Sean, I am using undersize Lionel tires. They are close to flush with the groove, not below it. They start out thicker but thin out as they are stretched quite a bit.
Lionel Tire, not the one listed for the Mogul.
Pete
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@Norton posted:Sean, I am using undersize Lionel tires. They are close to flush with the groove, not below it. They start out thicker but thin out as they are stretched quite a bit.
Lionel Tire, not the one listed for the Mogul.
Pete
There are lots of different tires, but without a part number I have no idea what to get.
I knew your dilemma when you posted the video of it slipping on the grade with the MTH tires. If you fellas really love your engines, and you want to keep them, I will design, and implement a fix. I can do this in the fall when time permits. There’s no question the Lionel tires are not working correctly for you & perhaps a few other owners. It would be nice if Lionel develops the fix, but there would have to be a mass complaint, that turns their ear on its side, so until then, I wouldn’t expect any campaign……of course, as you said in your video, you’re thinking of returning it for refund, but if you decide to keep it, it can be fixed. I’m not excusing the big L, ….and this isn’t the first time we’ve designed & implemented an aftermarket campaign solution for certain issues,…..it’ll all depend on how you fellas want to roll, ….kickn’ or stickn’……😉
Pat
I see Pete might have the easiest solution of all, ……..
Pat
@Sean's Train Depot posted:There are lots of different tires, but without a part number I have no idea what to get.
Not so easy Pat but this is what I have used. May be a bit extreme though.
I had to use this to install the tire.
This is the stock tire at least on the TMCC Moguls. 1” diameter.
A better compromise might be this 3/4” tire.
Pete
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@gunrunnerjohn posted:My cars are the MTH Premiere Woodside Strasburg passenger cars, pretty sure the OP is pulling the same cars.
Yeah, I did think that they may be the same MTH cars and not the Lionel ones.
@Norton posted:
Well, I guess that the old website someone talked about(Train Doctor I think) is definitely out of date on the Lionel traction tire list. I don't see those numbers over on that list.
Pete, at least the tires you posted can be tried at the DIY level, ….my suggestion to these fellas having issues would be to exhaust the simpler solutions first, then we’ll get a touch more aggressive, ……IF they want to keep them,….😉
Pat
@harmonyards posted:Pete, at least the tires you posted can be tried at the DIY level, ….my suggestion to these fellas having issues would be to exhaust the simpler solutions first, then we’ll get a touch more aggressive, ……IF they want to keep them,….😉
Pat
I'm definitely keeping my engine. I am not the tinkerer, but I know those that do. If something bungles me, I ask and get help. It'll be on the list I'm sure Pat.
Absolutely Dave, …run it first, and if it’s a troublemaker, we’ll route it out!!…
Pat
@MissingME&WV posted:I can't imagine I'm the only one, but when my 89 derailed due to the tire issue, at speed step 11 as note, it actually took a few chunks out of the pilot wheels and severely chewed up the flange on the #1 driver set, with the traction tires. To the point where I do feel replacement wheels are now in order, as the flange is thin enough and warped enough at points where that alone may well pick switches. I've never seen any other engine from Lionel or MTH do that, and after something like 18 years of collecting O scale, it's not like this is the first time an engine has derailed in my collection. It honestly made me wonder if there are wheels off another engine I might be able to swap out with these, because to keep these new moguls running long term I think I would need to keep many, many spare wheel sets on hand.
Unless your loco dropped to the floor, I can't believe that a derailment at normal speed took "chunks out of the wheels" or bent the flanges. There's a photo on the first page of this thread that shows discoloration on the back of a wheel from arcing, which can happen if there's a short circuit and your breaker protection isn't quick to act. Perhaps that's what you're seeing.
I think the front and rear driving wheelsets on these Moguls might be the same, except that the rear set doesn't have the groove for a tire. So... Has anyone tried ordering a new REAR wheelset, and installing it in place of the front? If the MTH tire is undersized and not making full contact with the rails, running a full-diameter metal wheelset up front might give equal or better traction than the MTH tire, while still preserving enough flange depth to avoid derailments. Doing this would also eliminate tire replacements in the future.
I'm not a fan of rubber tires, and unlike most of you I could probably live without the smoke feature. If I owned one of these, I would definitely try smooth steel wheels front and rear. If I still needed more pulling power, my next move would be to remove the smoke unit (horrors!) and fill that area of the smokebox with as many tungsten weights as I could afford. But that's just me!
