So what happened to Lionel’s nice hidden PS-1 un-couplers?

Whole-heartedly agree SIRT!!!!!!! BTW, it looks like the new 65' (?) gondolas are going back to 1970 with ugly disc couplers as well........

Interesting. I have complained many times about my dislike of the typical Hi-rail coupler that has appeared in the last several years: shank too long, non-repairable (in any real sense), non-adjustable, interfering "brake hose", hard to reach tab that has an unfortunate movement arc (it should push down) - the only thing good about them was the Lack of the Tack.

Now, if my above objections are eliminated (fat chance), I will welcome the Tack back - it will be an acceptable trade-off.

What annoys me is that all the good stuff above pertaining to the old-style armature-type Hi-rail coupler could still be had if the Tack were re-positioned/offset a bit under the truck to mostly or completely hide it. I think K-line's (who else?) last coupler was something like this. (K-line - I still miss them.)

Probably the new ones will be mostly as awkward to use and repair, while losing their one good attribute - no Tack.

I would love to be wrong. 

In my opinion, they should use 480-1 trucks.

hmm interesting ... Maybe? 

I did not notice that. Thanks for pointing the couplers out as that is one really bad change if it happens. Ugh! What in the world are they thinking???!

Well could be the fall back since the TPP has been tossed up in the air with China... makes perfect sense. 

Have to agree wholeheartedly. They look terrible. A pity since heretofore Lionel freight cars, IMHO, were the best looking ones around!

Hal

I cut all that off anyway for Kadees....but I really hope Lionel is NOT going back to the thumbtacks.... what the **** is going on over there?

"What are you people, on dope?" Mr. Han

This decision by Lionel was explained in detail (agree with it or not!!) last September by a former Lionel employee, and fellow Forum member, right here.

Grampstrains posted:

What has happen is, Scale operators who want realistic couplers.  Lionel is catering to that group. (a group I'm not a part of)  The "thumbtack" type coupler can be removed easier to use the Kadee couplers.  So they win, I lose.

That's strange because I, like most Kadee users I'd think, just rip off the tabs or cut off the whole coupler carrier anyway. 

But, I'm with you... if it's going to be a 3-rail coupler, I want hidden tabs not tacks. 

Thanks,

Mario

Thanks for the link Joey.

Catering to a declining 2r market is already causing them to loose sales. Basically, I think the die-cast Weaver truck supplier is gone now and L couldn’t support or continue the Weaver line up so they had to come up with a new plan. A lot of sales could be made with Weaver half-moon tab trucks to retrofit the plastic truck series. No overseas supplier seems to provide them anymore.

The MTH newer series have the hidden un-couplers along with air hoses for those who like aesthetics. MTH has advanced in providing several new subtle detail changes which have gone un-noticed by most. MTH cars have been re-engineered and are much quicker to take apart, shortening the production process by using less screws.

 I’ll continue to stick with MTH plus the prices are lower than L’s.

 Examples of the latest 3 car versions from MTH. PS-1 50’, DD and Waffle.

I don't think they are catering to the two rail crowd, I think they want the 3 rail scale people because that seems to be a growing segment. MTH asked this question at one of the DCS seminars. How many people buy the 2 rail version of there product? then he asked how many are 2 railers.  I think out of that group it was three people where 2 railers. I personally don't buy anything that I can't lower ride height on, or install Kadee's on. Looks like to me they are just improving on the Weaver truck/coupler.

I don't like the button either, but I dislike the oversize claw even more.

Just my opion 

Clem

Grampstrains posted:

What has happen is, Scale operators who want realistic couplers.  Lionel is catering to that group. (a group I'm not a part of)  The "thumbtack" type coupler can be removed easier to use the Kadee couplers.  So they win, I lose.

Highly unlikely, and not a logical statement. The "Scale operators", especially the 2-Rail SCALE modelers, simply remove and discard the the 3-Rail truck & claw assembly, and replace them with 2-Rail SCALE trucks of their choice. Body mounted 2-Rail couplers are also installed, thus by simply providing "SCALE coupler mounting pads" on the underframe, both Lionel and MTH are then "catering" to the Scale operators & modelers.

As a 3-Rail SCALE modeler, I really don't care one bit how the big claw coupler is mounted to the 3-Rail truck assembly. I have more that enough tools to remove the coupler from the truck frame. That said, for those folks (the majority, in my opinion) that do use the big couplers, it would certainly seem logical to me, that Lionel offer a much nicer looking coupler than the ones picture by the original poster, especially at the pretty high prices that they list for their rolling stock.

Laidoffsick posted:

 what the **** is going on over there?

Its probably more " cost cutting" in order to fatten the bottom line.

Not unlike the "no legacy" legacy speed control that found its way into a few models to unsusupecting customers.

