings claim O-31 capability.

All of these locomotives by themselves (with no cars attached) go around O-31 curves.

But all 3 of them derail any freight car which they pull.

In addition to the Shay, the other two are:

6-18922 Southern Pacific Diesel Switcher #1440, and
6-28363 Burlington Northern SD60 Diesel #8302.

It would be a lot more helpful to customers if Lionel would not claim "0-31" when a locomotive cannot pull a train around O-31 curves.

If others find an interest in this thread, it should be of No Concern to You. If You find no interest in this thread, just hit the back button, no further participation needed on your part.

 Others may find a solution to the OP's problem, or Hope for a solution for their own locomotives, this thread has the potential to help multiple members, just because it may have no value to YOU is no reason to kill the thread.

Doug

Jim thanks for the information. I will contact them on Monday to see what information I can report back. 

I am curious as to whether the other 2 besides the Shay were also K-Line re-tools.

Yes, it would.  But keep in mind that Lionel is not alone in this regard, as I have found out on several occasions.  While the locomotives alone may negotiate a specified diameter curve, it's really most important that it be able to pull a train through that curve.

Best advice:  Purchase from a dealer where you can test run the item if at all possible to see what it can and cannot do in every important respect.  If that is not possible, wait until you read reports on the item posted here or elsewhere that are provided by folks you trust.

If you choose to allow yourself to get involved in the preorder thing, then you're pretty much on your own unless a dealer you have established a solid relationship with will provide an exchange or refund.  If you have such a dealer, make sure he gets your repeat business--big items and small--and sincere recommendations that you share with others.  And don't try to nickel-and-dime the guy to death (which won't happen in any case once you find one you can count on to come through for you).

I agree totallyWith Doug on this...but i would like to digress a bit from the immediate solution to the program and state that the answer by Mikado is no help at all for the issue. The issue is, as I see it, a lack of information by Lionel when the actual details on a product are known. The descriptions of products on the Lionel website are not updated or updated in a timely manner. I commented a month ago on the lack of to the point information on the sequencing effects on some of the new Legacy engines and was told that I should watch the videos! I appreciate very much the excellent videos, however they are no excuse for inaccurate and incomplete website information when it is well known by the folks at Lionel. I do like go to the website for the product information before buying. I think that is why it's there.

AND...if you buy a product without looking at the latest information available on the item when Lionel does update the details, the you are at fault. It works both ways.

   Personally I think Lionel should at least look at fixing the problem if the K-Line tooling for the bracket still exists. From the diagrams posted near the beginning of the thread of the K-Line Owners Manual I'd think it would not be a hard to do. It would make these engines that run on 031 perfectly in all other regards, useable. How many more could Lionel sell if they ran and pulled freight on 031. Lots of folks don't have big spaces and to be able to run a beautiful Legacy engine like the Shay is a plus. It would be a big plus for Lionel, but I understand they have had quite a few of these fixes on new stuff to do lately.

    I appreciated Mikado posting what he did. Honesty is refreshing in today's world. My shipping carton did not have the 036 sticker as far as I saw, I will check the attic later, but I did read the Shay's Owners manual first, before purchasing it, and it clearly states inside the first page "runs on Lionel or Lionel compatible 031 curves". I don't think that it's Mike Reagan's responsibility to engineer a fix, he has enough on his plate now thanks to some production snafus, but I do think someone at Lionel should be. Just makes good business sense to me. I have made 3 Legacy purchases this year, The Legacy Command set, a SD70Ace, and the Shay. The first 2 both had to go back to Service for repair upon receipt, taken care of extremely fast and expertly by the Service Dept. I might add, and now the Shay won't pull cars at it's rated 031 curve. If it wasn't for Mike Reagan I wouldn't even consider Lionel on my next engine purchase, which may end up being a PS-3 engine instead.

Part of this discussion about the Shay in that it is supposed to handle sharper curves/steeper grades than rod-driven mainline locomotives except that our model curves are much sharper anyway. Regardless of scale, it is likely that the Shay will need larger curves for your logging line that are not in proportion with the rest of your layout especially if you use smaller curves (if you use O72 or more on your main then O42 on the logging line will look ok, but if you are using O42 or smaller then the logging line may look odd). Either the gear shafts can't compress enough on inside curves or can come apart on outside curves.

A comment was made earlier on the Shay's more likely to push instead of pull. They did both obviously but in logging road practice, for safety, the locomotive was always on the downhill side which may look like it is pushing in photographs.

