Shelf life for trains?

Ditto! Time to shift to a newer scale - 

Or get out of the technology world and go back to old school. ( yes i have some newer engines also but a majority of my trains are lionel Prewar and Postwar. ) I use old school for switches also. I use like 153C and non-Derail features to change position of a switch. I do have some I need the controller on ( or should say did When I had a layout ) but I find it more rewarding knowing I didn't have to use modern electronics knowing all the complaints I hear of this or that going bad. Right now if My TMCC/Legacy engines that I do have would die I would look for a electronic E-unit ( since ERR is not going to be anymore ) like what Lionel hs for some conventional engines or williams offer for their engines.  It's about our only choices now since Lionel decided the technology isn't there anymore, Hopefully they will offer something else in the near future. 

This is why I run postwar and MPC in conventional. What I may lack in detail, I make up for in dependability. 

What Bill and Art said.  

I've got a couple TMCC engines from the mid/late 1990s and a MTH engine from the same era with a QSI reverse unit. All of them work flawlessly. Then again I'm not packing them in boxes and driving them around. They stay on my layout.

Electric Railroad is no longer  around???

Richard 

Richard Gonzales posted:

Electric Railroad is no longer  around???

The death of the TMCC upgrade

All of my train products have been purchased since 1991, all out of the box, all work, no issues here. The few failures I've had were upon initial check in and under covered under warranty , just like an automobile.

shawn posted:

Ditto! Time to shift to a newer scale - 

Or another method of propulsion:

Regards

Fred

sncf231e posted:

shawn posted:

Ditto! Time to shift to a newer scale - 

Or another method of propulsion:

Regards

Fred

Isn't that the layout in the current issue of OGR? I really like your setup, especially the metal "tray" base. Simple design and built to last. Very nice.

....And the 2-rail crowd just keeps happily rolling along with the reliable, affordable, standard of DCC....with a growing plethora of sound files easily downloadable.

O2R.  HO.  N.  S.  G .  On30. On3. HOn3. .....etc., etc., etc.

Perhaps we O3R mavens have morphed into something 'masochistic' in our allegiance and adherence regarding this control system(s) miasma?

I'm starting to smile a tad at having retained most of my HO acquisitions....now sleeping peacefully beneath the O3R layout.  And, running the O3R only conventionally seems to have kept my psyche on a reasonably even septuagenarian level.

Which may be why the angel on my shoulder had me recently spring for Broadway Limited's GORGEOUS HO models of Santa Fe's iconic E-1 AB and Baltimore  Ohio's equally jaw-dropping EA AB.  I gave up believing that 3rd Rail....or anyone else...would so affordably honor these icons in O3R.  

Peace, man!

KD

I am a mechanical e-unit kind of guy. That written, I have to wonder if there is an environmental problem where you are storing your trains.

Even electromechanical trains can suffer from being stored under the wrong conditions, but they typucally can be repaired with a good cleaning.

Unfortunately, packing all kinds of modern electronics into our beloved toy trains forces them into becoming consumer electronics devices, for better or worse. How long do you expect your laptop or smart phone to last?

50% failure rate is unbelievably high.  I’m with CW, sounds like an environmental storage issue.  Dampness is bad.  It promotes corrosion, mold, absorbsion and many other failure mechanisms.  Batteries are the limited life item that immediately come to mind.

SouthernMike posted:

sncf231e posted:

shawn posted:

Ditto! Time to shift to a newer scale - 

Or another method of propulsion:

 

Regards

Fred

Isn't that the layout in the current issue of OGR? I really like your setup, especially the metal "tray" base. Simple design and built to last. Very nice.

Thank you; my layout is indeed in the current OGR Issue.

Regards

Fred 

shawn posted:

Ditto! Time to shift to a newer scale - 

And what do you do with all your 3 rail trains. especially the ones not working.  

I say find another way to fix and use. They may not be command but you still can run them. 

Long live PW/MPC/PULLMOR........

dkdkrd posted:

....And the 2-rail crowd just keeps happily rolling along with the reliable, affordable, standard of DCC....with a growing plethora of sound files easily downloadable.

Or in many cases still just simple DC!

Perhaps we O3R mavens have morphed into something 'masochistic' in our allegiance and adherence regarding this control system(s) miasma?

rtraincollector posted:

shawn posted:

Ditto! Time to shift to a newer scale - 

And what do you do with all your 3 rail trains. especially the ones not working.   