@Ted S posted:Unless your loco dropped to the floor, I can't believe that a derailment at normal speed took "chunks out of the wheels" or bent the flanges. There's a photo on the first page of this thread that shows discoloration on the back of a wheel from arcing, which can happen if there's a short circuit and your breaker protection isn't quick to act. Perhaps that's what you're seeing.
I think the front and rear driving wheelsets on these Moguls might be the same, except that the rear set doesn't have the groove for a tire. So... Has anyone tried ordering a new REAR wheelset, and installing it in place of the front? If the MTH tire is undersized and not making full contact with the rails, running a full-diameter metal wheelset up front might give equal or better traction than the MTH tire, while still preserving enough flange depth to avoid derailments. Doing this would also eliminate tire replacements in the future.
I'm not a fan of rubber tires, and unlike most of you I could probably live without the smoke feature. If I owned one of these, I would definitely try smooth steel wheels front and rear. If I still needed more pulling power, my next move would be to remove the smoke unit (horrors!) and fill that area of the smokebox with as many tungsten weights as I could afford. But that's just me!
These are not things you do to a brand new 720.00 engine. These are things you do to an old used engine.
The wheels are absolutely getting chewed up by the arcing and also being jammed between the points of the switch and the outer rail when the main wheels go the wrong way. I have never seen wheels look this way from derailments before.
I have a ZW-L powering my layout, so it is super quick protection.
I don't mind trying simple tire changes, but I'm not hacking away at a brand-new Legacy engine, lol.
There are no parts for this engine available (at least not yet) and not sure how the drive wheels are switched if the front has the drive gear on it.
The MTH tires stop the derailment, which is the main issue.
My small hobby shop can't do refunds for Lionel products, and it just happened to be that I used my Apple Card on this purchase which does not have Purchase protection feature (I won't make the same mistake when the #90 comes in, lol).
So, this one I will keep and just run with 4 cars on the grade.
I still love the 1970's paint scheme on this one.
Sean, the drive gear is on the middle drivers. The front and rear drivers can be easily swapped but not sure it will help in your situation.
Here is the parts list for the last run of Legacy Moguls. Pretty sure the mechanical parts are interchangeable with yours. Interesting the traction tire is 3/4” OD vs the 1” used on the early TMCC Moguls. No idea what was used on this run.
http://www.lionel.com/products...-locomotive-6-84070/
Pete
@Norton posted:Sean, the drive gear is on the middle drivers. The front and rear drivers can be easily swapped but not sure it will help in your situation.
Here is the parts list for the last run of Legacy Moguls. Pretty sure the mechanical parts are interchangeable with yours. Interesting the traction tire is 3/4” OD vs the 1” used on the early TMCC Moguls. No idea what was used on this run.
http://www.lionel.com/products...-locomotive-6-84070/
Pete
Well, I will give it one last try. I ordered the 3/4" and a set of 13/16" tires from Lionel. However, unlike MTH parts, these won't come within a few days. So could be a while for the results.
I can't believe how much I have spent on traction tires, lol.
If you do try the driver swap, be careful when you remove the rear driver set. All the previous runs had springs than can fall out, only used on the rear drivers. Axle bearings are all the same and have the nub on one side the fits into the spring. Note the orientation.
Pete
If you fellas with problems on fast track can’t get any joy with available tires from inventory, the solution would be to modify the wheel set to accept the MTH tire and get that pronounced lip down to the level of the tire. Not horribly invasive for those of us with machines, I would start with measurements, determining how much material to remove, and look at those numbers vs. the other two axle sets. We might get away just modding the front set, but I wouldn’t know until one comes across my plate,…..running on Atlas track, with no grades, my TMCC NYC Mogul has no issues……Where there’s a will, there’s a way, and in Sean’s case, beings he’s got to keep it, it may be worth the investment so he can pull his full consist, ……that’s entirely up to him, but this problem can be overcome,……I’ve circled the areas that are giving Sean his fits ….
Pat 
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@Norton posted:Sean, the drive gear is on the middle drivers. The front and rear drivers can be easily swapped but not sure it will help in your situation.
