Spring York 2014 - An Abridged Photo Tour

And that right there is why the no photo rule needed to be changed. 

 

Yep.  While the "pay-to-pee" policy is probably not ED's policy (York Fairgrounds, my guess), it is another thing that needs to move up to 2014.  While not legal in some states, making people work for tips - and making people feel responsible to pay them after visiting the toilet - is despicable.  Time to pay minimum wages for the toilet staff.  Time to end "pay to pee".  Seriously.

David,

 

  Thanks for the information!!

 

Jeff

Thanks to Nick and Scott for all those great photos!  I have no doubt that the additional exposure they provide will entice others to finally join in the fun of this distinctive and very large event.

I've changed my mind about "pay to pee".

The few times I visited the bathrooms at the York fairgrounds, they were very clean, and well stocked. Much cleaner than most of the other public restrooms I've used.

I will gladly tip these guys.

Given the amount of traffic, they probably make more than they would if they were salaried.

No big deal there.  You'll end up paying one way or another, either via the existing policy or through higher entry fees for the event.  Those guys do a fine job of keeping the restrooms clean and well stocked.  Folks who attended York in the earlier years will know and understand how different things are now.  Spend a bit of time talking with those attendants and you'll quickly learn that this is just a side job for most all of them, not their primary source of income.  I have absolutely no problem at all dropping a dollar into their baskets after using the (clean) facilities.

I'm finally able to show my friends outside the hobby why I go to York every October. Thanks Nick & Scott.

Great Photos!!!!    I will have to defiantly get to York looks like a great time eh

Some will seemingly find something to complain about every time and any time, but they'll no longer be getting any support from me on those minuscule issues.  

 

About the only thing I still believe needs to be addressed is the need to do something about the low overall participation on Saturdays (that has always been a problem), but that will take a good bit of additional study and thought…best done via e-mail if folks have truly constructive ideas.

 

The Eastern Division organizers and volunteers do a superb job of running the largest event of its type in the entire world, and they conduct things smoothly and efficiently.  They have my full support, and I know they also have the support of many thousands of others who attend the meet.

 

I'm hopeful that the great photos provided here by several of our forum family members will have a very positive influence on a good many folks who have more or less been sitting on the sidelines in the past and who may now be motivated to see what all the fun is about.

There will ALWAYS be something to complain about.... We are only humans!

Nick, great job with all the photos. It really gives the people who have never attended York a good feel for how immense the meet is. We had an awesome time and great show as you noted by the grins on our faces.

Thank you & see you next York!

Two bits = 25 cents.

 

I can understand that the arrangement appears to be unfair for the attendants, but let's look at this mathematically:

 

If we count the setup time for dealers/table-holders, the meet consists of 37 hours for dealer halls (Wednesday included) and 23 hours for member halls.

 

I count 7 bathrooms in the dealer halls (including one each for the first aid, annex and grandstand buildings) and 5 in the member halls (including the Black Hall in this category).  If there are 2 attendants for each bathroom (1 each for mens' and womens'), then you get 518 man-hours worked for the dealer halls and 230 man-hours worked for the member halls for a total of 748 man-hours worked for the bathroom attendants Wednesday through Saturday.

 

Registration figures have been roughly around 13,000 to 13,500 the last few years.  Now let's assume that the actual number of people that actually showed up to be around 12,000 (this is probably low, but I wanted to err on the side of caution), and that each one uses the bathroom only once on Thursday, twice on Friday, and once on Saturday for a total of 4 visits per person for the entire meet. (Notice that I don't count Wednesday here at all even though it is included in the man-hours calculations above.)

 

Assuming that the average tip is $0.50 per visit (I usually tip $1, and I know that some tip more and some don't tip at all), then the attendants take in $24,000 in tips during the course of the meet.