....well, skeet shooting comes to mind!

About 25 years ago....corporate employed, pre-retirement...I had occasion to participate in some sort of management 'bonding' thingee/event.  Looking back at the experience as well as the corporation's ultimate demise, it was more a puzzlement/waste than anything akin to the intended purpose.  We all were challenged to experience...competitively...some sports that we'd never tried.  In this case, skeet shooting. 

We each had 5 shots.

Never having tried the sport, but having the chance to observe several associates attempts prior to my own, I 'stepped up to the plate'.   PULL!........BLAM!   x5.  

Well, sir, I pulverized 4 out of 5 of those clay discs......best perf of my group.  First time, last time.  

Felt great!   

Since then, any time I find a pile of useless items, and the wife sez 'What should we do with these?", I smile and reflect on that pottery-pigeon performance.

So, about those O3R trains....      

Hey!  It just might be the ticket to a satisfying day!

Meanwhile, anyone for getting together down at the corner pub for some commiseration therapy?

KD

Much of my equipment is much older than I am, some older than my parents. A little TLC and they run just as new. Parts are generally available. Oldest one on the shelf is over 100 years old now. The only true manufacturing defect I have is some zinc pest on my 752 set. So generally speaking, I have not run into a shelf life issue. If I hapend across a brand new in box never opened never ran set 100+ years old, I would lube it per manufacturer instructions and put it on the track and it would certainly zip around.

I can see the secondary market for Pre and Post War prices increasing as folks may start pulling back from p[purchasing modern electronic controlled trains, thus creating a demand for older items.
Who know, Lionel might consider coming out with a series of conventional controlled AC powered train line. Not junk/entree level trains but doing quality product that would appeal to the Pre and Post War enthusiast. 

Tracker John posted:

My activity in the hobby centers around modular layouts that my club and I build and operate in November and December of each year.  Most of my locomotives are unpacked, lubed, and operated during those two months. 

oil every year?

way too much oil!!

Seems to me that if your electronics fail you can always replace them with an electronic e-unit and run them conventional.  I don't know all of the sources for Dallee for sure is on that offers electronic e-units.

bigdodgetrain posted:

Tracker John posted:

My activity in the hobby centers around modular layouts that my club and I build and operate in November and December of each year.  Most of my locomotives are unpacked, lubed, and operated during those two months. 

oil every year?

way too much oil!!

Not according to some manufacturer instructions - best to follow manufacturer recommendations (examples included)

Gentlemen,

Shelf Life?  Maybe we take better care of our family Trains than most people do, I have no real shelf Queens.  We have the 263E from the early 1900's and others like the 259E that still operate perfectly.  We have original Williams stuff that runs incredibly well, especially the GG1 and the E44, stump pullers even today both over 40 years old.  We have original MTH P2 engines like the 263E that is now around 20 years old, you see it on the tracks in my pictures.  The only Engines that need repaired are an early 2-8-0 P2 that failed just recently and a 249ERR that Guns upgraded and that UPS keeps rough handling in delivery.   We also have an original Williams City of San Fan Train that one of the movers dropped on the stairs as we moved, I think a wire has been busted inside one of the dual engines, it will need repaired also.  

Maybe I am just lucky, no kind of 5 year self life here.

PCRR/Dave

The original MTH P2 263E Engine and Tender, now over 20 years old I believe, most of the rolling stock it is pulling is a lot older than that.

The MTH P2 263E Work Train, over 20 years old, runs great.

Inside track - the original 263E Lionel, outside Track - MTH P2 263E both pulling original heavy 810 Crane Cars, the P2 with a 18 Car Work Train Consist.

I have had very good luck running digital control trains,I believe my oldest Porto Sounds 2 engine the Santa Fe 2-10-4 is still running like the day I got it, my oldest Lionel 2-8-0 Consolidation Runs away,need to fix that one but the  rest run fine which are about 45 engines.

Mikey

Lou1985 posted:

I've got a couple TMCC engines from the mid/late 1990s and a MTH engine from the same era with a QSI reverse unit.

My two mid 1990s MTH PS1 engines -- which are only used around the holidays and spend the rest of the year in their original MTH boxes up in my non-climate controlled attic -- are still going strong.   My read: if you keep items with circuitry dry and dust free and don't bash them around while they are being put into/taken out of storage, they will hold up to spending most of their life "on the shelf".  If varying temperatures and humidity levels were the issue, the electronics in your car wouldn't last a more than a year. 

