Sunset FTs arrive

From your comment: 

First, There is a drawbar and a tether so neither the A or B can operate independently. 

 

The SUNSET FT's are correctly made like the prototype with drawbar connected A-B sets.

 

A very good description here:  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EMD_FT

 

"FTs were generally marketed as semi-permanently coupled A-B sets (a lead unit and a cabless booster connected by a solid drawbar) making a single locomotive of 2,700 hp (2,000 kW). Many railroads used pairs of these sets back to back to make up a four-unit A-B-B-A locomotive rated at 5,400 hp (4,000 kW)." 

 

From the article Erie bought 12 A's and 12 B's.

 

cheers, ray

Yes. I get that now. I was unaware that was the case as I thought I read that they would each have their own couplers and decoders. Not a bash on the model, but if I would have realized that I might have reconsidered and just waited on the F7s.

 

Other thoughts:

 

-The B unit is louder than the A. The horn sounds like it comes form the B. Perhaps can be changed with CV settings?

-If you want the single chime horn you will have to change it each time you power it up. It always starts wit the default horn. Again, perhaps a CV will change this?

-At least out of the box these don't run any smoother than any China drive F unit that I've run.

-My HO and N scale engines run much smoother out of the box. Maybe after break-in?

 

They are solid models and I'm a big Sunset fan, but if I would have walked into a store and saw/run these units in person first, I'm not sure I would have walked out with them. I think I would have been happier to buy the Key models at twice the price.

 

Santa Fe and one other road bought them as separable A-B units. The ATSF's had a hostler cab in the B-units. I know Sunset included the hostler cab and extra porthole on those, but I don't know if they operate separately.

 

Nice sound and video, by the way.

Santa Fe wouldn't even order them unless they had couplers, they wanted nothing to do with those drawbars.

 

edit.... doh! you beat me to the punch Matt

 

3rd Rail listed the B units as "slaves" on their brochure and order form

Hence the problem. I didn't order them... These were made available because someone didn't honor their pre-order so I grabbed them.

 

Yet another reason I don't like BTO or sight unseen.

I watched both videos, well done test & sounds.

I recently ordered an HO scale Peter Witt trolley, and when I received it in the mail and tested in I was mildly disappointed. I felt bad about blowing $50.00 on something that didn't wow me.

 

Having that feeling on a thousand dollar purchase would really bum me out....

 

 

Jeff C

I am not positive, but I don't think these have the EMD 567 Q3 Titan emulator sound files loaded from the factory which is puzzling.

 

You hit the nail on the head Jeff... I haven't really been blown away for the price I guess. I'll spend more time running them and see if that changes anything.

For 2-rail the A units will run fine all by themselves but the B units will not run by themselves.  People who ordered A-A or A-B-B are having their units modified to run correctly.

 

It was not possible to have a coupler between the A and the B without having them ridiculously far apart.  The only units delivered from GM with couplers between the A and B were ATSF and DRGW (of the roads done) and the couplers were unique due to the non existent shank.  If you want to try and add couplers good luck with that.

 

If there are no stirrups at the back end of the A and B units then the units were connected by drawbars anyway.

 

The E7s had the windows painted out.  Scott received a lot of flak about it(in 2-rail at least).  So windows will be clear now.  It is easier to paint them than to remove the paint if you want them painted.

Hello jonnyspeed......

 

I see the pictures of the interior of your new FT diesel but cannot help and see that the engineer is looking at the "red" steering wheel on the left side ?

 

the woman who loves the S.F.5011,2678,2003,200

Tiffany

I believe the Key units are running above 2K per unit and being prototypically correct you would get a drawbar between A & B units, I suspect based on detailed ends the radius required would be well above what you are finding here.

Have you looked at the "short box" Kadees?    The box is about 1/2 the length of the regular ones.    Also you could consider modifying a Kadee by making the shank solid with an insert, filing off the tab on the bottom for centering, and drilling a hole to match the screw mounting the drawbar.   It would not center but would couple fine and uncouple.   I do that with the front of brass steamers a lot.

