Lionel Going Backward with Couplers?

That's a good catch! Hopefully, it's just one of those situations where the actual product will differ from the catalogue.  Would be nice for a catalogue goof to be in the consumer's favor.

-Greg

I am more encouraged by the notation " Easily converted to scale couplers" in the PS-1 descriptions. I hope that means spacers will not be required when I inevitably install K-Ds on my new cars.

Ripping out the hidden tabs to put in kadees is a nightmare.  Going back to thumbtacks makes the conversion much easier. 

The thumbtacks returning is a sign that Lionel is moving forward as they are easily removed for conversion to scale couplers. There is no easy conversion with the hidden coupler tabs. Lionel is reconizing the growing 3RS population and also opeaning up there products to 2 railers as well. I think it's a great move! 

Plus, the tack is below a giant claw coupler. So it doesn't exactly detract from a realistic look.

Terry they will still require spacers, supplied or not. With 3 rail flanges, the bodies sit far too high to mount Kadees without a spacer. Several people make pre-cut spacers now and Mario has some specifically for the PS-1 box cars.

Hidden tabs or thumb tacks, 2 cuts using the Dremel and the claws are gone ... in less than a minute. 

So Lionel is penalizing the 3 rail majority to satisfy the 3 rail scale subgroup???

"Plus, the tack is below a giant claw coupler. So it doesn't exactly detract from a realistic look."

Is this is the same "realistic look" that features the big rail down the middle?

===============

The "thumbtack coupler" in various iterations features more than 1 thing that make it preferable to the newer "tab" types:

They can be repaired and adjusted; they typically have a better-looking, shorter shank (notice how far apart your new rolling stock is getting - not visually appealing or prototypical) and, the tab for the "tack" is easy to reach with a finger or push down with a tool (easy to make).

The "tack" could have been mildly re-engineered to tuck more under the truck, all the while retaining the adjustable and repairable/replaceable knuckle pin armature.

Don't get me started on the "tab coupler" air hoses - I have a box of them, removed from newer cars so that the wee tab could actually be found. "Couplers - keep 'em tacky!"

Is it me or do the hidden tab couplers  need a lot  more force to close vrs. The tab couplers as well.  Slamming cars together when our engines can creep at 1 scale mile an hour is just not right. Plus as mentioned the ease of the manual uncouple or hand of god if you will.

Boilermaker1 posted:

Ripping out the hidden tabs to put in kadees is a nightmare.  Going back to thumbtacks makes the conversion much easier. 

As Spock says "The needs of the few outweigh the needs of the many"  

Nothin' better than sitting in a chair and watchin' all those humongous thumbtacks roll by!

 

Nothin' better than sitting in a chair and watchin' all those humongous thumbtacks roll by!

I know! Completely messes up the look of the small scale couplers they're attached to!

BobbyD posted:

Boilermaker1 posted:

Ripping out the hidden tabs to put in kadees is a nightmare.  Going back to thumbtacks makes the conversion much easier. 

As Spock says "The needs of the few outweigh the needs of the many"  

Nothin' better than sitting in a chair and watchin' all those humongous thumbtacks roll by!

How do the many not benefit? The hidden tabs are basically non serviceable, if they open, your only real choice is to glue it shut. If the thumbtacks open, its an easily reversable fix with a dental rubber band. 

Not to mention, if you dont like the thumbtack, you can simply cut it off.

Gentlemen,

Please let me take a moment and explain the change on these couplers, so everyone has the correct information from the "horse's mouth" as it were. 

We have engineered a new scale truck which will be integrated on all Lionel scale cars moving forward. 

This whole project of reengineering the trucks started with the acquisition of the Weaver tooling. Not being satisfied with the performance of the older Weaver die-cast trucks we needed a truck that would accommodate the new Lionscale cars as well as all existing Lionel scale cars. If you took the time to notice the thumbtack couplers in the images I certainly hope you took the time to notice the 2-rail conversion kits in the back of the catalog. These conversion kits are only applicable to the new scale trucks (the ones with the thumbtack in the images). 

