@Lionelzwl2012 posted:I have one question here. why in the world did lionel put the traction tires on the front wheels instead of the back set? this would have made the traction tire replacement not such a pita.
can the wheels be swaped around making it easier next time shawn?
You can swap the wheelsets but it doesn’t run as smoothly. A few have tried it and went back. Its really not that hard to change tires on these engines given the axles drop out,
Pete
What he said. I tried it, and I swapped them back after the experiment.
Definitely really helpful. I even messaged on another topic to guide over here because it was the same engine. They didn't have any issues on their layout with all the FasTrack, but that may change.
Well, the person I linked this topic to had no issues with his Strasburg 89 until it went the other way on his layout. He ran his counterclockwise on his layout, but going clockwise is when the issues started. Obviously it isn't a question of running this way to that way, more of when it decides that it doesn't like your layout. I have to go pick up my 89 a little bit later today, I'll work on traction tires another day as I have a ton of stuff to get done before July.
Update: So, when I thought I resolved the issue with the derailing through Fastrack switches by switching to MTH tractions tires, I forgot to test pulling passenger cars.
Even though the MTH tires solved the derailing issue, the MTH tires are much thinner and have less traction when pulling the Strasburg passenger cars. I can pull 4 of the 6 cars up a grade with minor slippage, but not all 6. With 6 it can't make it up the grade. Using the Lionel tires, it can pull fine over the grade with 6 cars.
Final solution - Use MTH tires & only pull 4 cars.
Hopefully Lionel speaks up and replaces the tires with the correct thickness. The Lionel ones are too thick and MTH ones a little too thin for the Lionel groove. But they weren't made for that groove.
Here a quick video of what happens.
Sean,
What percent grade is that?
You have a few things working against you. Tires on the front wheelset vs the rear and Fastrack which has round profile so less contact area.
Pete
@Norton posted:You have a few things working against you. Tires on the front wheelset vs the rear and Fastrack which has round profile so less contact area.
Pete
Nothing I can do to change that unfortunately.
@NJCJOE posted:Sean,
What percent grade is that?
I don't remember it's been a decade now, but no engine I own from Lionel or MTH has ever had an issue with it. As I showed with the Lionel tires it has no issue. I have run a Berkshire with 53 boxcars, and it had no issue, so it's not the grade.
See if you have room to add some weights.
@Sean's Train Depot - Mr. chessiechick suggested sanding down the Lionel traction tires just a bit.
Attached is his quick drawing of an apparatus to do this. Put the tire on a wooden dowel, stick a screw or threaded rod into the center end of the dowel, and insert the screw/rod into your drill. Then spin the tire around and sand lightly.
Mine has no issue at all with seven woodside cars on a 2.5% grade.
It looks like you're using Ross track, John. As Pete said, flat-top rail creates a wider traction surface.
Sean, double-check that the Lionel tires are fully seated in the groove (as much as possible), and smooth all the way around. If there's a lump or bump it will cost you traction.
Agree with the suggestion to add a little lead weight AHEAD of the rubber-tired wheels, perhaps in the smokebox area. Wrap it in electrical tape to prevent it from shorting anything.
I'm sure you already thought of this, but make sure your track is scrupulously clean. You could also try putting a TINY drop of oil on the passenger car bearings. If you're always going to run that Strasburg set together, you could put tethers between the cars and remove the pickup rollers from all but the first and last cars. This will definitely reduce drag! If the cars have LED lighting, the tethers could be very light-gauge wire and small connectors.
It's a shame that you have to go to extraordinary lengths. I really wonder WHY Lionel chose to put the tires on the front driving axle? Everyone knows that weight transfers to the rear during acceleration!
@Ted S posted:It looks like you're using Ross track, John. As Pete said, flat-top rail creates a wider traction surface.
I realize that, I was just showing the grade and ability to haul the seven cars up without an issue.
@Ted S posted:Agree with the suggestion to add a little lead weight AHEAD of the rubber-tired wheels, perhaps in the smokebox area. Wrap it in electrical tape to prevent it from shorting anything.
There's no room to add more than a few BB's inside the boiler, that's not going to work for this locomotive!
Well, they're not cheap. But if Sean is really desperate, he could make up a bundle of tungsten fly fishing weights. That's about the densest common material there is (unless you happen to have some depleted uranium lying around 
.)
Forget adding weights. You can barely add a few pieces of paper inside these engines.
Pete
Yeah, ….I agree with Pete & John, there’s zero room in these engines, …..you ain’t adding any weight that’ll amount to any significance,….