Here is the parts list for the last run of Legacy Moguls. Pretty sure the mechanical parts are interchangeable with yours. Interesting the traction tire is 3/4” OD vs the 1” used on the early TMCC Moguls. No idea what was used on this run.
http://www.lionel.com/products...-locomotive-6-84070/
Pete
In the catalog it has this statement - '"Featuring an improved back drivable gearbox". Not sure what that means.
Unless someone has taken apart the new Moguls & has pictures, don't think we can assume they are the same.
Removing the pickup rollers and bottom plate will determine which driver set has the gear and if front and rear are interchangable.
Pete
@harmonyards posted:running on Atlas track, with no grades, my TMCC NYC Mogul has no issues……
Since Atlas has the flat top profile, I would assume that you'd have little issue, mine runs perfectly on Ross/Gargraves. The round top Fastrack profile appears to be a significant part of the problem.
The 2002 TMCC Moguls are the best out there. They came with a better motor and zero issues including traction tires that didn’t derail the engines. 2011 remakes were also OK. It always puzzled me why the Legacy versions seem to have issues. The only thing better than a TMCC Mogul is two TMCC Moguls.
Pete
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Is there any difference in "hardness" of the different traction tires that could contribute to the slippage?
Not sure if anyone has a durometer hardness tester?
@DaveGG posted:Is there any difference in "hardness" of the different traction tires that could contribute to the slippage?
Not sure if anyone has a durometer hardness tester?
I don’t think this is a tire hardness problem Dave, what it looks like is there’s not much tire selection out there to accommodate the issue on Fast Track, ……what’s happening in Sean’s case when he switches to MTH tires, the tire sits down in a valley, and given the location of the tires ( front axle ) and the profile of the rail head, his engine ain’t riding on the rubber tire at all,…….ok if he’s on level track, but it’s exasperating when he approaches his grade, …..and if there’s any curves in the grade ( which he has ) the problem gets worse cause now she’s locked on the defined metal lip, and the rubber tire again, ain’t even touching the rail head,….he will have to either find that “perfect tire” or mod the engine to accept the MTH tires …..
Pat
Got it. Thanks.
The devil is in the details…They (Lionel) need to actually test their products more thoroughly prior to production.
@harmonyards posted:I don’t think this is a tire hardness problem Dave, what it looks like is there’s not much tire selection out there to accommodate the issue on Fast Track, ……what’s happening in Sean’s case when he switches to MTH tires, the tire sits down in a valley, and given the location of the tires ( front axle ) and the profile of the rail head, his engine ain’t riding on the rubber tire at all,…….ok if he’s on level track, but it’s exasperating when he approaches his grade, …..and if there’s any curves in the grade ( which he has ) the problem gets worse cause now she’s locked on the defined metal lip, and the rubber tire again, ain’t even touching the rail head,….he will have to either find that “perfect tire” or mod the engine to accept the MTH tires …..
Pat
Would an option be to make the tire "groove" deeper so the thicker Lionel tires are sitting equal to the edges of the metal groove?
My thought on reducing the groove rim sides to match the MTH tires, a person is reducing the overall diameter of the wheel. Not by much, but some. And given there are three sets of wheel, could this cause a teeter-totter effect with the center wheel set.
I was interested in knowing if there is any clearance of the center wheels to the track or if the idea is to have all three wheel sets on the track with equal force. When I checked a couple of my Lionel engines, there is about 0.001" (10 thousandth of an inch) clearance. So any reduction in the front driver wheels (by either method) could reduce the traction force if the center wheel set come in contact with the track. Thoughts?? (By the way a piece of paper is about 3 thousandth of an inch.)
@DaveGG posted:Would an option be to make the tire "groove" deeper so the thicker Lionel tires are sitting equal to the edges of the metal groove?
My thought on reducing the groove rim sides to match the MTH tires, a person is reducing the overall diameter of the wheel. Not by much, but some. And given there are three sets of wheel, could this cause a teeter-totter effect with the center wheel set.
I was interested in knowing if there is any clearance of the center wheels to the track or if the idea is to have all three wheel sets on the track with equal force. When I checked a couple of my Lionel engines, there is about 0.001" (10 thousandth of an inch) clearance. So any reduction in the front driver wheels (by either method) could reduce the traction force if the center wheel set come in contact with the track. Thoughts?? (By the way a piece of paper is about 3 thousandth of an inch.)