This truck uses an ABS bolster and 1 piece cast side frames (with separately applied springs). The level of detail is as good if not better than the existing truck side frames. The reason for the bolster being ABS is two fold;

1.) to prevent to need for a collector insulator when using a sprung collector on freight trucks (similar to the type we currently use on locomotives, to ensure a positive 100% of the time contact with the center rail)

2.) to allow for easy conversion to using scale couplers on 3-rail equipment and for converting to 2-rail. Yes, you read that correctly, 2-rail. (Lionel has never before offered a 2-rail conversion kit, so this is somewhat notable in the big scheme of things!)

The new scale truck design has 5 different length die-cast coupler armatures (same as our previous scale trucks had) which slide over a shoulder on the center of the bolster and also have a screw to firmly mount the coupler armature to the bolster. This design makes it very easy to remove the 3-rail coupler from the truck to mount a scale coupler to the car body, for those customers who wish to take that route.

The bolster also accommodates all the various accessories we have used on trucks over the last 20 years; hall effect sensors, axle straps, collectors, LED PCB's (for hot box accessory cars). The coupler armartures accommodate mechanical couplers as well as coil couplers.  

There are a total of 4 bolsters to be used with these side frames

Lionel 3-rail cars
Lionel 2-rail conversion (comes with the 2-rail conversin kit)
Lionscale 3-rail cars
Lionscale 2-rail conversion (comes with the 2-rail conversion kit)

Why so many bolsters? Because on Lionel scale cars the bolster is very close to the floor on the cars. On the Lionscale cars the bolster is a good distance away from the floor, so a one size fits all approach would simply not work. Then add in the 2-rail conversion and the ride height of the car needed to be lower than the ride height of 3-rail cars, hence we designed 4 different bolsters. Each of the 2-rail conversion kits; 50T and 70T will include 2 Lionel and 2 Lionscale 2-rail bolsters, so 1 kit will work with either product. Each 2-rail conversion kit includes 4 NMRA compliant 2-rail wheel and axle sets, the bolsters mentioned above, 4 axle straps (with 8 screws, as they are small and you will likely lose some installing the straps). There are 2 different kits as one has tapered axles for 50T journal box style side frames and the other has blunt end axles for 70T rotating bearing cap side frames (to keep the rotating bearing cap feature) (the 70T kit also includes some extra bearing caps in black). The end result is an NMRA compliant 2-rail truck that offers electrical pickup from all 8 wheels! 

The design has been in the works for over 8 months and has been thoroughly tested on just about every 3-rail track system known to man as well as the 2-rail trucks (with electrical pickups). The design is solid and allows us to finally have a truly "standardized" scale truck system that uses interchangeable parts from a standard set of tools. 

Now, cars that have a large distance between the bolster and the end of the car will continue to use our kinematic coupler system, which has always had the thumbtack hanging down from just below the coupler head!

I hope this helps clear the air on the truth about what we're doing and why you are seeing changes from what has been done in the past.

Thank you,
Mike
P.S. I will try to post some pics later today so you can "see" the improvements and changes that have been made to these new trucks.

Thanks for the clarification and information Mike; glad I started this topic. Kudos to you for enlightening us.

The new scale truck design has 5 different length die-cast coupler armatures (same as our previous scale trucks had) which slide over a shoulder on the center of the bolster and also have a screw to firmly mount the coupler armature to the bolster.

Mike, that is really a creative and innovative project.  But with the interchangeable armatures, will you offer one that has a shorter length for we three railers, with 072 and wider curves, to shorten the width of the gap between cars?

The tacks work better and HOLD better. An easy fix if one doesn't. I have yet to see anyone standing trackside looking at what type of coupler is going by.

Mike, I do not have an iron in this fire, as I'm a traditional product operator who likes the tab couplers offered on those products.

That said, I think it was more than very gracious of you to take the time to compose your well detailed response. I have long thought, and your reply illustrates this, that Lionel has gone to great effort to attempt to please the enthusiasts of the newer Lionel scale products.