Sean, if you could, flip your engine over, and take a pic of wheel set with the MTH traction tires on it, …..let’s take a look and see if collectively we see something amiss,….if the tires got too thin ( side to side in the groove ) by having to stretch them over the wheel, you might need a unique set of tires from a different application, to get the engine to do what you want it to do,……obviously if John can yank all the cars uphill, with no worries, the engine is capable, …
Pat
& BTW, trying to sand rubber tires I don’t think is the answer either, …this just sounds super messy …..
Pat
I actually had two more cars on my train at one point, but only seven and the engine fit on one track in the yard, so the others are in the closet.
@Ted S posted:It looks like you're using Ross track, John. As Pete said, flat-top rail creates a wider traction surface.
Sean, double-check that the Lionel tires are fully seated in the groove (as much as possible), and smooth all the way around. If there's a lump or bump it will cost you traction.
Agree with the suggestion to add a little lead weight AHEAD of the rubber-tired wheels, perhaps in the smokebox area. Wrap it in electrical tape to prevent it from shorting anything.
I'm sure you already thought of this, but make sure your track is scrupulously clean. You could also try putting a TINY drop of oil on the passenger car bearings. If you're always going to run that Strasburg set together, you could put tethers between the cars and remove the pickup rollers from all but the first and last cars. This will definitely reduce drag! If the cars have LED lighting, the tethers could be very light-gauge wire and small connectors.
It's a shame that you have to go to extraordinary lengths. I really wonder WHY Lionel chose to put the tires on the front driving axle? Everyone knows that weight transfers to the rear during acceleration!
Haha, I’m not redesigning an engine and cars. I’ll leave the MTH ones on and just run 4 cars. Maybe Lionel will do the right thing and redesign the tire and send them to anyone having an issue.
@gunrunnerjohn posted:Mine has no issue at all with seven woodside cars on a 2.5% grade.
So can mine with the Lionel tires, but then I can’t go through a switch!
@harmonyards posted:& BTW, trying to sand rubber tires I don’t think is the answer either, …this just sounds super messy …..
Pat
Haha thanks but I’ll pass on that, lol
@harmonyards posted:Yeah, ….I agree with Pete & John, there’s zero room in these engines, …..you ain’t adding any weight that’ll amount to any significance,….
Sean, if you could, flip your engine over, and take a pic of wheel set with the MTH traction tires on it, …..let’s take a look and see if collectively we see something amiss,….if the tires got too thin ( side to side in the groove ) by having to stretch them over the wheel, you might need a unique set of tires from a different application, to get the engine to do what you want it to do,……obviously if John can yank all the cars uphill, with no worries, the engine is capable, …
Pat
It’s not a weight issue as it can pull all the cars fine up the grade when using Lionel tires.
The MTH ones are just a little too thin. Remember the groove cut in the wheel is for the thicker tire, so the MTH one sits basically flush because groove is deeper. Guessing it doesn’t touch enough of the track. MTH groove made for MTH tires, Lionel groove made for Lionel tires. Simple as that.
@Ted S posted:Well, they're not cheap. But if Sean is really desperate, he could make up a bundle of tungsten fly fishing weights. That's about the densest common material there is (unless you happen to have some depleted uranium lying around
Lol I am not desperate. Thanks anyway.
@Sean's Train Depot posted:So can mine with the Lionel tires, but then I can’t go through a switch!
Oddly, I had a couple of K-Line diesel sets that couldn't make it around Fastrack curves, I screwed around with them for a long time. I'm going to dig them out and see if the Ross/Gargraves track solved the problem, that would be cool if it did!
@Sean's Train Depot posted:....so it's not the grade.
What about the combination of the 90-degree curve and the grade?
MELGAR
@MELGAR posted:What about the combination of the 90-degree curve and the grade?
I have a curve on my grade, so it's not just the curve. Truthfully, my grade starts around 150-160 degrees around on the entry to the grade. The curve is around 120 diameter into the grade, but it's a curve on the grade.
@Sean's Train Depot posted:It’s not a weight issue as it can pull all the cars fine up the grade when using Lionel tires.
The MTH ones are just a little too thin. Remember the groove cut in the wheel is for the thicker tire, so the MTH one sits basically flush because groove is deeper. Guessing it doesn’t touch enough of the track. MTH groove made for MTH tires, Lionel groove made for Lionel tires. Simple as that.
well, then simply pull 4 cars, …….😉
Pat
Hmm, this is quite the conundrum. I didn't get a chance to pop in here and comment earlier, after watching Sean's updated video. Like I could add anything to it now. I had at first thought about the engine's pulling power, I think Mogul's were discussed on their pulling power elsewhere, but then I thought maybe the cars were heavier than what John's video was pulling. Heck, I don't think it really matters much even if that was the case. A few ounces here, and a few ounces there. Heck, you guys got me. I haven't done squat to mine yet, even though there will be no grades when I build my layout, but Ross switches will be a part of it. I guess I will sit back and let the experts find a good solution to this problem.
