Sunset 3rd Rail considering S scale Erie S3/S4 Berkshire project

This seems like really good news that another manufacturer is willing to invest in S scale.  Scott has a pretty extensive catalog of engines that he has built in O and it would be nice to see somthing like the S class berkshires be brought over.

why not do the NKP Berks? Wouldnt that be a better way to go for sales? I would like a #759 NKP myself. Al

I would suspect it's because the Erie Berk is in the planning stages (there's some CAD drawings of it on their web site) and an NKP Berk's not on 3rd Rail's radar right now.

Rusty

Not only that, but there are several of us who would really like to see the Erie S class berkshires made in S and are trying to gererate support that will convince Scott Mann to make them.  I would say if it goes well, you may see other prototypes that Scott has done in O be offered in S going forward.  IMO, this is one guy with both Sunset and Golden Gate Depot brands that could make some really nice stuff in S that has never been done before.

Right you are Rich. Scott is getting ready to go into production on the O scale S3/S4 Erie Berks. That's why I approached him about an S scale version.

I really get the impression that Scott would like to get back into S scale, but so far he hasn't received the support for the SP Pacific. I suggested that perhaps trying a different prototype might be a good way to gauge interest. Scott agreed. So here we are. Time will tell if the S scale community will get behind this product or not. I fear that if they don't we may not see anything else from Sunset. I am ready to reserve a pair myself if we can get this project off of the ground.

I don't think it's the S Scale community not wanting to get behind a product, just that the economy is bad for a lot of people right now. I have an SP 0-6-0 on reservation with River Raisin but I got a letter about a month ago stating it doesn't yet have enough interest to go forward. I'm still hoping but not holding my breath. It would be a great locomotive for a small layout.

Cheers,

Ken

I'm sorry, but I have to disagree with you Ken.

First of all, according to the latest numbers I have seen unemployment is in the single digits. The way I see it that means 90%+ are employed. Secondly, The Lionel AF products are selling well. I personally would rather have a Sunset Berk than a scaleified  Lionel  Y3, but that's just me. 

Brass importers in O and HO are not having any problems getting reservations for their projects. Example: Sunset/3rd Rail is making more new product now than at any time in recent memory.

So with all due respect, I do think that if this project, the Sunset SP Pacific, the RR SP 0-6-0, and the RR C&O Pacific don't get off the ground it has everything to do with the S scale community. RR couldn't even get enough pre-orders for an N&W J...

I am optimistic as I would really like to see it happen. But if it doesn't, I will be ordering Scott's O scale version.

Regards,

Jonathan

I can agree with you at some point, the S Scale community is responsible for the success and failure of any project aimed at them.   I'll admit, the J not getting enough reservations was a surprise, I thought if anything that would've been a slam-dunk.

But, let's not also forget, River Raisin locos are more expensive than 3rd-Rail.  The RR SP 4-8-2 was around $2200, the 3rd-Rail O model was around $1500.  RR's C&O 4-6-2 is $2100, the proposed 3rd-Rail S SP 4-6-2, $1500.

In defense of the scale side of S, it is a pretty small contingent, much less than Flyer, probably less than 2-rail O Scale, way less than 3-rail O in all it's forms.

The scale side had pretty much lived in a bubble of it's own making for as long as I've been in S and I'd be the first to admit that's got to change. 

And it is, ever so slightly.  It hasn't been easy. 

The funny thing is most of the buzz about the Y3 has been on S Scale Yahoo, even befor the scale wheel conversion was announced.  A far cry from the drubbing I took when I introduced the Challenger and it's possibilities to them. 

The Y3 barely got a mention on S-Trains, Modern Flyer--crickets.

Unfortunately, 3rd-Rail has guilt by association with many S Scalers because of the old Sunset Models. 

I know 3rd-Rail products are far superior than the old Sunset, but it's a hard job to change the collective memory of the mechanical issues that plagued the Sunset Big Boy and Challenger models.

It's chicken and egg with 3rd-Rail.  The S Scalers will be reluctant to reserve until they see an S loco from 3rd-Rail and 3rd-Rail won't produce on unless S Scalers reserve.  And most S Scalers won't be convinced seeing an O scale model up close, it's that bubble thing again...

Rusty

And I to can agree with most of what you are saying Rusty.

I don't think the cost of RR matters really though. The HO and O scale communities don't have a problem pre-ordering models that cost much more than RR. If you compare RR to Glacier Park HO (both built by Boo Rim) then RR looks like a bargain.

