Sunset 3rd Rail SF 2-10-4 5032

Man that thing needs it's own zip code...  A great looking model.

We need a video of that thing so we can hear it

hello audidriven........

That engine #5032 looks like the size of the big boy !!!!!!!!!   Is the engine heavy and how do you pick up or handle a engine this size, like taking it out of the box, turning it upside down and set it on Bowser cradle to oil the axles bearings and checking the gear box for lube with out bending the fine details or breaking them off ?

From the looks of it, it cannot go on 0-72 or can it ? 

I can't wait to pick up my #5011 in Nov.  

THANK YOU for the photos 

the woman who loves toy trains

Tiffany

One of these days I'll work on a video.

Tiffany, this is a heavy engine for sure.  I always lift my engines by the cylinders and cab roof or under the cab.  Vary rarely will I just pick it up by the sides above the drivers, although I have seen others do that.  You need to know how sturdy and secure the parts are before doing that so I don't recommend it.  

I roll it very carefully on foam and hold the trucks to keep them flopping around and chipping the paint.  Just be careful.

The engine is designed for O-72 curves, but mine wasn't liking them on Saturday.  A friend mentioned that you need to ensure the drivers are all level, which I'll need to check when I have time.  

I hope you enjoy yours. 

Hello audidriven........

From the looks of your #5032, i am very sure that i will love mine  but was not used to the huge size of it LOL.  Is the driver axles sprung ?  I had H.O. scale PFM unpainted brass version of this type back in 1980's and still had to be careful of handling it.  The H.O. scale version needed 40 inch radius curves with the main driver (middle) flanged to run well.  Your #5032 is #1 

the woman who loves toy trains

Tiffany 

Tiffany - Before 3rd Rail sends you the engine, make sure 3rd Rail "unsprings" the drivers.  That was a problem with those engines.  On 0-72 track and a bit above, the drivers will drop down and cause problems.  Scott came out with a modification that cures the problem.

audidriven it's nice to see you brought some class to the Central Connecting Railroad!  I would like to have heard your engine!

Uh oh Tiffany! You made sure the casting wouldn't crumble
and the gearbox was good, but you forgot about the "unsprung driver"problem

You said it was "loud", but did it reproduce the bass notes that make real engines some much fun to listen to?

Well the bass is definitely greater as it's a larger driver and I sealed all of the openings to make it as close to air tight as I could, while still allowing the wires to pass through.  In addition, I lined the shell with sound deadening material.  I guess all I have left to do now is to remove some springs from the drivers.  

Nick,

You shouldn't just remove the springs from your 2-10-4. I had a similar issue with my C&O T-1 2-10-4, and after discussing the issue with Scott, he sent me some VERY small black plastic "plugs". You insert the little plugs in place of the springs, or maybe into the spring, which limits how far the driver axle can move up into the frame. 

I suggest you contact Sunset/3rd Rail tomorrow and discuss the situation with them, and they'll send you the "plug kit". That should solve the problem, and we'll try running it again.

You shouldn't just remove the springs from your 2-10-4. I had a similar issue with my C&O T-1 2-10-4, and after discussing the issue with Scott, he sent me some VERY small black plastic "plugs". You insert the little plugs in place of the springs, or maybe into the spring, which limits how far the driver axle can move up into the frame.

That is the fix I was posting about.  That is the way to fix the problem.

I had the derailment problem on my Sunset J1a (still one of my favorite engines) when the lead driver's springs would drop the height of the engine so much that on O-88 curves the blind middle driver would fall below the rail head, when it hit the straight, the middle driver, now off the rail, couldn't get back on and would derail. I used the plastic plugs only on the forward axle to keep the engine level even on curves and the problem was solved. Problem is the engine is heavier than the spring rates selected. When all five drivers are supporting the engine, no problemo. But on a curve when the middle driver actually floats out over empty space, AND no longer supporting its share of the engine's weight, the engine would droop. A ten-coupled engine with 63" drivers requires a huge turning radius.

The real engine was made with blind center drivers when first built (like the model) and had lateral motion devices to permit the middle axles to slide sideways to adjust for tighter turns. When they refit tires on the engines they went back to a flanged drivers. I guess they figured that the Pennsy had sufficiently wide curves to handle the engine. Of course, this engine and other long wheel-based beasts like the T-1s, S-1, and Q's, all ran on the Western end. People in Philly never got a chance to see these engines in action.

A Baldwin Centipede actually got stuck on the Zoo curve in West Philly. It was a mess and tied up the main line. Baldwin, unfortunately, made diesel engines like their steam engines with big, unbending, monster castings on their under frames and GM didn't. GM won!

Thanks Hot Water and Marker.  I guess I was confused by the "unsprung" comment, but now I know.  My thoughts were the issue just described about the springs not supporting the weight once a set of drivers swung off the rails.