Many times when Lionel makes a change to a product, you can often read condescending comments such as "the geniuses at Lionel," etc. That this new truck, as you said, has been in the design process for 8 months being thoroughly tested, to me illustrates Lionel's commitment to the scale consumer, despite the grumbling of some.

I always liked the "Mister Ed" show when I was a kid. Sometimes Wilbur had to get set straight by Mister Ed. And if that inspires you for one of your funny product videos, I'll take that as a compliment.

Hey guys,

Here are some pics I promised earlier this week. Its been a busy week here at Lionel, just getting back to this thread. Sorry for the delay, hope you enjoy the pics and appreciate the energy we put into this design.

Mike

While I love it, how about an even bolder move by Lionel, MTH, or AtlasO?  Do away with the oversized lobster claw all together and scale cars come scale couplers.  You could offer the lobster claws as kits for the holdouts.

It's coming, it's only a matter of time.  The new generation of hobbyists wants scale, detail, and realism.

superwarp1 posted:

While I love it, how about an even bolder move by Lionel, MTH, or AtlasO?  Do away with the oversized lobster claw all together and scale cars come scale couplers.  You could offer the lobster claws as kits for the holdouts.

It's coming, it's only a matter of time.  The new generation of hobbyists wants scale, detail, and realism.

LOL!  I suspect the majority of the operators still use the "lobster claws".  There are over 75+ years worth of them out there.  If you want the scale couplers feel free to add them.  I don't have an issue with that but to expect the large majority of the hobby to change after years of the non scale coupler is unrealistic.

BobbyD posted:

Boilermaker1 posted:

Ripping out the hidden tabs to put in kadees is a nightmare.  Going back to thumbtacks makes the conversion much easier. 

As Spock says "The needs of the few outweigh the needs of the many"  

Nothin' better than sitting in a chair and watchin' all those humongous thumbtacks roll by!

I thought what Spock said was the reverse!

Thank you Lionel for the information and product development. I like the flat wheel tread.

Clem k

superwarp1 posted:

The new generation of hobbyists wants scale, detail, and realism.

As part of the new generation I can say actually no, I like the detail but still love the large "lobster claw" couplers on my scale cars.  But kudos to Lionel for making trucks that meet all the groups that buy their cars.

Yes, thanks for posting. That really clears things up. Good engineering work there too. Bet somebody was moping around the building for a while trying to figure out how the heck am I gonna meet all these requirements.

Thanks for the thorough explanation, Mike.

-Greg

I am perplexed. I post this in trepidation as it is bound to set off someone.

I had Lionel trains in 1952, a Christmas gift from my parents. Nothing new about that! It's how many of us started. Even most of us, perhaps? Even then, all I wanted was realism! I never liked anything that was especially "toylike" in my trains!

Lionel has, for several years now, been offering ever more realistic offerings, in addition to more traditional "toylike" items. The lobster claws on otherwise scale cars seems just nuts to me. I just "don't get it." I prefer scale wheels too but, again it is too late for me. I run a few scale wheel cars but, despite trying to make my few switches "scale wheel friendly," they derail too frequently.

But, inevitably it will be thrown out "what about the third rail?" Truth is, I hate the third rail! But getting past it means starting over. It's just too late for that. Were I starting over I suppose I'd be Proto-48 (isn't that the term?) I can't be alone in this.

I know some folk love tinplate. Just not my thing. I feel the same about those who seem to want the exact same thing as in the 1950s, perhaps when they were kids . . . tubular track, distinctly out-of-scale engines and rolling stock. That's fine too. Again, just not my thing. Even in 1952, it's not what I "wanted." It's what my parents were willing to buy me. Even way back then I cringed when I saw Lionel offering stuff that was obviously "toy-like," submarine carrying flat cars and the like. To me, even then, it "cheapened" the whole experience.

But why, oh why, do people want lobster claws on expensive, otherwise scale cars like the new Lionel PS-1s or the Atlas O Steam Era Classic series? Even more perplexing is their being supplied on 21" scale passenger cars from the likes of 3rd Rail. Yes, I put K-Ds on my 21" GGD passenger cars too. It was way harder than it should have been!