Perhaps it is all to do with the size of the community? Even if the same percentage of S scalers would buy as in HO or O, the sheer size difference may dictate that there won't be enough pre-orders to launch a new project in S.

The issue of dislike of Sunset is something that the community will either get over or not. I agree with your chicken or egg assessment.

The thing that drives me crazy about the Yahoo group is that 2 years ago when I got started in S I went there all bright eyed and willing to help and volunteer. I used some info and connections with Lionel and MTH to try to start discussions over there about new products from those companies. I was basically told to get out and never talk about those companies again on their forum. Now the bulk of discussions is on MTH and Lionel.

I am hopeful that there are enough people willing to give Sunset a try and get this Berk made. If not, then I'm not sure what Sunset or RR could do to get people to pre-order in the future.

Fingers crossed...

Funny, isn't it???

There's been a hard core of Uber-modelers over there that believe the growth of the scale is by rivet-counting and attracting like minded folks from other scales.

I think the Uber's are beginning to leave the group or run silent for now.

I happen to think the growth in S will come from the average modeler, be they scale, hirail or even Flyer.  I've observed how O Gauge has come out of the collecting shadow over the past 20 some odd years and become the realm of operators and modelers. 

I like to point out to S Scalers that some of the 3-rail scale folks are just as good as any other scale modeler and many times you don't even notice the third rail.

And I'm pretty sure even 2-rail O scale has benefitted from this influx of people, just as I'm sure there's also some sour grapes as the 3-rail world seems more popular than the 2-rail world.

I'm anticipating something similar happening in S, if Lionel and MTH reach their full S potential.  It just may take a while.

Rusty

Rusty

Has the Sunset 3rd Rail Erie Berkshire project been mentioned on the S scale yahoo group?  I don't recall seeing it.  I know the SP Pacific got a small mention and little or no cheer leading for the project.  Has Scott said how many more reservations he needs for the Pacific project to proceed?

Greg

Yes Greg,

I posted over there a few days ago (post#93850) and I have yet to see anyone so much as reply to it.

I personally know where 4 pre-orders would come from. Other than that I don't know how far off he is. I proposed the idea to Scott this week and his comment was "it can't hurt". I would guess that if he gets enough response he would "officially" announce the project.

Scott seems very willing to do S scale models, but as Rusty pointed out the community may still harbor bad feelings. It is too bad really. You don't see Lionel customers not buying because of the junk that they put out 20 years ago. Sunset is making very nice, quality products these days. It will be a shame if they never get back into S.

 So Scott was going to do a N&W J class? I never heard anything about it. I would be interested in one. Also a Y6b and A class. Al

No, River Raisin had announced one and never got enough interest.

I posted the Erie Berk info over on the S Scale Sig forum.

www.http://sscale.org/ 

The forum there is members only.  Maybe there will be a nibble or two.

Rusty

I would be in for an S-4, for sure! Would be nice to eventually see the Erie K-5 with the larger tender to go along with it.

Thanks Rich

Hi Bud,

If you are interested please let Scott Mann know.

I totally agree on the K5 by the way! One at a time though :-)

Regards,
Jonathan


Well, there's employed then there's the economy My wife and I thankfully both still have our jobs, but our wages are down quite a bit from just a couple of years ago. Besides less take home pay, gasoline and food costs are quite a bit more than they were. Not complaining, just stating what our reality is...

Having said that, I did send in a deposit on an SP 0-6-0 last year. I was disappointed to receive a flyer from Dan stating the project might not go forward due to lack of reservations. Like you, I remain optimistic If it doesn't go though, it's not going to make me switch to O Scale.

Cheers,
Ken

Jonathan,

I have to agree, too bad the sour grapes keep him from getting enough interest now.  The list of what might have been offered in brass is quite big and will get bigger I'm afraid. 

Greg

Though not in my realm of purchasing interest, that Erie Berk is one burly looking monster.

As for the Uber guys:  They've pretty much had their day and their way with things S. Time for new blood and new directions.

Andre

>> I posted the Erie Berk info over on the S Scale Sig forum.

>> www.http://sscale.org/

> The forum there is members only.