Tiffany, you really want to make sure Scott has your engine checked to confirm it us up to snuff.  I have another friend that said his frame was bent on his and wasn't fixed by the plugs. 

As luck would have it, my Legacy controller stopped working and won't even turn on.  So much for testing my engine any further. 

hello guys and gals.........

Those plastic plugs........ seems like a good idea for those running less than 0-100.  I am glad you guys talked about it as i will have to put them in my #5021 when i go pick it up in Nov. as i didn't know that it is a problem but now i know.   Is there anything else i should know about little fixes before running the engine ?   I am planned to run it on railking real traxx as that the track i have for now but will purchases 0-82 curves, the widest MTH has for the track i already have.  When my husband and i purchase a home sometime next fall, I am planning to switch to Atlas "O" track and wondering what's the min. radius can use to run the #5021 ?   Atlas makes 0-72,0-80,0-90,0-99(if i am correct) and 0-108 curves and the room space is about 15 by 20 foot.

the woman who loves toy trains

Tiffany 

hello guys and gals.........

will the Sunset 3rd santa fe 2-10-4 run ok on 0-82 real trax ?

the woman who loves toy trains

Tiffany

Yes, I run my 3rd rail big boy on 072, abit of an overhang it looks better on 081 or 090

It is a huge engine.

I have an extra set also, since they included an extra with traction tires. I don't think I need any more. A few years ago, I published a thread on what happens when my two-year-old (at the time) grandson, reached out and grabbed the J1 as it passed by. I was holding him in my arms at the time and he did it so fast I couldn't react. The result: The 11 pound monster came down into my leg and then straight to the concrete floor. Result: head light assembly smashed, front left steps bent, and rear of the cab separated from the lower plate.

I ordered a new head light from PSC, reshaped the steps, epoxied the rear plate and repainted the chipped paint. Came out okay. Jack is now 8 and treats trains very carefully. 

Before:

After:

I have each version of 3rd Rails ATSF 5000 class engines and only 1 of them have had issues with the drivers dropping down on 072 curves.   I put small shims on the front and rear drivers that resolved the issue and kept the very nice feature of sprung drivers and still maintains track contact for all drivers.

3rd Rail has little nubs that you can replace the springs with that basically removes the sprung driver effect and makes them all fixed.   Personally I like keeping them sprung.   Just seems more "real" to me.  :-)

Yes.

 It was only O72 and sharper that created enough center hang that the middle drivers ended up floating over the ties.   On O81 and broader the drivers stay in contact with the rail at all times.

There are modifications. One of my (2) Sunset models is a Pennsy I1 decapod, 2-10-0. Much smaller drivers, but the 1st and 4th set of drivers are flanged. I had discussion with someone about moving the flange set on the I1 to the 3rd set of drivers. Pictures above show the 1st and 5th set of drivers to be flanged on the 2-10-4.   Makes quite a difference as to how it negotiates curves.  Those in the know, may be able to tell you whether you can switch the flanged drivers on your 2-10-4, or with a trailing (4) wheel truck, whether it would work or not.

I also have an MTH Russian Decapod that easily does Atlas O-45 curves.  A Russian Decapod is a relatively small locomotive.

Best wishes on your beautiful new locomotive

Mike

hello guys and gals.........

Why does Santa Fe steam locomotives have the insides of the bells painted red ?

the woman who loves toy trains

Tiffany 

There are several stories about this but I personally feel it was for a visual que...when a bell would swing that red would sure catch your eye quickly.  Now why it was done on bells that did not swing?....A throw back....tradition...not sure.  Again just my 2 cents. 

Take a peek at this photo....stands out against the smoke box. http://www.godfatherrails.com/photos/pv.asp?pid=510

Hello kanawha............

I sent you a 2ND reply........ today and hope to hear from you soon. 

I am glad you are able to use the driver sets as i said before they are new.

the woman who loves toy trains

Tiffany

That thing has some serious speakers, must sound incredible!

Hello audidriven.........

What transformer do you use to operate your S.F. # 5032 ?  I am getting a Z4000 for to run mine #5021 

the woman who loves the S.F.#5011

Tiffany

Hello Tiffany.  I actually run mine with a Legacy controller through a TPC400 and a  Lionel 180 watt power brick.   The Z4000 is a great choice though.  

By the way, I saw that you were asking people about painting the wheels black.   I used Floquil Engine Black on mine, which you can see in the photos at the beginning of this post.  I normally airbrush even the smallest areas, but this paint flows so well that I could achieve a flawless finish by spinning the wheels while holding the brush to them.  