Or the "all new Reading ($1400+) T1" with the boiler and cab mounted to the MR S3 chassis and trucks.

 No question the thumbtack couplers are garbage, especially for those of us that run thr lobster claws.

Going back to the thumb tacks sure seems like a giant step backwards to me, considering the majority of people stick with 3R couplers. It was an "advancement" when they went to the hidden tab style. Improved truck design? For who? Definitely NOT the 3 railers. 

Are these on all Lionel rolling stock or just the Lionscale ?

Not directly related to the ugly TACs, but pertaining nonetheless to the trucks:

Not all trucks that have real springs are sprung, so  you may be disappointed when you get a car with trucks that have non-operational springs, and are there just for looks.

Alex

 Alex

All true O trucks have been die-cast with springs. Weaver LD series, Lionel DD, X & PS series, Atlas O and all MTH Premiers.

Unless you are specifically saying that new Lionel is going backwards on another truck feature, the statement above is incorrect.

SIRT posted:

Thanks for the link Joey.

Catering to a declining 2r market is already causing them to loose sales. ......

The 2r market is declining? I wonder why.

I would have thought the opposite, especially with how DCC continues to evolve.

SIRT posted:

So what happened to Lionel’s nice hidden PS-1 un-couplers?

Are we going to get those ugly disc couplers on the 2017 offerings? Going backwards I would assume?

I hope the 2017 catalog is a mistake showing these silly discs again that no one uses while paying a premium price?

The catalogue is not a mistake. But the decision to migrate to inferior trucks and thumb tack couplers sure was. Lionel need to bring back their industry leading die-cast sprung trucks with hidden uncoupling tabs and scrap these inferior trucks and couplers.

Laidoffsick is the only one that makes any sense. He cuts the claw off anyway. As I said before Lionel could have easily kept the hidden tab coupler and just offered the KD pocket on the cars. Everyone wins.

I am not a fan of the Tab/Button coupler, but I remember reading that Lionel designed these button couplers on trucks for the LionScale cars, and they are going to be used on future rolling stock. 

I am happy with my many Atlas O scale cars that do not say "Made by Lionel".   Atlas has done some truck modifications recently that hide the coupler trip mechanism.  I will but Lionel engines and Atlas O rolling stock whenever possible.

Irony is a company that hid the tether between their engines and tenders, but brought the BIG button coupler back to their cars.

It’s not just the thumbtack. The new trucks are not actually sprung and the bolsters are plastic. I sold off all my traditional rolling stock and went 100% scale in 2012. Since then, I have bought 150+ Lionel scale freight cars -  many new, some NOS, and some used - I think they’re great, particularly the detailed PS-1s (not Lion Scale). The cynic in me posits the “easy Kadee conversion” story is convenient cover for cheapening the trucks. I will not buy anymore scale cars with the new truck design. 

I noted in looking through the 2018 catalog that the nice, hidden-tab couplers only cost 1$ more per pair than the ugly, button couplers.  So, cost savings don't seem to have been a factor.

Hal

Not to argue, but the price in the catalog is not dispositive of the cost of the truck. The next time you are at your dealer, look at the new design and compare it to the nice trucks that have been previously used.  Irrespective of what Lionel is selling them for, there is a significant difference. 

Some facts seem to have been lost in this discussion that had been covered before in previous threads.

The new trucks are EASILY converted to Kadees. No "cutting away" required. They even come with the plastic spacers and self-tapping screws to put the Kadees at the right height. 

I understand that people who do not use Kadees positively hate these new trucks.

But, for those of us who do, they are a leap forward. One thought occasionally expressed is that putting Kadees on a piece could lower its resale value as claw users are not going to buy it. Well, the new design also allows one to easily revert back to claws. All that is needed is a screwdriver to put the claw back on.

Those who have no interest in Kadees simply because putting them on is a hassle can now try them EASILY and without fear of doing anything irreversible as the process is now readily reversed. All done with a screwdriver alone! No need for a Dremel. No need for a hacksaw or gorilla pliers to cut the claws off. No drilling or tapping. You don't even need a height gauge. 

And remember that Kadees will mix pretty well with claws as long as the newer ones with the concealed springs are not used. 

Those who just will not try Kadees for whatever reason, will not be won over. But if you have hesitated because Kadees seemed like a lot of trouble, the new trucks make it ridiculously easy! 

While it is true that the springs are now decorative only, only the bolsters are plastic. At least the 21 PS-1 cars I bought have metal side frames. I am mystified at the "they're made of plastic" assertion? And, truth be told, the bolsters seem pretty robust. I had to do some serious scratching to confirm they are plastic. And, c'mon now, those "functional springs" never really did serve any real function!