The S SIG is open to everyone.  There is no need to belong to the NMRA or the NASG or any other group such as Vegetarians of America.  Membership is free.  The only thing necessary is to join up with your real name and a password.  Not hard to do at all.  The emphasis is on S scale modeling and excludes AF trains except for discussing how to convert them to scale.  Might be worth a looksee for some on this forum. 

Cheers...Ed Loizeaux

Hi Ed! 

Welcome to the S expeditionary outpost in the land of O.  I'll admit, it's mostly Flyer brethren over here, but we get along pretty well.

My bad, I should have added how easy it was to join the S Scale SIG.

Rusty

Okay... I want to recant on my rather harsh sounding opinion above.  I've given this more thought instead of just impulsively typing. (Imagine that.)

Here' goes:

IMHO, us somewhat recent, or new, entrants to S scale owe a lot to those that have been in S scale a long time.  Frankly, if it weren't for many of them, we would not have what we have in S.  Pure and simple.

Unfortunately, time doesn't stop for anyone, and many of the "movers and shakers" in S are aging.  In regards to "new blood": Perhaps it is time for others to step up to the plate and help push the scale forward?

Andre

You should have heard some of the attitudes 10-15 years ago...

I think the new blood is beginning to flow, Andre.  It's not a hearty transfusion, but it is beginning to occur.

Once MTH gets up and running, along with Lionel's new efforts in S should help to push things along.  As I've mentioned elsewhere, it just may take a while. 

One thing being in S has taught me is patience.  I've been waiting 2+ years for PBL's standard gauge Shay to finally appear and with luck it may finally show up on my doorstep around April-May.

But, back to 3rd-Rail's Berkshire announcement. 

I hope there's enough Erie fans out there in S to make the project a go.  It may seem a somewhat eclectic choice, but I think I understand why 3rd-Rail chose this model.  Perhaps there's enough east coast modelers in S who "interchange" with the Erie to make it happen.

I will also add that 3rd-Rail's been holding open reservations for SP P8 and P10 Pacific's for going on 3 years now.  I wonder if all the SP guys got tapped out by River Raisin with their SP 4-8-2's, 2-8-2's and 2-10-2's...

Rusty

I'm thinking of reserving one of the P8's, but the thing that kind of holds me back is that it's mainly a passenger engine and I'm not really into passenger trains. If they'd do their M6 or M9 in S Scale I'd be in for sure.

Cheers,

Ken

Slight OT content:

"glockr"...

Can't help but notice the nickname.  I've got a Glock G26 on order.  Looking forward to receiving it and trying it out.  If it's anything like my S&W M&P 40c... I'll really like it.

Andre

     The O&S West in meet in January is over and done. I saw Scott at the SUNSET table but there was no mention of any NEW product in S, how odd!!!! The big talk on Friday afternoon and Saturday was all about the Y-3 and the Challenger by Lionel, and now the hot topic is the Lionel Mikado among some of the s Scale guys.

    The main driving force behind this is SSL&S and their; "Conversion to Scale" program for the scale guys.  Videos should be available soon of the Y-3 on a highly detailed S Scale layout.

     -Glock M22-

The other Rusty on the West Coast

Rustermier,  just an FYI, that Jon talked with Scott Mann personally about the potential of getting the S class berkshires made in S simply because he really likes the Erie and was curious about the potential of using the R&D Scott is using for the O scale version and see if it opened up other oppotunities for getting something done in S.  IMO, if someone wanted to see something else and had the ability to network throughout the S scale community, I think Scott would be open to considering it for S.   Jon chose the Erie berk becasue he liked it and also had the ambition to ask Scott that if there was enough interest would he make it.

Over the years, Sunset Models has stated a willingness to import many different S scale models if enough interest is shown.  While that sounds like good news, it is not really news at all.  The problem is that neither Sunset nor 3rd Rail ever makes any serious effort to advertise or market a specific project in S scale.  Lots of other people say "Sunset this" and "Sunset that", but I never hear anything from Mr. Sunset himself  -  father or son.  Not having anything like a poster or a handout at the recent O SCALE WEST + S convention is exactly the kind of inaction I am talking about.  My opinion, worth what you paid for it, is that until Sunset and/or 3rd Rail takes an active part in marketing their own products, they will never get "enough interest" (whatever that means?).  The S market does exist, but it has to be spoken to in a serious manner.  Floating rumors through other people via online forums will not cut the mustard.  In essence, what Mr. Mann is saying is something akin to "you bring me the orders and I'll make what you want."   So which of us is going to rustle up 150 orders with deposits and hand it off to Sunset?  Will the true volunteer please stand up?  Good luck....Ed Loizeaux

Ed, I think you are being a bit unfair to Scott Mann.  This response only demonstrates some of the negative feelings that long-time S scalers seem to have towards Sunset.  First, let me point out that Sunset has kept the P class pacifics on their site for almost 2 1/2 - 3 years now.  When you consider that there is no Brass importer that currently builds a run of anything without reservations, I do not think it is fair to hold this solely against Scott. 