As far as a minimum curve is concerned, remember that manufacturers will test these by themselves so that always just refers to the locomotive (or car) and never pulling anything. This is pretty much the same in all scales. For example, a HO 6-axle diesel (i.e. SD45) may be advertised with a 18" min radius however, you will need a 22" radius if you want to pull anything with it as the coupler swing will pull cars off the track otherwise. This just means that you should strive for the largest curves possible when designing a layout that works with your space and you need to be careful if you use a lot of equipment at the rated minimums (it may work, but it won't be optimum). If you have O72 curves, its best to limit your equipment to O-54 minimum requirements for best overall operation for example. As the trend towards more scale pieces continues, things like pilots, steps, skirting, etc will all serve to limit truck and coupler swing which will exasperate problems when running on minimum curves.

Peter

And therein lies the critical consideration that all need to keep in mind in the future.  Just because the locomotive is specified for such-and-such a curvature does not necessarily mean that it will perform well, or even at all, with a trailing consist.

I suppose a solution might be for manufacturers to specify a minimum well above the tested minimum (O42 for an engine that will negotiate O31or O36, for example), but I don't see that happening on a practical basis.  Better for the modeler to know and understand his own limitations as far as his layout configuration is concerned, and to use a bit of commonsense reasoning in determining what will or will not work well.

I don't own a Shay, but I could see an adapter plate as a fix.

What if you figured out how much further a coupler would have to be extended to make your train stay on track, and then took a strip of brass, drilled a few holes and then mounted the coupler to the strip and the strip to where the coupler mounted. This is likely all the bracket you're looking for does anyhow. It may be easier to accomplish this on the lead car instead of the engine if the engine has a coil coupler.

Another option (not pretty...) would be to glue two nonoperating couplers to a strip of styrene. Place this strip between the first car and the engine (the styrene would rest on top of the couplers). An alternate method to this would be to use two latch coupler to knuckle  adapters attached to a strip of styrene; this might actually look a bit better(?)

A third option might be to build a tool car or bobber caboose with coupler arms long enough to navigate the curves.

Hope one of these ideas work for you,

J White

Paul,

Maybe you could use styrene and extend the coupler.  Like a flat piece with a hole to mount where the coupler is now and a hole on the other end with a bushing to fit in the coupler. Then it could pivot in two places.

Just a thought,Doug

I have a couple of couplers on route to see if it makes a difference.

Good Evening Paul,

Where you able to get in touch with the two gentlemen I recommended. If you did, were they able to help you?

Sorry Jim, had a doctor's appointment today and being my birthday never had time to get around to it, will be making some calls tomorrow. I did receive a coupler that is longer that I will try tomorrow also.

Happy Birthday Paul!  Hope you have had a great day.

Happy railroading,

Don

Did those parts you ordered work?

I am still waiting for the bracket from Brauseurs that I ordered to arrive, it isn't the K-Line Shay bracket they didn't have that in stock, but another adapter I think might work. I just tried a longer coupler that Don sent me to try. It didn't make a difference, each time the first car derailed as soon as it hit the curve.

   I held the coupler in place temporarily where the adapter should have the coupler mounted with some duct tape and it pulled the log car through the 031 curve with no problem, so it's a matter of either having an adapter made as I don't have that type of ability to machine, or Lionel getting off their butts and making the bracket as they should do. It is a little irritating that this fix is so simple if Lionel would just make the 031 adapter that K-Line used, they own the molds, make the dang bracket. Since it goes back to Lionel in the morning because the smoke fan stopped working, any further tries to remedy the coupler problem will have to wait upon it's return. This is the bracket I am looking for.

Jim I called both guys you gave me and no luck on them having the adapter. If anyone has the adapter and will consider sending it to me to at least take photographs and take exact measurements so I can see what it would take to get made, I will return it

Well, we tried. If I think of someone else, I will let you know.

Happy Thanksgiving,

Jimmy

Maybe someone on the forum will do that for you and then forward the info.

    Alan I think this response is that of an editor that doesn't want to irritate an advertiser.

   Every MTH engine I have that is rated at 031 curves (over 25 engines) runs fine on the mountain loop and will pull as many cars as I can hook up and has. My Williams FA-1 AA units that I upgraded to PS-2 is running on it right now pulling 29 coal hoppers. The Lionel Shay is the only one that won't and as it  clearly states in the Owners Manual that it's rated for 031. While I agree that it's not the Service Department's responsibility to fix the fact that Lionel didn't include the bracket needed for 031 operation, someone at Lionel should be and they aren't.

    So my common sense tells me that since everything else I own runs at it rated curve rating so then should this.

Lionels service department explained that this was an error in the product description,that really the locomotive requires o-36. Let me know when you receive your adapter. I'm still waiting on the installation of whistle steam on my legacy berk. My problem is even larger considering there was never even a whistle detail part on the original k line version.

Jim,

   I tried mounting the truck on this 1/2 inch towards the end of the beam. besides looking strange with the coupler extending out the extra length it didn't correct the derailing problem. The Shay still pulled it off the track every time just as the car is reaching the start of the curve.The coupler on the engine has to be moved back 1/2 inch so the angle is greater then present.