Frankly, the only issue that could possibly come up with the electronics in my O gauge engines is if the electrolytic capacitors on their boards start to go bad.  Those components have a life span, which is primarily impacted by the level of temperature, voltage and current the capacitor is exposed to/handling.  Given most of those in toy trains (outside very pricey ones ones with multiple large motors) are on the lower end, I'm not losing sleep over cap failure.  

Let’s not overlook the fact that this member has 50% failed units.  Something causing that.  Cars, planes, etc electronics are specially designed and tested to withstand their service Environment.  Conformal coat is just the first line of defense against humidity.

I've taken the easy way out.  I enjoy collecting the Williams Golden Memories F3s and the Williams F7s with Ott Sound systems. No problems running those units.  Yes, I still have a bunch of MTH PS1 and PS2 units but so far they have been behaving themselves. Of course I run conventional only with my MTH Z4000.  As my friend Marty Fitzhenry laments: "You can't teach an old dog (Lew Schneider) new tricks".

Lew Schneider

Shorling,

Exactly the point I was trying to make, the problem is not shelf life. It's either an outside electrical force, giving him some kind power surge of some kind, or he is using his trains incorrectly.

If he is purchasing his trains used, that is a completely different kind problem.

PCRR/Dave

    If varying temperatures and humidity levels were the issue, the electronics in your car wouldn't last a more than a year. 

I don't think car electronics can be compared to toy train electronics.

Car electronics are designed and packaged to withstand weather. Toy train electronics are not, heck, the manufacturers don't even put TVS in there.

On storage, it is what it is, a non-climate controlled loft above my garage.  Sub-zero to hot.  The zinc rot was first found in K-Line and Weaver die cast trucks (relatively easily substituted).  The engine zinc rot was on drivers of a RailKing loco (others on this forum have experienced rot on the same model).  I haven't located replacement drivers and I have heard that the drivers are not meant to be pressed on and off.  I can probably find the same loco on the bay for the cost of replacement driver parts, but that is good money after bad.  Into the trash.  I haven't unpacked additional locos from the same era but I won't be surprised to find the same problem.

On oiling, I run a Peerless steam tractor in the summer and the rule is, if it squeaks, oil it.  Same thing in locos and cars.   I grind hyperdermic needles square and can get a minimal drop where it is needed.  What needs a tiny drop every year are pickup rollers and the wheels that squeak to let you know they want attention.

On electronics, I purchased a lot of Proto-1 when it first came out and many of these early QSI boards suffered from the death rattle issue and repeated attempts to do a chip reset have been inconsistent.  I bought a couple of early Proto-2 locos, one went back to MTH for repair but their QC was non-existent back then.  That engine loves to send me Check Track status.  Of all of these, the only ones that may get a Proto-3 conversion is the Proto-2 loco in the hope that a board refresh will correct its ills.  The rest of them will probably get a bridge rectifier and some dropping diodes so they can run conventional in one direction (w/o sound).  Some of our shows have a loop dedicated to conventional locos dragging a long freight for hours so I'll put a lashup together for that.

I keep grudges that form when a manufacturer ships a thousand dollar+ locomotive with manufacturing defects and can't seem to repair it successfully.  I stopped buying Lionel in the '90s for that reason.  I stopped buying MTH after my frustrating experience with early Proto-2 locos coupled with the polymorphic DCS signal failures my club was experiencing.  (For several years, it seemed that the only engines running in the first hour of a show were conventional and TMCC as many of the DCS engines seemed to need reprogramming on the club's TIUs to run reliably on the show layout).

It was only when Lionel introduced Legacy with a Daylight loco I wanted that I bought a new engine from them.  I was immediately hooked on the sounds (esp. the quilling whistle) and excellent low speed operation.  (And it could smoke!)  The visceral experience running that engine was far better than running my Proto-2 locos (when they were behaving themselves). 

Since Lionel also publishes their protocols, I have applied my day job experience with embedded systems to write software that monitors the TMCC protocols, and soon, will control the Legacy locos.  I am a happy camper with Legacy.  MTH has a closed system and offers no means of a 3rd party interface.