Oh, and the rolling resistance of these new trucks is phenomenally low! 

I was just admiring how nic the trucks are on my PS4 flat cars with the hidden tab, sprung side frames, metal bolster and articulated coupler mount. The new trucks are junk and not complimentary to a $100 freight car

Actually, what is not complimentary to a scale car are lobster claw couplers! 

Actually, I’d say the gap between the cars is much less complimentary than the robster craw

On part of my layout my track plan would not fit uncoupling tracks so when switching cars the thumbtack is very usefull. With the hidden ones they are a pain to uncouple. So I dont mine thumbtack uncouplers. The new truck design with one screw to remove the claw is a lot better then cutting off the claw on the old design.

What I would like is a replacement coupler arm with a kd pocket on the end. This way with one screw the new lobster claw could be taken off and the new arm with a kd could be attached so as to have essentially a truck mounted kd coupler. Like they have in nscale. This way those of us with small layouts with small radius curves can have kd couplers. Just make a  coupler arm with a kd pad and let use mount a kd to it. Are you listening dave olsen.

Weather or not you use/like/worship Kadees or traditional knuckles, this should be concerning because Lionel degraded an aspect of their product in the minds of a significant* portion of their user base. The choice is not a necessary compromise, but one forced artificially by the manufacturer as this and many other threads have suggested many other designs that would accommodate both with much better accepted aesthetics.

*I purposely used significant because saying saying some, most, all, more or other similar quantifiers derail discussion from the point as it turns things into a us vs them.

Rider Sandman posted:

It’s not just the thumbtack. The new trucks are not actually sprung and the bolsters are plastic. I sold off all my traditional rolling stock and went 100% scale in 2012. Since then, I have bought 150+ Lionel scale freight cars -  many new, some NOS, and some used - I think they’re great, particularly the detailed PS-1s (not Lion Scale). The cynic in me posits the “easy Kadee conversion” story is convenient cover for cheapening the trucks. I will not buy anymore scale cars with the new truck design. 

Well said. As I promised on this or one of the other threads regarding this topic, on December 31, 2017, I wrote a fairly lengthy letter to Lionel President Howard Hitchcock questioning the decision to move from Lionel's industry leading die-cast sprung trucks and couplers with hidden uncoupling tabs for their scale cars and replacing them with inferior trucks and thumb tack couplers and submitted it through the Lionel website portal. I followed up recently, but to date I have received no reply, not even an acknowledgement of my letter.

Without going into detail here, I think I presented a compelling case, and also included quotes from many Forum members, without attribution, who have commented on this subject. It is very disappointing that I have received no response, and certainly does not demonstrate good customer service. That said, I want to give Lionel a little more time to reply before posting my letter here. More to come.

Matt Makens posted:

I was just admiring how nic the trucks are on my PS4 flat cars with the hidden tab, sprung side frames, metal bolster and articulated coupler mount. The new trucks are junk and not complimentary to a $100 freight car

Couldn't agree more.

So all the folks here who previously professed admiration for Mike Regan now think he is full of it?  I thought he provided a thoughtful explanation in the link above.  If I am Lionel management, the only thing I can conclude from this discussion is that there is a certain clientele that I cannot satisfy and I move on.

Honestly it was just a bad move. What should have happen is continue delivering the same trucks and couplers, but tool in a pocket to install the Kadees. The trucks could have been re designed to have a better way of removing the lobster claw if need be.

The dumb tacks are just a bad direction...

Old news, lets move on.

So all the folks here who previously professed admiration for Mike Regan now think he is full of it?  I thought he provided a thoughtful explanation in the link above.  If I am Lionel management, the only thing I can conclude from this discussion is that there is a certain clientele that I cannot satisfy and I move on.

Yes, an explanation was provided. That does not mean that Lionel's customer base has to accept the new product. It's Lionel's job to satisfy their customers, not the other way around.
So Mike Regan did it? ...... I guess everybody and anybody can make a bad decision once in a while.  People can still admire the rest of this work

Ray Lombardo posted:

So all the folks here who previously professed admiration for Mike Regan now think he is full of it?  I thought he provided a thoughtful explanation in the link above.  If I am Lionel management, the only thing I can conclude from this discussion is that there is a certain clientele that I cannot satisfy and I move on.

Ray - This has nothing to do with Mike Reagan. Everyone would agree that Mike is a great guy. This has to do with a really bad decision by Lionel. The corporation owns the decision. No individual employee or former employee does. You don't take a significant step backwards in the quality of the design of something as important as your trucks and couplers on your scale freight and passenger cars which is unsatisfactory to significant numbers of your loyal customer base and "just move on."  Companies that follow such a philosophy see their sales plummet and some go out of business. None of us wants to see that happen to Lionel.