So You Think You've Seen It All

I wouldn't be surprised. Their QC has been questionable.

Did you replaced the steel washer with a nylon or fiber one; or, were you able to press the flywheel on close enough to the board to solve the problem?

@Rapid Transit Holmes posted:

Did you replaced the steel washer with a nylon or fiber one; or, were you able to press the flywheel on close enough to the board to solve the problem?

There's no need.  The board just sits on the two motor connections, it spaces it fine.  Look at any Lionel installation, there is no spacer or washer under the board.  I've put dozens of these on, I just solder them to the terminals after leveling them with the motor, then I put the flywheel back on.

That is bizarre John. You wouldn't think that it should be there, nor put in place by someone else because it shouldn't be needed. Odd indeed.

GRJ....that was one heck,of a find! And hiddened by the flywheel yet. I thought tracking down a pinched wire was tough! You do man GRJ.

It did cost me a DCDS to find it, after looking it all over and checking for any shorts or grounds, I installed the new DCDS, and after about three laps the washer found the motor contact and blew that one!  The reason I started looking closer at the motor was the lead to the motor had melted insulation, big clue that something there was drawing a lot of current.  Also, both of the DCDS modules had the same FET literally melted down!

Could have been worse !

John

I remember that picture, it was real.

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

It did cost me a DCDS to find it, after looking it all over and checking for any shorts or grounds, I installed the new DCDS, and after about three laps the washer found the motor contact and blew that one!  The reason I started looking closer at the motor was the lead to the motor had melted insulation, big clue that something there was drawing a lot of current.  Also, both of the DCDS modules had the same FET literally melted down!

Out of curiosity, could adding TVS diodes before the DCDS prevent the board from blowing in a circumstance like this? I am not competent with electronics, wiring, etc, so I don't know if those would actually work..

@DennyM posted:

I wouldn't be surprised. Their QC has been questionable.

You seem certain that the washer was put there in the factory, and that this was therefore a Lionel QC problem.

Instead I think that I'll wait to give them a hard time until we see other examples of units fitted with the mystery washer.  So far @gunrunnerjohn's example seems to be the only one that we're aware of.

Mike

A month or so ago a local guy asked me to look at a JLC Big Boy he just picked up. The chuff sound was erratic, but the smoke unit puffed normally. This is the first legacy locomotive and uses a chuff switch that outputs to both the smoke unit and serial data to the motherboard. I opened it up and in the wire connector from the chuff switch to the motherboard was a sewing pin. Apparently the wire was loose in the connector on the motherboard so the previous owner jammed a sewing pin into the connector to tighten it up. Somehow it didn't short anything out. I replaced the connector on the end of the wire (you know, the proper repair) and all was well again.

M10000 Lionel.  Washer is present.  Mine is not touching..................yet

This was the one CCII engine I didn't pick up. Actually makes me feel good I didn't, even though it could be fixed fairly easily. Who would want this as a surprise though.

@Soo Line posted:

M10000 Lionel.  Washer is present.  Mine is not touching..................yet

Well, unless you want an expensive repair, I'd suggest you get that washer out of there!  I'm stunned it's in there stock, I would have never believed that!  I've replaced a bunch of the TMCC Odyssey I and Legacy Odyssey II sensor boards, and I never saw any spacers under the stock boards from Lionel, and I never put any spacer under them after the fact.

Obviously, whoever decided that was a good idea didn't consider that the PCB opening has a significant copper land around it that can touch the washer.  One little touch and it's curtains for the DCDS board, it not only blows the FET which could be replaced, but it nukes the logic as well!

I'm still aghast that this is stock from Lionel, I really haven't seen it all!

Good catch John and Thanks for posting.

I don't have a way to pull the flywheel and as you mentioned we cannot get new motors.   I measured and there is space between the washer and the motor contacts which seem to have a plastic sleeve of sorts around them.

I have used some epoxy from washer to metal of can motor in 2 opposite places.  This should prevent the washer from ever moving. 

@Soo Line posted:

Good catch John and Thanks for posting.