 

Also, I have both the FP7 and the E7s and in both cases, changing the horn or any other CV stays permanent after I shut down.    Every thing is still set when I start up.   the E7s have been programmed for over a year and have not changed and the RR has been powered up many times.    I do use DCC however.  

 

Finally, Tiffany, that guy in front of the red "steering" wheel is sitting on the fireman's side.    The engineer would be on the other side of the cab.

Tiffany, thats the hand brake. Thats where it was on those units.

Jonnyspeed,

 

The OEM and aftermarket Titan Magnum decoders have two 8 ohm 2 watt speaker outputs.  QSI CV Manager makes it relatively easy to balance the sound just like with a mixer board in a sound studio.  Assuming Scott used both speaker channels. 

 

For example I have a QSI Q3 ET Titan Magnum in my Sunset UP 844 steam engine with one speaker in the boiler and two in the tender.  I can easily play with mixing the amplitude between the engine and tender to move the appropriate sounds where they should be.  Unfortunately the two QSI superbass speakers in the tender give better low end frequency response than the one smaller QSI superbass speaker mounted on the boiler weight.  So all sounds sound better coming from the tender.  But, I can make the chuff sound like it's coming from the stack but it's a bit thin.

 

QSI CV Manager with a QSI Quantum Programmer is the way to go with QSI decoders IMO.

 

Austin Bill

 

 

 Hello laidoffsick........

 

 I stand corrected (laughing), but I thought the hand brake wheels are on the outside like on freight cars ? What's fireman doing in the diesel locomotive ?  Isn't fireman's job to maintain the fire in firebox of steam locomotives ?

 

the woman who loves the S.F.5011,2678,2003,200

Tiffany

When the RRs were dieseling, the 5 man crew was still in effect.   There was an Engineer, Fireman, headed brakeman, conductor and rearend brakeman.    Generally the conductor and rearend brakeman were in the caboose.   

 

Early diesels were problematic quite often so the fireman still had stuff to do.   It was his job go back and restart any units that died enroute.   Often circuit breakers would pop out on the units while running, and he would walk back through the engine rooms and reset them to keep all the traction motors or whatever running.  

 

As the units have gotten more and more reliable, that type of work is not so frequent.   Over the years the crews have been reduced to 2, an engineer and conductor who on some roads are qualified for both jobs.    Both obviously ride in the cab now and the conductor confirms signals as the fireman used to do on both steam and diesel.    When approaching a signal, the engineer calls out the aspect, and the fireman or conductor calls what he sees to confirm it to the engineer, as In "Clear".

Sorry prrjim but, there haven't been "Firemen" nor "Headend Brakemen" in many decades.

 

However, for what it's worth, the FT units had manually controlled, belt driven cooling fans. Thus the Fireman really did have something to do on the early freight FT diesels, i.e he had go go back through the engine rooms and "turn on" or "turn off" the cooling fans in each unit, depending on the loading of the unit consist.

Johnny, they look to be running pretty well at slow speed though there is truth to a break-in period. When I bring an Atlas engine online, its first assignment is always "fishbelly duty". I will run that unit on a heavy coal train each day for an hour or so around and around the layout. At the end of the week I will clean the wheels and pickups and lightly grease the gears. Performance is noticeably better ......

Hotwater, did you happen to notice

 

"When the RRs were dieseling, the 5 man crew was still in effect.   There was an Engineer, Fireman, headed brakeman, conductor and rearend brakeman.    Generally the conductor and rearend brakeman were in the caboose."

 

You might want to remember the FTs were introduced arount 1939 and all F units were delivered by the mid-50s.   I think that implies "decades".   

 

And I did say that most RRs now use 2 man crews.   Which you seem to have ignored in my post.   

I am super pleased that my Rio Grande ABBA -- which is on it's way -- is coming in the original colors and with drawbars between both AB sets.   Thanks, Scott. 

 

If they need to be fine tuned after I lube them and break them in I'll just crank up QSI CV Manager and fine tune them. 