But the Joy of owning and operating these electronically controlled locos is short-lived when they are unrepairable.  I used to run a repair clinic at our train shows where I could resuscitate pre-war and post-war locos with cleaning, oiling, and (far too often) an E-unit rebuild.  Had a parts guy with me so we performed magic on site.  But when we found a bad electronic controller (don't stock those), the repair was halted and we told the owner where to call for parts and showed him how to install the board. 

I suspect that my older Legacy locos will eventually fail and repair is not feasible or economical.  I am now resigned to the fact that our hobby's future is disposable products with an unknown shelf life far less than we have with our classic conventional locos.  I will prune my roster to a minimum, run the wheels off the locos I keep, and buy a new engine only when an existing one fails.  Both Lionel and MTH have stated that they want us to buy the latest models instead of supporting the older stuff, and the rapid obsolescence of electronic components used in their boards is probably a big factor in their strategy.  That being so, don't expect me to build a huge roster of you engines anymore.

WRT to skeet practice with dead trains, there is a certain satisfaction with blowing away a frustrating problem item.  I was reading through my dad's WWII Action Reports (he was the skipper of a Destroyer) and while doing shore bombardment in Lingayen Gulf, they spotted a train moving and blew it up.  Perhaps a reenactment is in order.

Two-railers have problems like that.  If you let a model sit for a decade or more, the lubrication can become stiff or hard.  In one case, an axle had corroded itself inside a brass bearing, and it took an arbor press to free it up.

Older motors are like that - if you have an open frame motor, be sure to check that it rotates by hand before applying power.

I have found that good old SAE-30 will not congeal or freeze up like some of the model oils we use, and LaBelle Teflon seems to be bulletproof for gears.

As for the electronics - that is how I plan to get a die cast Bipolar - dead electronics, and for cheap.

shorling posted:

Cars, planes, etc electronics are specially designed and tested to withstand their service Environment. 

I can't speak to planes, but my repair experience on car audio and security circuits  has taught  that me that no, they are generally not built to the "mil spec" standards you are implying.   If i had a nickel for every fired OEM power amplifier  or scrambled door lock control hub unit I've replaced, I could have retired by now. 

But what I have never had to repair are the electronics in my MTH, K Line and Lionel  engines. which are stored in their original boxes in a non climate controlled attic eleven months out of the the year.  Which means that they are protected against dust and that summer heat, winter cold and the humidity which accompanies  the seasons has had no impact on those electronics.

Bottom line: keep things sealed and dry and everything else will fall into place.  

I was involved with a DOD test along time ago where we monitored failure rates of identical electronic equipment in service against in warehouse for identical periods of time for similar environments so shop hardware to warehouse not combat or at sea to warehouse. The end result was that the failure rates of the latter when put into service were essentially identical to those units that were in service. Our studies at a micro level established that corrosion between dissimilar materials in electronic components progresses at a rate that isn't in a statistical sense connected to utilization against storage.

Obsoleting technology is another area we studied finding replacement components for aging equipment once the technology passed them by becomes increasingly difficult with time as fresh stock is no longer made and even the NOS parts in storage become subject to decay rendering the part unusable or untrustworthy as a spare. It becomes less expensive to just put it in the trash and purchase the capability in a new technology part than to keep all this aging stuff in inventory.

This is the frustration of the current age it will probably only get worse as the rate of new introductions increases in shorter time periods.

Bogie

 My brother had bought a dishwasher and after just a couple of years (just over 2) it wore out. The salesman trying to sell him a new one said "just how long do you think they will last?"

 I like Bogie's response!

BTW Tracker John, there is another control system for MTH. I have it on my computer. It's just not Lionel as you'd prefer.

Starting with the first release of DCS upgrade kits about 2004, I converted every one of my flywheel-equipped locos, MTH/Weaver/Williams, to DCS.  Every one is still running.  So I dispute the statement above that model train electronics are designed for 5 year max life.

I suspect dead batteries area cause of electronics issues.

I bought a Lionel scale Southern Mikado 6-18018 from a vendor in the Orange hall at this past York for $180. It was never run, nor was it ever unpacked since being produced in 1992. I was the first one to unpack and last night, we ran it at my club after I oiled up the axles. 

For a pullmor engine that was 26 years old, it ran excellently. Then again, I was using a cab-1 with a TPC 400 on that operating line. The TPC does make pullmor motors run smoother but regardless, this was an engine that was a quarter of century old and it ran excellently pulling 6 heavyweight passenger cars.

Just my 2 cents.