I don't have a way to pull the flywheel and as you mentioned we cannot get new motors.   I measured and there is space between the washer and the motor contacts which seem to have a plastic sleeve of sorts around them.

I have used some epoxy from washer to metal of can motor in 2 opposite places.  This should prevent the washer from ever moving.

The washer doesn't touch the motor contacts directly, it touches the copper solder pads around the mounting holes for the board.  One touch and it's all over.

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

Well, a new one was sprung on me, just when I was sure I'd seen it all!

I got a Lionel M10000 in with a blown DCDS.  OK, I fixed the wires that were melted, replaced the DCDS, and checked all the wiring for any shorts/opens.  Put it on the rollers and it ran great.  OK, stuck it on the track and fired it off for a test run.  I could see some significant sparking apparently coming from the front roller, so back apart it came.  The insulator that was under the pickup screw was melted and the screw was touching the truck frame.  OK, fixed that, and another round of measurements.  On the rollers it was drawing less than half an amp, running perfectly, all the wiring looked good, OK!  Time for another test run.  It ran for about three laps and stopped with light flickering and then the PH180 breaker tripped.  I could smell that unmistakable smell, RATS!

Sure enough, another DCDS was cooked, almost blew the FET right off the board!  WHAT THE HAY???

I had another melted wire, one going to the motor!  Everything measured fine, but as I was wiggling the motor and the sensor PCB, the meter chirped!  WHAT, I'm checking the motor to the frame???  I think we're on to something, that explains the issues.  Lionel says no motors available... bummer.  Time to take a closer look.

What's this?  I never saw that extra spacer between the board and the motor!

Time to yank the flywheel and pop the sensor board.  WOW, look at that, a big washer stuck between the motor and sensor board.  That sure doesn't seem stock!

Look a little closer and you can see where it was indeed moving over just enough to short to the motor terminal, thus shorting the motor leads to ground, the kiss of death for the DCDS board!

I really hope this wasn't actually how it was delivered from Lionel!

Shocking……LMAO

Good find, but wow.

@0-Gauge CJ posted:

Out of curiosity, could adding TVS diodes before the DCDS prevent the board from blowing in a circumstance like this? I am not competent with electronics, wiring, etc, so I don't know if those would actually work..

Nope, the TVS diode serves a totally different function, it wouldn't have made any difference in this case.

@Mellow Hudson Mike posted:

You seem certain that the washer was put there in the factory, and that this was therefore a Lionel QC problem.

Well, now the truth is out.  Amazing as it seems, it was a Lionel stock addition, talk about a stupid move!

@ThatGuy posted:

Shocking……LMAO

Good find, but wow.

Even more shocking is it was actually delivered from Lionel like that!

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

Even more shocking is it was actually delivered from Lionel like that!

Reminds me of years ago, a friend worked at PanAm and the pilots complained about a rattle in the cockpit on landing. They looked and looked but once on the ground it was gone. So they asked the Chief pilot if he could take them up to see if they could find it. Once they started the approach the rattle started. They started to pull panels and poof, a wrench in the overhead. Or as it’s called FUD. It turned out when Boeing built this jet they we’re having labor issues, only thing is every tool has an ID number….yup it did not go well.

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

The washer doesn't touch the motor contacts directly, it touches the copper solder pads around the mounting holes for the board.  One touch and it's all over.

Now I see what you mean John and the clearance is so small between those pads and the washer.

Is the sensor board just pressed on?  Can I gently go around and lift up on it?

Thanks

Incredible!

I'm yet trying to understand the relationship of the stack of parts to each other in the photos...the statics and the rotating parts...and the 'purpose' (intended) of the washer.   But, then, I don't have this particular situation pending.

OTOH, as Soo Line professed, how DID you pull the flywheel from the motor shaft??  Common tools?...or specialized (read: pricey)?

You are, indeed, the patient sleuth, John.  Something as nebulous...and nettlesome!!...as this would've put me near close to another pour!!!

BTW...(off topic)...your elimination of the word "Toy" from several Forum category titles?...Brilliant!    What took you so long??