 

IMO this is the best of times -- to be able to have engines with this degree of detail and accuracy with DCC installed -- at this price point  -- right out of the box.   Thanks, Scott.

 

Hopefully the breaking in will help. That Erie paint scheme is so wonderful though. 

A few facts:

 

The Speakers in the A and B Units in 2R are wired to the two ports on the QSI Titan Board. They can be independently balanced if you have the hardware and software to do so.

 

The coming F7s, are not drawbared together. They have couplers at either end of each unit. And, we are putting full electronics, including decoder and speakers in each Unit too, so either unit can be run independently.

 

Soon for 2 Railers, QSI Solutions will be releasing Q3 upgrade software. To take advantage of the advanced sounds and features, you need to have a QSI Programmer. One programmer is all you need for all your Sunset or other manufacturer QSI equipped models. You can order one at www.qsisolutions.com

 

Enjoy your hobby.

 

Scott Mann

 

 

Thanks Scott. I talked to Jeff @ QSI about some of the upcoming additions to the Titan decoders and it is pretty exciting. He said they will soon give you the option of selecting any one of each major diesel horn type used in North America. I believe that is only for the Q3 files though.

 

I'm going to order a programmer ASAP so I can start fiddling with the audio mix.

 

In the mean time, does anyone have any recommended CV settings to start with?

QSI Titan decoders paired with Sunset 3rd Rail's single motor drive train can be fantastic performers - if they have been tuned to the drive train and use QSI's stereo sound capabilities (2 speakers /unit).  This report sounds like a repeat of the disappointing 2 rail performance issues with Sunset FP7's reported on the OGR Forum last winter.  All was made well after Josh Shedaker of QSI Solutions tuned a customer owned Sunset FP7 and posted the Q3 downloadable firmware file on the QSI Solutions web site.  Note that there are 2 different QSI companies.  QSI Industries (in Oregon) owns the patented designs and licenses them out to others for manufacturing and programming.  QSI Solutions (in Vermont) has the exclusive license to produce decoder for aftermarket  installation and for the QSI programmer hardware/software.  QSI Solutions also develops and hosts Q3 sound files for download.   AtlasO, Sunset, and several in HO have arrangements with QSI Industries for the right to manufacture and install QSI decoders.  In the past some manufacturers did not use the latest QSI decoder designs or newest sound files for contractual or production scheduling reasons (AtlasO used the old QSI Revolution design in several models after the much improved QSI Titan was available).  As Scott posted if you have QSI designed  decoders in your models (AtlasO, Sunset 3rd Rail, aftermarket installs)  and want optimum performance investing in a QSI Programmer is a smart way to go.   That said I believe AtlasO and Sunset would have more satisfied customers if tuned versions  of the latest QSI firmware was  loaded into the decoders before  models are shipped to customers.  This will be an even bigger issue for steam locomotives where chuff sync and low end performance is dependent on CV settings.

 

Ed Rappe

To back up Ed, I have a Sunset UP E7 AB set that Josh Shedaker of QSI Solutions customized for me.  It now has QSI Q3 ET decoders in both the A and B units. The original Q2 OEM decoder upgraded to Q3 in the A unit.  A new "aftermarket" Titan Magnum double stack decoder added to the B unit and with Q3 firmware. No tether.  Independent operation.  Furthermore it has two speakers in each unit.  The pair run extremely well at all speeds together.  THE SOUND IS AWESOME.  Blows away all of my other diesels from MTH, Atlas and Sunset. 

 

I agree with Ed and strongly hope that any manufacturer who uses QSI Titan decoders will arrange for Josh to fine tune a development model up front as part of the process.  Also, the multiple extra things he did to improve the acoustics should be part of the package.  I repeat.  My Josh Shedaker custom E7 AB makes all of my other diesels sound very mediocre.