Have you tried an Atlas traction tire? Do they even have traction tires that would fit the #89's wheels?
@Dave NYC Hudson PRR K4 posted:I had at first thought about the engine's pulling power, I think Mogul's were discussed on their pulling power elsewhere, but then I thought maybe the cars were heavier than what John's video was pulling. Heck, I don't think it really matters much even if that was the case. A few ounces here, and a few ounces there.
My cars are the MTH Premiere Woodside Strasburg passenger cars, pretty sure the OP is pulling the same cars.
I can't imagine I'm the only one, but when my 89 derailed due to the tire issue, at speed step 11 as note, it actually took a few chunks out of the pilot wheels and severely chewed up the flange on the #1 driver set, with the traction tires. To the point where I do feel replacement wheels are now in order, as the flange is thin enough and warped enough at points where that alone may well pick switches. I've never seen any other engine from Lionel or MTH do that, and after something like 18 years of collecting O scale, it's not like this is the first time an engine has derailed in my collection. It honestly made me wonder if there are wheels off another engine I might be able to swap out with these, because to keep these new moguls running long term I think I would need to keep many, many spare wheel sets on hand.
Its starting to sound like Lionel changed the wheels on this last run. I have 5 moguls (had six but sold one) including two Legacy and none have ever jumped the track or lost wheel material.
Have you guys who are having issues ever checked the wheel gauge? Should be just under 1.25” between the flanges.
Pete
@MissingME&WV posted:I can't imagine I'm the only one, but when my 89 derailed due to the tire issue, at speed step 11 as note, it actually took a few chunks out of the pilot wheels and severely chewed up the flange on the #1 driver set, with the traction tires. To the point where I do feel replacement wheels are now in order, as the flange is thin enough and warped enough at points where that alone may well pick switches. I've never seen any other engine from Lionel or MTH do that, and after something like 18 years of collecting O scale, it's not like this is the first time an engine has derailed in my collection. It honestly made me wonder if there are wheels off another engine I might be able to swap out with these, because to keep these new moguls running long term I think I would need to keep many, many spare wheel sets on hand.
Might you have pictures of all this carnage?
Pat
@harmonyards posted:Might you have pictures of all this carnage?
Pat
I'll grab some when I go to attempt a traction tire change on them. Nothing I have fit between the crosshead guides and the hex bolt, so I am searching for a tool tiny enough to fit in that spot to actually change out the tires.
@MissingME&WV posted:I'll grab some when I go to attempt a traction tire change on them. Nothing I have fit between the crosshead guides and the hex bolt, so I am searching for a tool tiny enough to fit in that spot to actually change out the tires.
Easiest way is drop the wheelset. Remove the screws from the center drivers, then the two pickup rollers, and finally the six screws holding the bottom plate on. Takes three minutes or less.
Pete
Like Pete says, the Mogul is one of the few locomotives that it actually makes sense to take the wheel sets off to do the tires. 
@harmonyards posted:Might you have pictures of all this carnage?
Pat
Here are mine. They get chewed up on derailment or it could just be arcing from all the sparks.
@MissingME&WV posted:I'll grab some when I go to attempt a traction tire change on them. Nothing I have fit between the crosshead guides and the hex bolt, so I am searching for a tool tiny enough to fit in that spot to actually change out the tires.
The tool the engine comes with works fine. Just push the rod all the way into the crosshead guide and swing it up or down. Turn wheel to the center of crosshead and bolt is easily accessible.
@harmonyards posted:Yeah, ….I agree with Pete & John, there’s zero room in these engines, …..you ain’t adding any weight that’ll amount to any significance,….
Sean, if you could, flip your engine over, and take a pic of wheel set with the MTH traction tires on it, …..let’s take a look and see if collectively we see something amiss,….if the tires got too thin ( side to side in the groove ) by having to stretch them over the wheel, you might need a unique set of tires from a different application, to get the engine to do what you want it to do,……obviously if John can yank all the cars uphill, with no worries, the engine is capable, …
Pat
Here they are. The MTH tires ride just BELOW the edge of the groove. Hence why there is less traction.
I tried as an experiment to put 2 MTH tires on. That brought the tire thickness in between a single MTH tire and the Lionel tire. It immediately started derailing.
So now I am pretty sure that Lionel probably can't make a tire that works if they wanted. The wheel flange is just too shallow if anything is past the groove. Needs redesigned wheels (which will never happen).
So only solution to stop my derailing is use MTH tires.
These moguls just seem to have a bad track record.
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