Absolutely could be a possibility Dave, …..I always leave every option on the table till I have the workpiece in front of me on the bench, ……I touched upon this in an earlier reply, ….until I measure everything, and see what the math looks like, nothing gets cut!…..
Pat
Hi guys Harry here from Henning's Trains. We had some that we fixed the problem without changing any traction tires. The wheels with traction tires should be swapped with the back set of wheels do this and a you get better traction and you don't pick the switches.
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Harry, I did that to mine, it ran worse, so I swapped them back. Mine runs fine, but I was trying to increase the traction, that didn't work. This is on the first Legacy version, but in comparing them side by side, I see no differences in the configuration of the wheels. However, the #89 pulls seven of the Woodside passenger cars up my 2.5% grade, so I'm not going to fool with it.
@hah3 posted:Hi guys Harry here from Henning's Trains. We had some that we fixed the problem without changing any traction tires. The wheels with traction tires should be swapped with the back set of wheels do this and a you get better traction and you don't pick the switches.
I will try that. Hosting my club meeting this weekend so won't get to it until next week.
I have some tires on the way from old moguls.
Someone else e-mailed me and said they called Lionel and they are aware of the issue and sending him correct tires. So don't know what to think. They did not answer my e-mail, even though the system acknowledges the receipt of it. Calling is hard during the day as I am on non-stop calls all day. I have off tomorrow, so I will see if I can get them on the phone. I'll ask them if what they would send me are the same ones I ordered.
Somehow, I will get this fixed! lol.
Stay tuned.
From what I have seen some have the thiner traction tires on them.
Mostly the 70s version have the thinner traction tires on them. I did not have a problem with mine through switches on the fast track at shop.
The 2000 are the ones for some reason they seem to have the thicker traction tires on them.
@hah3 posted:From what I have seen some have the thiner traction tires on them.
Mostly the 70s version have the thinner traction tires on them. I did not have a problem with mine through switches on the fast track at shop.
The 2000 are the ones for some reason they seem to have the thicker traction tires on them.
Well, mine is the 1970's version so.. I left work early and called Lionel. The first lady who answered I explained the situation and her first response was to return/exchange it at my hobby shop. So, I said that wasn't possible and another person had e-mailed me he had called them and was informed they were aware of the issue and were sending him different tires. She looked up the item number and said there was no info on any issues with this engine. I pressed her to check with service, she said she would & put me on hold and never came back. Another lady picked up and started the conversation all over again, with me repeating everything I told the first person. She said maybe the flanges needed adjustment. HUH? She took my e-mail and said she would check with parts. I said it wouldn't make sense to send the same tires, can she check with service? She said she would and e-mail me.
Not to be pessimistic, but at this point I don't expect to ever hear from anyone, lol.
This is turning out to be a comedy show, lol
I will try switching the axles. If that fails, I will then try the original generation Mogul tires that are on the way on the switched axles and hope it works.
Just a quick update. I have fixed my engine. It runs flawlessly on my layout including pulling all cars up my grade. It was not just traction tires or switching axles. My video is uploading now.
But in the meantime, Lionel finally responded to me.
They acknowledge the issue now. They are sending out are the original ones for the first gen Moguls it looks like. By coincidence the same ones I ordered and are already in transit.
However, based on what I found, this most likely will not cure it 100% for everyone. Stay Tuned.
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Sean, I watched some of your video. It appears Lionel replaced the springs that were used on the rear axles with the brass plate(s) that you found. The reason the rear axle now has more vertical movement is because I assume you left them out. All the previous Moguls had springs which pressed the bearings against the bottom plate. You want to have either springs or plates over the rear axle if you want all six wheels on the same plane against the rail.
Pete
Hmm, I'll have to check out the video. I sort of wonder how this will all work when I get a chance to run mine. I may have to make some sort of make shift rails through switches to run on since I currently just have an oval.
@Norton posted:Sean, I watched some of your video. It appears Lionel replaced the springs that were used on the rear axles with the brass plate(s) that you found. The reason the rear axle now has more vertical movement is because I assume you left them out. All the previous Moguls had springs which pressed the bearings against the bottom plate. You want to have either springs or plates over the rear axle if you want all six wheels on the same plane against the rail.
Pete
There were No springs. And only 2 brass shims on one side. That’s why I think the factory made a mistake and forgot the other side. That play in the rear is how it’s been since day one before I even touched it. Remember this was an updated gear train per the catalog, whatever that meant. If you watch to the end you will see what happened. I did not remove anything.