 

As I have mentioned elsewhere, last month Josh set up and sent me a Q3 Titan Magnum for my Sunset UP 844 FEF-3 steam engine.  I dropped it in where I previously had a Q2 version along with QSI super bass speakers in engine and tender.  Anyway, I just installed it and put it on the track and it ran beautifully right out of the box.  All I had to do was use QSI CV Manager and the QSI Quantum Programmer to diddle with the lighting features and and a couple of other things.  The Q3 sound files are truly a "Quantum" leap in sound.  With the same speakers in the same positions -- nothing changed but the decoder -- the improvement in the whistle, bell, chuff and other sounds is fantastic. 

 

The important point is Josh fine tuned all the decoders to perfection and paid careful attention to improving the acoustics for the E7 A and B while modifying them for two speakers per unit. 

 

What a potentially great team for future projects, Scott designing and delivering great engines and Josh optimizing the control, sound and lights prior to production.

 

 

 

Johnnyspeed.  

 

Josh and Scott can only go so far with factory set motor control CV's as some engines just run differently than others.  So, fine tuning them is sometimes necessary.

 

But before I mess with motor control CV's when my FT's arrive I will lube 'em up and break them in.  I think Scott is now using white lithium grease in the gearboxes.  The E7's had a heavy lubricant that negatively impacted low speed performance and I think he changed lubricants.  Not sure. I always check the gearboxes anyway as a routine matter on any engine new to me.

 

I find CV Manager to be very user friendly.  Within it is a PID Assistant Josh created which makes it easier to optimize motor control CV's.  It's an iterative process.  More art than science.  But, if you save the original settings you can always go back if needed.  

 

Good luck.

BTW, Scott or anyone.  Do the FT's come with the Q2 or Q3 Titan decoder files?

Austin Bill --

 

You mentioned receiving your Rio Grande FTs in the original colors. Do you

mean the black with yellow stripes scheme? I thought the FTs were being imported only in

the post-1951 paint scheme.

AB cat whiskers just arrived...won't be able to run them until next week.

Jonathan did a great job on the colors and over all they look great.  Two quibbles...the B unit has boiler stacks which were not on the freight unit numbers I have and the steps are attached to the trucks.  I hope that at some point someone more skilled and braver than I am will post how to mount the steps to the body and even, with luck, someone will figure out how to replace the drawbar with a coupler.

 

Allan

The DRGW only came in the 4 stripe orange and silver.

 

For the steam generator it depends in which number of the early ATSF freight you got.  If you got 167 then it is correct.

 

Fixed stirrups; in process, outcome unknown.

Richard;

 

Thanks...# 178, one of the late units that never saw passenger service.

 

Allan

Nine boxes arrived from Sunset today!  A couple sets of Erie FTs and 5 Erie cabooses.  I think after a bit of running and fine tuning of the decoder BEMF they will run just fine.  They crawl pretty nicely out of the box.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Actually, the Rio Grande's FT units were delivered starting in 1942 in EMD's scheme of black with three yellow (imitation "gold") stripes. Rio grande later added yellow to the nose of the A units and, in 1951, the various F units (including F3s and F7s originally delivered in the black and yellow paint) started to appear to the orange and silver scheme.

 

The original order of FTs (delivered in 1942) were drawbar connected; the second order (delivered 1943, 1944) had drawbars on one set and couplers on others.

 

This information is condensed from "The Revolutionary Diesel: EMC's FT" published by

Diesel Era.

B Smith.  I got in on the recent special offer Scott announced and felt lucky to have a second chance to get a 2RL DRGW FT ABBA set.  So, I pulled the trigger on it very fast.  I thought I saw the Rio Grande FT's on the Sunset website with the original black bodies and yellow stripes a while back?  But either paint scheme is fine with me as I have no other FT's and I see advantages in both schemes.

 

rdunniii, are you saying it's the aspen gold and silver later paint scheme?

I'm gonna leave the name of the colors to DRGW fans.  They are being delivered in the 4 black stripe version.

 

They were all done as they were in the early 1950's except the ATSF early freight and warbonnets.

Well I'm an idiot, I never sent my reservation in for the FT's so I missed out.

I vote for a 2nd run Scott

There are always people who back out at the last minute so you never know what he might still have.

 

2nd run?  Given the numbers for the first run; <1% chance.