 

So when you take the $24k and divide by the 748 man-hours worked, you get an average wage of $32.08/hour.  Keep in mind that I was trying to stay conservative in my numbers by including Wednesday setup hours, few bathroom visits and low attendance figures, so the real wage may be even higher.  Even if you assume double the number of man hours (4 attendants - 2 men, 2 women - for each bathroom), you still get a wage of $16.04/hour.

 

Based on the above (and assuming that TCA members aren't the stingiest people on the planet), instituting minimum wage for bathroom attendants would result in a big pay cut for them.

 

Appearnces can be deceiving.

 

Andy

quote:

We'll spend hundreds on trains but can't drop a buck in the tip jar for folks that do a pretty good job cleaning up after you?

 

LOL, some folks worry about the cost of lubricants and smoke fluid.

I agree completely.  We have no issue spending hundreds or thousands on dollars on trains.  But to drop a dollar or two to tip someone who keeps the bathroom in shape "is despicable".  I for one much apprciate there always being toilet paper in the stall and that everything is clean.    A dollor well spent in my opinion.  

Your making me nervous by this observation Andy!   But a good analysis.  A dollar here and a dollar there and soon you're talking serious money.  

 

Still, when you take into account that these attendants have to sit in these bathrooms for hours on end (breathing the whole time...), we should be considerate and tip generously.  I've been in bathrooms where it is obvious that no one cleans them on any kind of regular basis, and it makes me thankful that the York bathrooms are as clean as they are, and that is worth every $1 I tip to me.

 

Andy

Sorry I wasn't clear.   I was referring to serious money for the attendants (in support of your point), not serious money to us.  I have absolutely no issue with tipping them (see my previous post.)

Chris,

 

I think it was me that wasn't as clear as I wanted to be.  I knew you meant that it meant serious money for the attendants.  I wanted to point out that given where they work (and what we do where they work ), they may not be getting enough, and that I appreciate the work they do with an appropriate tip.

 

Andy

Thank you, Nick and Scott, for all the photos on this thread. It was esp. nice to see the event via these photos since I was not present at my usual spot in the Orange Hall this time. Kind of nostalgic for all the fun and good folks, esp. those I know in the Orange Hall.

Thanks again for your efforts and the fine results.

FrankM

Layout Refinements

The National Capitol Trackers and Joey Ricard's layouts had to be seen in person. The photos do not do them justice. Joey is a great guy. Enjoyed speaking with him.

 

 

I agree on both counts!  The Trackers' layout was phenomenal, as was the Fort Pitt group's layout, and it was a delight to see my friend Joey Ricard's outstanding modeling up close and personal.  I'm hoping that readers of the magazine will see much more of Joey's work in the not-too-distant future.  Who knows, we might even see him venture into the world of 3-rail at some point?  His enthusiasm is contagious.

Jeeez,

 

No wonder you guys keep complaining about not having any money.  Now I see why.

 

As for the restrooms,

 

I have a Chevy Volt. On the Chevy Volt forum one of the recurring complaints is having to use premium gas.  Most of those who complain put ~10% or so as much gas in the Volt as any ICE car.   And still some refuse to use the recommended fuel.

 

Some people can read and understand.  Some people can't.  The point of my post is that the attendants should be paid.  In some states not paying people for working is illegal.

 

Nothing was ever stated about not allowing tips.  IMO, tips are an essential part of income for many folk in the present (still tough) economy.  If you like the level of service, a clean toilet and soft TP, then knock yourself out by tipping the paid employees - and tipping them more than four bits.

 

And, yes, it is understood that the ED might have to charge us more for entrance if the York Fair folk raise rates.

 

Seems fair to me.

Thank you, Allan, for putting a positive touch to this sidebar!  I agree with you wholeheartedly!  The facilities could use some modernization and improvements in some of the areas, but the attendants do a VERY fine job of maintaining them.  And, they are always friendly, good-natured, and appreciative.  We (wife and I) tip the attendants freely and generously.  It's voluntary.  There's no obligation....except to one's own conscience, which often is where the 'real' problem exists, IMHO. 

 

Kudos, EDTCA, for the recent York rules relaxations!  Good job! 