Second, Sunset is not asking for any type of deposit for the P class pacifics and in almost 15 years of buying their O scale locomotives, I never had to put a deposit on them either.  In case anyone doubt what I'm saying, here is a link to Sunset's own web site for the pacifics and you can see for yourself:

http://www.3rdrail.com/s_scale.html

IMO, I think Scott is making a very good offer to build either the P class pacifics, the Erie berks or anything else with only reservations and no up-front money at all. As far as I know, he is the only brass importer in any scale that does this.  When you say "In essence, what Mr. Mann is saying is something akin to "you bring me the orders and I'll make what you want", please differentiate this from almost any other train manufacturer, especially one that imports brass.  This is the same model for Overland, River Raisin, Kohs, Precision Scale, Key Imports, Division Point Models and also Glacier Park. They all require reservations and deposits.  Only the real large manufacturers like Lionel even attempt to bring something to market without pre-orders.

Third, Let's just be fact-based here and note the posting date for this thread as 1/30/2013 and O scale West was up through the weekend of the 26th.  To my knowledge, Jon asked Scott about the possibility of making the berkshires AFTER Scott returned from O Scale West. 

Lastly, in regards to your comment about "Floating rumors through other people via online forums will not cut the mustard...So which of us is going to rustle up 150 orders with deposits and hand it off to Sunset?  Will the true volunteer please stand up?"  That volunteer in this case was me.  I personally contacted the representative of every S scale club listed on the NASG directory that was located in a state that the Erie railroad ran through.  I sent them a brief, freindly E-mail describing what this project was, why it was being considered and what was needed.  I also signed my own name at the bottom so everyone would know exactly who was contacting them.   The intent was to try and generate interest, not "float rumors" and it seemed like an interesting project. Personally, I do not even model the Erie, Jon does, but I offered to help him since he is my friend and I thought it would be nice to see this locomotive be made. 

Good Day,

Any updates on this project?

Regards,

Frank

Dead. Never got off the ground. No where near the amount of interest Scott needs. Apparently if you want to make models in S scale you have to approach the S scale community in the precise way that they want to be approached. I did my little bit to try.

I wish there was more available for someone starting in S. I would have stuck with it if there was. I am sick of beating my head against a wall though so I've gone back to 2-Rail O. I will be purchasing Scott's O scale versions of this fantastic steam engine. If someone else wants to take this torch and run with it be my guest.

Let's see now, make an announcement on the OGR board, rely totally on word of mouth to spread the news, nothing in the S Gaugian, nothing in the NASG dispatch, no direct contact to the Yahoo boards, nothing on the NASG website, nothing on S Scale.org, no outreach at S Fests, S Sprees, NASG conventions.

Yep, blame the S Scalers, it's ALL our fault.  Shame on us...  Riiiiight.

Or, could it be there was just very little interest in an Erie Berkshire in S? 

Sometimes, the interest just is not there.

Examples: You'd have thought River Raisin would've had a slam-dunk with an N&W J, but there wasn't enough interest and was likewise cancelled.  River Raisin also wound up cancelling about a third of their USRA 0-6-0 roadnames due to lack of interest. 

The now departed SouthWind Models couldn't get enough interest for a Russian Decapod.

American Models couldn't get 100 reservations for a full scale length California Zephyr back around the turn of the century.

So, the poor old little Erie Berkshire isn't the only product that didn't see the light of day.

Folks relatively new to S fail to realized that there aren't that many S Scalers/Gaugers to support products when compared to O.

Rusty

I think you should check your facts before you start laying it on so thick Rich.

You know for a FACT that it was posted on the S scale SIG because YOU are the one that copied this post there and you even mention that in a post above!