The gearbox now has the intermediate gear that Lionel has been using in most of the Legacy engines lately. Thats OK if it doesn’t move sideways like the H10.
I suspect a few more may be swapping out traction tires. That may yield more info on the brass spacers and axle play.
Pete
Sean,
It’s not clear to me in the video when and where that one shim that was stuck to the spokes of the non-traction tire wheel set falls out. So part of me thinks the real culprit was the fact that the front axle was wedged in there, and maybe crooked at that.
Anyway, glad you got it working, but truly sad that end users have to go to these lengths to fix brand new locomotives.
so long story short. I ask because I am getting one of mr. muffins exclusive runs.
should the tires and brass shims be on the rear? or should the shims be on the back and the tires be on the front?
I watched seans video and he and harry seam to have different tire placement positions for there end result fixes.
@Lionelzwl2012 posted:so long story short. I ask because I am getting one of mr. muffins exclusive runs.
should the tires and brass shims be on the rear? or should the shims be on the back and the tires be on the front?
I watched seans video and he and harry seam to have different tire placement positions for there end result fixes.
They should be on the rear axle. I pulled my video and reposted it with updated info once Harry told me what his looked like.
So, I went back and put both shims under rear axle. It still runs perfect through all the switches. I think a unique issue to mine was the jammed Front bearings. Not sure if other 1970's version have same issue or mine was a one off. But once I fixed that and moved the wheelset everything ran perfect. Also, Lionel will send the Generation 1 Mogul tires if you request them. That is their fix, but they did not mention moving wheelsets. But even so I would put them on the back since it drives up grades better and so easy to change tires. The updated video (which I cut in half) is out there.
Here's the update -
Update: 6-23-23 - The engine is finally fixed due to all the people participating on this forum. My engine runs flawlessly through all my Fastrack switches now like my other engines.
In the end a few things resulted in the fix.
1. Swapping Front Wheelset & Rear Wheelset to move traction tires to the Rear.
2. Fixing jammed Front wheelset (was jammed into the frame and the bearing blocks had no movement in their slot unlike the rear. Axle was basically not horizontal.
Doing the above I was able to use Lionel Tractions tires which now allowed my engine to pull my 6 car Strasburg set up the grade.
Lionel's only current suggested fix is to use the different set of tires they will send you if requested (Generation 1 Mogul tires).
Regardless I would swap the wheelset for even better traction and also to make tire changes super easy.
Thanks to everyone for helping me resolve this craziness. Here is the final video which shows the disassembly and fix.
@Sean's Train Depot posted:They should be on the rear axle. I pulled my video and reposted it with updated info once Harry told me what his looked like.
So, I went back and put both shims under rear axle. It still runs perfect through all the switches. I think a unique issue to mine was the jammed Front bearings. Not sure if other 1970's version have same issue or mine was a one off. But once I fixed that and moved the wheelset everything ran perfect. Also, Lionel will send the Generation 1 Mogul tires if you request them. That is their fix, but they did not mention moving wheelsets. But even so I would put them on the back since it drives up grades better and so easy to change tires. The updated video (which I cut in half) is out there.
Here's the update -
Update: 6-23-23 - The engine is finally fixed due to all the people participating on this forum. My engine runs flawlessly through all my Fastrack switches now like my other engines.
In the end a few things resulted in the fix.
1. Swapping Front Wheelset & Rear Wheelset to move traction tires to the Rear.
2. Fixing jammed Front wheelset (was jammed into the frame and the bearing blocks had no movement in their slot unlike the rear. Axle was basically not horizontal.
Doing the above I was able to use Lionel Tractions tires which now allowed my engine to pull my 6 car Strasburg set up the grade.
Lionel's only current suggested fix is to use the different set of tires they will send you if requested (Generation 1 Mogul tires).
Regardless I would swap the wheelset for even better traction and also to make tire changes super easy.
Thanks to everyone for helping me resolve this craziness. Here is the final video which shows the disassembly and fix.
They should be on the rear axle. I pulled my video and reposted it with updated info once Harry told me what his looked like.
that is what fixed YOUR engine on YOUR specific track. Others have already reported that solution did not work so well on other mfr.’s track……This is not a one size fixes all solution…….
Pat