 

So, anyone know what the Thursday starting time change for October is proposed to be??  And, will that be for dealers getting access to the halls for setting up, or door opening for meet attendees?  Just curious....not too soon to start planning for October!!! 

 

KD

I think the time changes are the ones discussed in the survey recently. They had more to do with closing times. Thursday noon opening is the only York rule I actually care about preserving so I hope it will remain unchanged. Any earlier and all the people like me that drive Thursday morning to make the opening bell will either be up against dangerous groggy driving or an additional overnight stay.

 

The attendants are getting paid.  They are getting paid directly by the people who are benefitting from their services.  Inserting middle-men into the transaction never improves the transaction unless there is some kind of value added.  And I don't consider the appearance of fairness to be added value.

 

I know from personal, first-hand experience that in general, people are a lot less generous with their tips when they know you are getting paid minimum wage.  Say for example that the attendants are getting around $30/hr in tips.  And lets say that the fairgrounds decide to pay them $10/hr in wages.  People, knowing that the attendants are now paid, will tip less, and for argument's sake, let's say they cut their tips in half (in my experience in the real world, it is usually much worse than that), then the attendants wind up with $25/hr in wages+tips rather than the original $30/hr in tips alone.  Would they be better off this way, with the appearance of "fairness"?

 

The only people qualified to judge what is fair in the arrangement between the fairgrounds people and the bathroom attendants are the fairgrounds people and the bathroom attendants.

 

Andy

And some people are pretty d*mn full of themselves. Must be tough to be so intelligent.  

Hey, thanks for taking your valuable time to recognize all that.  Much appreciated.  Mostly I get:  "If you're so **** smart why ain't you rich."    At least you were "kinda" creative and a little different.  

I missed Joey Ricard's layout.  Thanks for posting the photos! 

 

Sorry you missed that one, Bill!  It's was Joey's premier appearance at York.  His modeling prowess is truly something to behold.  Absolutely mind-blowing!  And those tiny On30 trains of his are operating via battery power.

The York Meet is not alone with restroom people working for tips. Other shows at York fairgrounds, including ones at other places, operate the same way. Being 72, I need the restrooms more now...but I always leave a $1. tip. There but for the grace of God go I.

Nick........we had a River City 3 Railers meeting at my house last evening.....I used your pics to show the TCA nonmembers what we are always talking about.......they were in awe to a man......Great job with the tour photos!

 

I think we have a few new members in the wings!

Thank you Eastern Division York Rules Committee for allowing pics!

 

Peter

 

I believe the York meet "tinkle tax" is unique to the TCA or ED.  I attend various other fairground events, such as Greenberg shows, outdoor shows, etc. on a yearly basis. 

 

The TCA meet is the only one where I have encountered the bath attendants.

 

I assume that the Fairgrounds personnel routinely service the restrooms for all other shows.

 

Tony

You do a lot of driving from Virginia to the York fairgrounds! Or are you talking about other fairgrounds? The York fairgrounds postcard show I attend in Nov. has tipping. So does the Allentown train show.

No other fairgrounds, Joe.  And even York visitations have been cut back as of late.

 

The old 95 Buick at 28 mpg has developed electrical gremlins that have temporarily sidelined it until they can be located.

 

The 06 F150 gets only 15-18 mpg.

 

Needless to say the Motor Home at 9.2 mpg gets used for extended stopovers only, not general driving around.

 

So my observations have been limited to York Fairgrounds only.

 

Tony

Nick and everyone!!

 

I have been so busy with York contacts and new sponsors that I haven't had a chance to participate on the forum as I usually do...so I am a little late to this party.  Regardless, better late than never!!  Thanks for all of the pictures...they certainly show the overwhelming amount of "train stuff" that is available.  This was my second time to attend and I am still in awe! 

 

Alan

Thanks Alan! Debbie Geiser actually emailed me recently, they liked the photos and will be putting some of them up on the TCA ED website. Cool! 

Great news!

 

Peter