The very first thing I'll be doing when I receive my new PS-1 cars will be putting K-Ds on them. As much as I'd love to change to scale wheels as well , it would not be prudent that I do so.  Broke my heart that I had to put pizza cutters on a gorgeous Brother Love CN caboose that had scale wheels when I received it.

I love the fact that the new cars make it trivial to get rid of the lobster claw. Why it's standard on "scale cars," MSRP'd at $80 apiece, perplexes me. Lionel, after all has FOREVER had some incompatabilities between O and O-27 products. So, not sure why they can't have the claws for O-27 stuff and scale couplers for scale stuff?

Seems to me time Lionel might consider supplying scale cars with no couplers at all!  An additional kit of lobster claw or K-D being a choice at extra cost. As it is, I just throw the claws out in the trash.

Don't even get me started on hacking the claws off MTH Premier products! Talk about a pain!

No, I most definitely do NOT see Lionel as "going backward" here!

And MTH needs to sit up and take notice!

Terry Danks posted:

 

Seems to me time Lionel might consider supplying scale cars with no couplers at all!  An additional kit of lobster claw or K-D being a choice at extra cost. As it is, I just throw the claws out in the trash.

Don't even get me started on hacking the claws off MTH Premier products! Talk about a pain!

No, I most definitely do NOT see Lionel as "going backward" here!

And MTH needs to sit up and take notice!

Sorry to "drift this thread" but, MTH has been offering their Premier line of scale freight cars with Kadee mounting pads plus the appropriate shim in order to mount the Kadee coupler assembly. Not to mention the MTH scale wheel locomotives, in steam, diesel and electric. MTH has been doing these offerings for quite some years now, i.e. well prior to Lionel "coming to the table" on 3-Rail SCALE modeling.

Hot Water:

What have I missed? The "pads" are just holes for screws.  Shims? Never saw any in the boxes my new MTH cars came in. And getting the &^%$# claws off? A Dremel!

Terry Danks posted:

Hot Water:

What have I missed! The "pads" are just holes for screws.

And what's wrong with THAT? Those screw hols align perfectly for mounting the Kadee gearbox, using the supplied shim, using 1-72 screws.

  Shims? Never saw any in the boxes my new MTH cars came in

Then you must be throwing them out. If the cars have the Kadee pad, with the two holes, then a pair of shims, each in their own sealed plastic bag, were in the box.

. And getting the &^%$# claws off? A Dremel!

Maybe you are doing it wrong. I have NEVER used a Dremel. I simply break off the die cast mounting portions of the truck with large pliers/cutter.

Hot Water posted:

Terry Danks posted:

  Shims? Never saw any in the boxes my new MTH cars came in

 If the cars have the Kadee pad, with the two holes, then a pair of shims, each in their own sealed plastic bag, were in the box.

. And getting the &^%$# claws off? A Dremel!

Maybe you are doing it wrong. I have NEVER used a Dremel.

 

This is comical!

Then you must be throwing them out.

I don't think so!

I simply break off the die cast mounting portions of the truck with large pliers/cutter.

OK, you "break" them off, using "large" tools. I  use a Dremel.  Apparently, you're stronger than I!  I surrender!

OK, so here is the scenario:

You are the president of Lionel (or MTH if that makes you feel better) and your given the choice of moving forward keeping the couplers as is (tin-plate style) or completely changing to another coupler (Kadee in this case).

This is a business decision, not a “what you like” choice. In the balance is the health of the company, so you must choose wisely.

Are any of you really saying that you, as CEO of one of these companies, would really make the change to another coupler?

I didn’t think so.

Its model railroading guys, switching to another coupler spans from very easy to very hard. I have not experienced “very hard” yet so I would say most of the guys I see at the O scale shows would have the talent to make this switch without making a wholesale change to the existing tin-plate coupler.

It seems that Lionel is just making steps to accommodate all modelers (first time buyer, RTR and scale modeler) that is a better solution, business wise.

Charlie

Some of you guys need to go to 2 rail. I'm sure those guys would love to see their equipment running on a 042 curve with a 3rd rail.

