Southern PS-4 Paint Scheme Help

Glad you lit the bat signal Andy!…..now Gray might see it,….I think my messages to him might’ve gone to spam…….

Pat

Andy,

I several years ago I acquired an unpainted Lionel Legacy Southern 4-6-2. I did an article of my work on the OGR Forum that might be of interest to you. I am not a Southern Railway modeler, but really liked this engine ever since I saw it as a kid many moons ago.

I have since sold it but really enjoined bringing the unpainted version to life again.

Ray

https://ogrforum.com/...ps4-painting-project

I think SOU 1401 is the same class. Look up pictures of that locomotive. It is the only one left and is on display in D.C. There should be lots of pictures of it on-line. I can post a picture of my N-scale PS-4 if you would like. Most of the manufacturers of high quality model trains do a good bit of research, so I would imagine mine is fairly accurate.

@Ray of sunshine Thanks for the link, yours is one of the threads I always look at for inspiration!  You did an outstanding job on that engine. 

@Mike D  I saw the 1401 in the Smithsonian years and years ago.  It is one of my favorites.  I can't tell, nor have I seen pictures to know  if the tender and cab roof on the 1401 are red or green.

Most models I see have red roof and red tender...maybe because it is very pleasing color combination...The all green I saw made by PSC was also nice looking and different.  Can't decide if I want to be a sheep and follow or a trendsetter.  It will be on display in my home office when not on the rails.

Does anyone have any information on the black 1372 Crescent?

There is great debate about certain aspects of Southern Railway paint schemes.  Time period and shop make a difference.  Do you want the Crescent Limited scheme with the moon (only applied to 4 engines) that was used during the relatively short lived two tone green Crescent Limited train or the more common Southern scheme?  Economics of the time of the Great Depression and issues with trying to keep a matched equipment consist shortly killed the actual Crescent Limited.  I have never heard of or seen a black Crescent Limited engine, only from model manufacturers.  Maybe it existed, but if it did it wasn't for long

Early paint schemes used gold paint, but it didn't hold up too well.  The later paint jobs used Dulux Gold.  You can get gold decals from K4 Decals, but the Dulux were from Champ and are rarer the the proverbial Hens Tooth.

Smoke box fronts vary from silver to black.  The finish of heat proof graphite and oil was hand mixed and varied greatly between shops and batches.

Red roofs are also of great debate and there is no original (non retouched) color photo of early paint schemes pre WWII that I and others have seen, color film was expensive, slow, and not stable.  There is a common belief among many that the roofs were red to the rain gutters, but the laborers that washed the engines when they came in for servicing only got to the gutters, so the tops never got washed and quickly became "black"  There are paint diagrams that call for green roofs but not black as far as I have seen or talked with people.

Tender decks are another question.  It is believed that a red deck meant stoker equipped and a black or green deck was no stoker, but there are pictures (an As11 0-8-0 in specific) that is hand fired with a red tender deck.

Locomotive details are even more confusing with the six major shops all doing their own thing.

If you want a true representation find a color picture and follow it.  Otherwise you will just have to decide what you want.  I probably existed at some point but who can say it did or didn't.

I personally have been told by a retired engineer (now deceased) of a Mountain that in late days was in the freight scheme of black with big tender numbers, but he couldn't remember the number and NO ONE anywhere in any collection or archive can corroborate this.  I will not paint that unless I have evidence, but that's me.

Do your research and try to get as close as possible, if that is what you want.

Just my knowledge, hope this helps.

Hi Andy,

Does your engine have a 10,000 gallon tender with 4 wheel truck or does it have a 14,000 gallon tender with 6 wheel trucks? The first group of PS4 for Southern that were delivered in 1923 (#1375-1386) had the 10,000 tenders and came from Schenectady in black. The second batch of PS4 came in 1926 with the 14,000 tenders (#1393-1404), built by Richmond equipped with Elesco feed-water heaters and painted green. The last batch of PS4 for Southern arrived in 1928 (#1405-1409) in green. This batch had Elesco feed-water heaters while #1409 came with a Coffin feed-water heater. Only a handful of the second batch were painted special for the Crescent Limited (crescents on the piston covers and cabs, with "Crescent Limited" on the tenders) in 1929 when the train was renewed with updated Pullmans painted in matching two toned green paint and lettered Crescent Limited. This lasted until 1934 because of the Depression.

All PS4 were painted green starting in 1926. Over their service life there were many changes. Typically, in the early 1940's, the pilots were shorten, the walkways were raised, visor were added to headlight, bracket added to whistle, and coal bunker raised. Typically, the engine was green above the walkway and black below. Green was applied to the piston jacket. The smoke-box and firebox was coated in graphite. Starting in 1948 to save on coast, the smoke-box and firebox were painted black. The cab roofs were original painted green, but some shops started painting black between the gutters because the roof was usually covered in shoot. I have been told( haven't verified) that red on the tender deck signified that the engines uses a stoker vs hand fired.

As for the black PS4 pulling the Crescent, that only happened for about 1 year. The Crescent Limited started April 26, 1925, and the green engines from the second batch started arriving in July of 1926.

As for your model, do whatever you like! It's your model. For me, I have an older Williams brass PS4 which is numbered 1401 and has the smaller 10,000 tender with 4 wheel trucks. My goal is to re-number the locomotive (#1375-1386) and put a Worthington feed-water heater on the fireman's side and call it done. The good news is that when your locomotive leaves @harmonyards it will be done right.

Tom

Unless modified , the CLW Ps4 is the version with the Elesco feed water heater and 14000 gallon tender on 6 wheel trucks.

Couple more tidbits, the last 5 Ps4s were Baldwin built and had 12000 gallon tenders on 4 wheel high speed trucks.

The inside of the bell and underside of the headlight visor are bright red.

@NHVRYGray  Thanks for the wealth of information.  I think I want the Crescent Limited Scheme and not the Southern green scheme.  Mostly this will be a display engine until I get going on my layout, so I want something different.  I will probably go with the red tender deck and red roof, but not sure, maybe green roof.  I think it looks great and if some were indeed that way, who am I to change it or argue the point?

@Tom Morris  Thanks Tom!  Great information as well!! I have the 14000 tender with 6 wheel trucks.

This is my CLW model before I sent it to Pat...Although it had Southern on the Tender, I knew I wanted Crescent and Pat said it was too difficult to paint match the current tender to boiler, so we decided to strip all paint and start over...hence trying to figure out what I want.

@roll_the_dice posted:

@NHVRYGray  Thanks for the wealth of information.  I think I want the Crescent Limited Scheme and not the Southern green scheme.  Mostly this will be a display engine until I get going on my layout, so I want something different.  I will probably go with the red tender deck and red roof, but not sure, maybe green roof.  I think it looks great and if some were indeed that way, who am I to change it or argue the point?

@Tom Morris  Thanks Tom!  Great information as well!! I have the 14000 tender with 6 wheel trucks.

This is my CLW model before I sent it to Pat...Although it had Southern on the Tender, I knew I wanted Crescent and Pat said it was too difficult to paint match the current tender to boiler, so we decided to strip all paint and start over...hence trying to figure out what I want.

To add to Andy’s comments on this particular model, the paint work that was there, was pretty much god awful, ( decal reveals, stuff painted with a brush, etc, ) …..so everything got stripped back down to bare brass, and starting back from the ground floor up, …..also, we ditched the wooden tender floor for a nicer stamped steel one. The new paint work will use high quality automotive finishes, beginning with a nice coat of cocktailed epoxy primer for longevity…..

Pat