Please post some photos when you finish it.

hello audidriven............

yeah, that was me that was asking folks about it .  I have tried black hobby paint and blacken stuff on the lionel# 6-18010 scale turbine back in 1993 and the paint didn't stick too well then the blacken stuff which made the rims or tires rusted and pretty much ruined the wheel rims or tires so i gave up on it.   All i wanted to do was to darken the rims of the Sunset 3rd Santa Fe 2-10-4 which i am to pick up in a week from today. Will gun metal blue work with a Q-tip ?

the woman who loves the S.F.#5021

Tiffany

As I have already posted on MANY of your other posts pertaining to the same question, just paint them with Scalecoat Loco Black!

I'm with Hot Water on this one.   We both paint our wheels without issue.  I would suggest you use one of the paints we use.   I can't imagine that the blueing would look that good even if it did take.  Just my opinion.   

Without scanning all the previous posts, and hoping to offend no one, may I suggest those neat felt tip pens?  I keep a "Testors" flat black at the workbench, and in a heartbeat can touch up almost anything.  To do rims, just get the thing going and touch the rims as the drivers rotate.

I rely on Scalecoat, but for very small jobs sometimes easier is better.

quote:

Why does Santa Fe steam locomotives have the insides of the bells painted red ?

Tiffany,

It wasn't just the SF that painted the inside of their bells red. The N&W did it and I imagine many others did too.

I don't know why either, but I like it so I painted the inside of my 3rd Rail's H-8 Allegheny's red. It may be so you could see it swinging as another warning indicator. Pennsy buried the bells on their later monsters under the streamlining around the pilot. 

As others have commented since this posting, other railroads also painted the inside of the bell, often red.  This would be a good Challenge question for the ATSF Historical Society's Warbonnet publication.

While I cannot offer any factual standards data to support the idea, it may have been an effort to simplify the spit-n-polish maintenance of the steam engine's bling.  In other words, the bells were cast brass.  Polishing the brass was part of the bling-thing of the day.  However, polishing the INSIDE of the bell, rather heavy to cant into a polishing position, would have been a PITA for the hoggers and helpers.  So, to avoid the poor flash-swinging appearance of brass oxidation (a.k.a. tarnish), a slather of durable paint now and then would be simpler, I would think.  As for the color, red sounds good and nicely complements the polished brass of the bell exterior, dontcha think?  Maybe the lead-laden red of the day had a magical durability, too, against the beating it took from the clapper??  Dunno. 

As with any of these trivial pursuits, the questions should have been asked and the answers better documented in a day when the knowledgeable folks were around.  It's sort of like my Mom's chicken and noodles....I can still taste it, I'd kill for another batch. it was, after all and as they say, to die for.  But Mom's been gone 30 years and the knowledge/recipe/a-little-of-this-and-a-little-of-that with her.  (sigh)

Meanwhile, back at the ranch...

KD

Hello guys and gals.......

I think Pennsy painted their inside bells red too........

the woman who loves the S.F.#5011

Tiffany

While this is diverting the discussion, my mom once tried to learn how my grandmother baked her fabulous strudel. She decided to watch her actually do it and capture the exact recipe... impossible. She would use one size juice glass for one ingredient and another size for another, and then a pinch of this or that. Without calibrating all those various weights and measures to a known scale, the recipe was impossible to follow and the strudel died with her... Sad but true. I've been capturing all of my wife's good stuff on the computer with standardized measures so it can be shared, and shared it has been. I'm teaching my grandson how to build scale models and trying to give him reproducible skills and techniques so it can be passed down through the generations.

For my consulting practice I work with companies to capture their processes and held them devise ways to make them better. The first thing you have to do is get people to the point where they are actually thinking about what they do and why. Only then can you make the changes needed to make things better.

I have a real PRR locomotive bell - there is no sign of any paint ever being anywhere on the brass bell.  The cast iron bell hanger was painted the same color as the boiler.

Ed Rappe

hello guys and gals.........

How good are those Pittman motors used in the Sunset 3rd locomotives ? I would like to learn more about them as if they use 5 pole armanture or is it 7 poles?  I think Sunset uses #9000 type Pittmans.  I just wondering. 

the woman who loves the S.F.#5011

Tiffany

The Pittman 8000 and 9000 motors are good.  Sunset uses Pittman 9000 motors on their large steam engines.  They have good torque and I think have 7 poles.  I have a Big Boy, Z-5 Yellowstone, DM&IR Yellowstone, Z-6 Challenger, VA 2-10-10-2, B&O Em-1, ATSF 2-10-4.  On it's GG1, Sunset unfortunately used Mabuchi motors.  They are adequate but noisy and not as smooth running.  I have your 5032 and it effortlessly pulls 35 mixed freight cars up a 1% grade-a monster of an engine and built as solid as they come, like the old KTMs.