And here is YOUR quote from the S scale SIG forum:

"3rd Rail is once again trying to reach out to the S Scaler.  While Scott Mann is the son of the old Sunset Model proprietor, Mort Mann, 3rd Rail is not like the old Sunset Models and has developed a very good reputation in the O Scale/O Hirail world.
I own two 3rd-Rail O Scale locomotives and am very satisfied with the quality."

It was indeed posted on the Yahoo group as well. Post#93850 if you care to look it up.

Let me see, there has been 1 S Fest and 0 S Sprees or NASG conventions since this project died. I can't fault Scott for not spending advertising dollars on this project. Why would he? It was my idea. He is more than willing to build ANYTHING that the S scale community will get behind. So while you may want to be a sarcastic snob and poo-poo on my Erie Berk idea at least I got off my rump and tried to do something for the community. I haven't seen you reach out to many companies lately.

The point is that I took the initiative and Scott responded. But the negative feedback that I received from the community blew me away. I lost track of how many people either just will not give Sunset another chance, or had a problem because it wasn't advertised in a magazine.  Really? Who gives a flip if it is in a magazine? How does that make it more or less valid? They obviously haven't purchased much from Lionel or MTH in the past if they think that putting it in print somehow guarantees that it will be made. But I thought that was part of the allure of S... that you had relationships with these companies and it was more personal. It doesn't get much more personal than reaching out to the 3 main S scale community forums.

So let's recap shall we? It was posted here, on Yahoo, and on the S scale SIG. Perhaps I should have gone door to door with a petition? If there would have been any kind of real interest I'm sure Scott would have at least put it up on his website to take pre-orders (Like he has been for 5 yrs. on the SP Pacific).

I find it unfortunate, but all to expected to hear you say "the poor little Erie Berkshire". That has pretty much been my experience in S over the last few years. A bunch of guys that have been in this for decades that only care about what they want. I have been made to feel anything but welcome. I was BLASTED for mentioning Lionel, MTH, and Sunset on Yahoo. Now all they talk about is Lionel and MTH. Due to something that happened decades ago at Sunset I took on their stigmata merely by mentioning their name. Way to support the guy doing the leg work S scale community!

If newbies to S fail to realize how small S is, then I think it is fair to say that Old-Hats in S fail to realize how insular and pompous they have become. 

River Raisin is top notch. Dan is the only hope that any S scale modeler has to get anything done in high quality that they really want. I suggest the community get (and stay) behind Dan. Lionel is going to force you to buy what they make. It is amazing to see how far John Z has brought them, but that is their M.O. and MTH is still up in the air.

I wish you guys the best. I sincerely hope that it works out for you.

PS. Please enlighten me as to what the difference is between tweaking a brass engine to make it run well and having to send a new Y3 out to have scale wheels installed? Neither accomplish what you want out of the box. I don't see that as a valid argument. I'm fairly certain that every company that has imported S scale brass has had varying degrees of success and failure as far as running qualities are concerned. That is hardly a unique attribute to Sunset.

So............I guess to Jon's point, S scalers are very precise in how they want to be approached

OK.  I'll admit I forgot about my cross postings, so shoot me. 

But, it once again points out the fallacy about relying on word of mouth advertising, particularly if one is trying to reach out a new audience.  Especially, if there is a perception (wrongly or rightly) among that audience of poor quality based on the "sins of the father," so to speak.

Note: I am extremely happy with my 3rd rail CB&Q Northern and Hudson, and am perfectly willing to tell others about them, so don't try to corner me on that count.

You got blasted on Yahoo for mentioning Lionel, MTH and 3rd Rail?  Well so did I.  I was practically excommunicated.  I still have the scars on my backside to prove it.  I practically got run off for posting a link with pictures of the Challenger posed on my layout.  Took heat for both the U33C's and SD70's over there.  I was even accused of being a paid mouthpiece/lapdog for OGR and attempting to build a media empire over there and convert folk to O.  Cry me a river....

Insular?  No arguement there.  Pompus?  Also no argument.  I've been trying to convince S Scalers to look outside the S scale bubble and see what's going on in the outside world since 1985.  It has been changing, but very slowly.  Unfortunately, there's still some stuck in the "Scratchbuilders Scale" mindset.

As far as the Y3 goes.  A person wishing to have one on his scale railroad KNOWS up front he's going to have to send it off to be reflanged and reprogrammed.  He also KNOWS it WILL run when it comes back from conversion. 

When one spends a similar amount on a brass model and HAS to continually tweek it to GET it to run, that's an entirely different matter.

Rusty