KD

Hmm, need to take my M10000 apart off the display shelf today. Thanks for all who contributed and confirmed this.

Firm believer of "prevention" seems prudent in this case.

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

Nope, the TVS diode serves a totally different function, it wouldn't have made any difference in this case.

Good to know, thanks!

@Soo Line posted:

Now I see what you mean John and the clearance is so small between those pads and the washer.

Is the sensor board just pressed on?  Can I gently go around and lift up on it?

Thanks

The sensor board is soldered to the two motor terminals, the connection to the motor terminals for powering it is through the two J2 connections at the edge.

You have to pull the flywheel, that requires a wheel puller.  The good news is, they're normally not that hard to pull, but you must have the tool so you don't bend the shaft, that kills the motor!  Getting the sensor board off involves gently prying it up on one side while heating that terminal, then moving to the other side.  It normally takes two to three waggles back and forth to free it from each side.  Clean the solder off the terminals and the sensor board and you're ready to reassemble.  If you damage the sensor board, they are still available at Lionel for $12.  Putting the flywheel back on can be done with a bench vise and a little care.  Since I have a press, I do it the correct way, but the vise works just fine.

@dkdkrd posted:

Incredible!

I'm yet trying to understand the relationship of the stack of parts to each other in the photos...the statics and the rotating parts...and the 'purpose' (intended) of the washer.   But, then, I don't have this particular situation pending.

OTOH, as Soo Line professed, how DID you pull the flywheel from the motor shaft??  Common tools?...or specialized (read: pricey)?

You are, indeed, the patient sleuth, John.  Something as nebulous...and nettlesome!!...as this would've put me near close to another pour!!!

BTW...(off topic)...your elimination of the word "Toy" from several Forum category titles?...Brilliant!    What took you so long??

I have to believe at the time they thought they needed something to stabilize the board.  Who the rocket scientist was that thought a metal washer was a good idea is another issue.

And yes, I was close to another pour when it cooked the new DCDS, that was a low moment!  But then I spotted the heat signs on the motor lead and the penny dropped.

As for the "Toy" word, I got to thinking about a conversation we had a while back here about what was a "Toy" and it struck me why so many were getting admonished for posting in the wrong forum.  Sometimes the simple stuff bites you in the butt.

I'm curious if this was the same locomotive mentioned by Pierre M a few weeks ago in this forum?  The timing is ironic.

Nope, this was a repair that came in to Henning's Trains.  It's the M10000, the only one that seems to have gotten this "special" treatment.

This motor is out of a Lionel 2006 Mikado Jr. Nothing between the shaft/flywheel on this one....

@redbarchetta81 posted:

This motor is out of a Lionel 2006 Mikado Jr. Nothing between the shaft/flywheel on this one....

Apples and oranges, that locomotive doesn't have Odyssey, no reason to shim anything.

gunrunner john,

Maybe to you, but how was I to know that. Please be respectful of those who don't have your "know-how", sir.

Excuse me, I simply stated a fact.  Please don't find disrespect where none is present or intended.

I have the upmost respect for you John, I've learned a couple of neat tricks from you .

Maybe I'm sensitive today .

@redbarchetta81 posted:

I have the upmost respect for you John, I've learned a couple of neat tricks from you .

Maybe I'm sensitive today .

Perhaps I'm being a bit insensitive as well.   I really was just trying to say that I suspect the spacer was there in an effort to align the Odyssey 1 sensor board.  However, since your motor didn't have the board, there'd be no reason to put any spacer in it for alignment.

It's all good!! I've never had a locomotive W/Odessey. That's soon to change!! ( Christmas)...:-)

I wonder if that washer is made of Mu-metal in an effort to cancel any magnetic field from the motor interfering with the sensor for the ring magnet on the flywheel.

It sure looked like a plain washer to me, but since no other motor has ever had a washer there to "solve" whatever problem they thought they were solving, it clearly wasn't needed.

Since it killed the DCDS board anyway, there was no issue with the magnetic interference!