Rod Miller

Sorry, Charlie, but I don't "get it."

Tinplate couplers on a tinplate car, I understand.

Tinplate couplers on a high $$$ "scale" car, escapes me totally.

What it comes down to, AFAIAC, is how many actual buyers of the scale Lionel stuff will find those lobster claws acceptable? I am not privy to such market research.

No desire on my part to get into a war with those who want Lionel couplers to remains as they ever were.

But, make no mistake! There are those of us who find those couplers simply unacceptable!  PERIOD!

And, I submit that it is the buyers of the higher-priced "scale" items that are most likely to find those couplers unacceptable. 

I repeat . . . give the customer his choice. Supply scale cars with NO couplers at all! And offer a "pak" for scale or "traditional" couplers  and we'll all be happy!

Terry Danks posted:

Sorry, Charlie, but I don't "get it."

Tinplate couplers on a tinplate car, I understand.

Tinplate couplers on a high $$$ "scale" car, escapes me totally.

What it comes down to, AFAIAC, is how many actual buyers of the scale Lionel stuff will find those lobster claws acceptable? I am not privy to such market research.

No desire on my part to get into a war with those who want Lionel couplers to remains as they ever were.

But, make no mistake! There are those of us who find those couplers simply unacceptable!  PERIOD!

And, I submit that it is the buyers of the higher-priced "scale" items that are most likely to find those couplers unacceptable. 

I repeat . . . give the customer his choice. Supply scale cars with NO couplers at all! And offer a "pak" for scale or "traditional" couplers  and we'll all be happy!

Lionel is moving forward with putting the new trucks on cars and offer the mounting pads on the cars for the Kadee couplers.

So all you have to do is take the claw off when you get the car (which looks VERY easy from the new truck design) and put on the Kadee coupler.

Why are we whining and yelling about it? Just toss the claw.

Calm down and go play with trains.

TrainingDave posted:

Calm down and go play with trains.

Thanks so much for the condescension. Most appreciated.

And just why do you think Lionel is "moving forward?"

Make no mistake. This is precisely how change takes place in the marketplace! Through "whining and yelling."  Your terms, not mine!

Putting "lobster claws" on scale rolling stock is just stupid! No other word is appropriate.

Terry Danks posted:

Putting "lobster claws" on scale rolling stock is just stupid! No other word is appropriate.

I guess I'm stupid, then.  All of my equipment, scale and non-scale, has the "lobster claws" and I have no intention of changing them, for various reasons.

I hope I can thank Lionel publicly here for making their cars available to 2 rail easily. I know this is not the forum. I just want to add balance to the discussion.

  I don't mind having to buy the KD couplers extra. I actually hope someday you could offer full 2 rail RTR models. I will take what I can get as it comes. I don't expect Lionel to abandon the "claws" overnight. Someday they may not be desired anymore. We will have to wait and see.

H O modelers have changed out couplers for years. Nothing new for them. Don't like the claw, change it out.

EscapeRocks posted:

Terry Danks posted:

Putting "lobster claws" on scale rolling stock is just stupid! No other word is appropriate.

I guess I'm stupid, then.  All of my equipment, scale and non-scale, has the "lobster claws" and I have no intention of changing them, for various reasons.

Mr. Danks just called me stupid too.  I love me "lobster claws" and am actually upset that my Legacy 2-8-0 didn't come with one for me to put on the front like all the other Legacy scale steamers I have from Lionel do.  That's the 1st thing I do, even before lubing and placing on the track, install the front "lobster claw."  Why do I love them?

1) Size!  They are big and I can see them.

2) They are easy to open by hand, mostly.  Sure there are some where the hose gets in the way, but almost all the time the car coupled to it doesn't have the hose, so I can uncouple that one.

3) They don't require some exact control and back and forth to open like K-D.  You just reach over and open, or if you use an uncoupling track you can just push a button as the train goes over it.

4) Electrocouplers!

But in the end, it's all how you want to play with your trains.  No one should be called a fool or stupid because they don't play with their toys the same way you do Mr. Danks.