Taming the Williams Hudson

The mill work inside the boiler, with the attention to detail is what catches my eye,….obviously beautiful chassis work as usual, and way to go taming the wild horse that is a Williams, …but I’ve got to get to get to that level on how you did the boiler casting,…..fantastic!….this is why you still wear the master’s jacket ,….I remain second fiddle,….😌

Pat

My Dremel work in the boiler wouldn't be nearly that neat!

Very nice pete.   Ever wonder why Williams had all the weird 44:1,  42/1, 9:1 gearbox ratios. I do have some Williams with sane gearboxes but they seem to be in the minority. Their PRR B6 had a 21:1 which is just right for a mainline locomotive but a bit high for a switcher.  Lucky their 42:1 gearbox has the same gear on the drive axle and will swap with the 21:1 so I took the 21:1 from the B6 and put it in my N&W J and put the 42:1 from the J in the  B6. Both are happier for it.            j                      

The 42 & 44 to 1 gear boxes aren’t that miserable to fiddle with, ….usually the right Pittman motor will make them ….let’s say reasonably descent runners,….the fist fight with the diecast Williams Hudsons is the horrible 9:1,……there’s just no where’s to go,…you just can’t get a motor to spin that slow and make it smooth,….Pete’s certainly tamed it, so hats off to him,….I surrendered on my Williams Hudson and it now resides as a static display on the layout with little workers trying to fix something I couldn’t …..it would be nice if the gear boxes Pete found were more readily available as this would open a new frontier in modifying Williams Hudsons into nicer models worthy of adding more & more details,…..IF the gear boxes were easier to obtain, modding a Williams Hudson into a nice scale model would be a far cheaper endeavor than cutting up the old Lionel Pulmor Hudsons,….cause if you want a big can motor in a Lionel, step one is chop off the whole back of the chassis and cry cause you ain’t turning back!!…..I might be letting the cat out of the bag, but I got to watch every other evening as Pete wrestled this thing,….one thing he did that’s neat is he’s scooted everything forward, so now he can add important parts, like a full backhead, and judging by the depth of the motor, it ain’t gonna be stuck out the back like a Lionel,…..impressive work,…

Pat  

..

NWSL is back in business after a few years off line during a change in ownership.

I had ordered a 25:1 Mod .5 gearbox for this engine from them just a few days before I found this one on eBay as it typically the case. They are built to order so may take a few weeks.

Anyone wanting to do a similar swap can use either a mod ,5 or mod .6 25:1 and 23:1 respectively. This engine has a 5mm axle. A driver has to be pulled to remove the gear and axle bearings then requartered.

I could have just gone with a Cruise board as it does a lot to slow down the engine but wanted to take it to the next step.

I think the first speed step is close to Vision Hudson speed now.

Pete

A 9:1 gearbox would even cause a Pittman 500 series to pull of a lot of current starting a heavy train or pulling a grade. Might even fry your cruise board.  Torque at the wheels is less than 1/3 that of the 25:1.   The 25:1 is the smart thing to do.          j

Those results are impressive. I have one of these Williams that I detailed a la 700E, and in which I installed a Cruise Commander/pre-RS Sound Commander. This made it useable. I have been happy with the now-steady running speed and slow-speed performance - at least until seeing yours. Gee, thanks.

I've posted this photo of it before; the valve gear still needs to be corrected/completed. That sand dome is a separate piece, as I recall - I was tempted to do a square sandbox/B&A J2 treatment.

D, the catch with simply swapping the gearbox is its much shorter than the existing one. With parallel shafts the offset is 3/4” requiring a belt drive. No room to tilt the big motor being so close to the cab roof. I had to grind the roof to be able to tilt that smaller motor.

BTW, very nice detail work. I will be adding details over time.

Pete

D500, …that’s sharp looking for being a Williams diecast,….I’m really interested to see what Pete does to doll up his Williams,….

Pat

@harmonyards posted:

D500, …that’s sharp looking for being a Williams diecast,….I’m really interested to see what Pete does to doll up his Williams,….

Pat

I wasn’t planning to go that far on the detailing but after seeing D’s I may be motivated.

Pete

@Norton posted:

I wasn’t planning to go that far on the detailing but after seeing D’s I may be motivated.

Pete

After all that work, ….now it not only deserves it, ….it demands detailing,….😉

I know a guy that knows a guy that steer you in the right direction,….

Pat

Gentlemen, how does the performance of the Williams 773 Hudson with the 2426 tender compare with a Lionel 18002 785 Hudson

@coach joe posted:

Gentlemen, how does the performance of the Williams 773 Hudson with the 2426 tender compare with a Lionel 18002 785 Hudson

It’s two different worlds Coach, ……the Williams 773 is a high geared can motor, and the 785 is an old school Pulmor AC open frame ….now, you want the best, have a 785 converted to a Pittman, and your jaw will hit the floor, ……even conventional, smooth as silk, run for hours on end, and never let out a whimper, no matter how many cars you toss behind it, ……the only limiting factor, put too many cars behind it and she’ll slip the drivers, ……but she won’t stall the motor,…😉

Pat

Thanks Pat.  I've been wanting a 785 for a while.  Thought it would require larger radius than I'll have but I've been told it will run 0-31.  I was at a train show today, 2 785s but for more than I want to spend.  The Williams 783 looked similar, black not gray, with spoked drivers and was only $250.  Now I don't need it to creep but sounds like it's it's a road runner and with a smaller layout I'll never be able to load it down.

@coach joe posted:

Thanks Pat.  I've been wanting a 785 for a while.  Thought it would require larger radius than I'll have but I've been told it will run 0-31.  I was at a train show today, 2 785s but for more than I want to spend.  The Williams 783 looked similar, black not gray, with spoked drivers and was only $250.  Now I don't need it to creep but sounds like it's it's a road runner and with a smaller layout I'll never be able to load it down.

The785 is a bit of an oddball mechanically Coach, …..beware,….to get the gauging to work at the factory, Lionel added a plate to each side of the frame, ……the gauging of a 785 is a touch wider than some of the others,……it’ll probably go through O31 ok ( ish ) but best suited on O42,……

Pat

Pat is correct, I have an old stock 785 and it runs nicely around 042 curves. You need to make sure it has that non scale small wheel front truck. My warhorse atsf hudson with scale front truck will also go around my 042 but it makes a ton of noise, might be some of that wider gauging Pat mentioned. I’m just surprised Williams put a 9:1 in their version lol

The 785 will run on 031.... But, it doesnt look right to me. She seems angry on 031 radius.  I run mine on 054 and it runs nicely. It was a shelf queen all it's life. Boy, talk about break in period with that bad boy. But, it isn't the quietest around. I like it as I only pull 3 plastic passenger cars. I don't want to overload it. She is a beautiful engine with the spoked wheels. I can run it slow enough to annoy me, so that's good enough. However a pittman swap doesn't sound all that bad.  🤔

@Dennis Holler posted:

I’m just surprised Williams put a 9:1 in their version lol

Williams couldn't make up their mind on gear ratios!  Some of the brass has 44:1, super low speed performance, but a top speed of around 35 scale MPH with the motor screaming at 8,000 RPM!

@Donnie Kennedy

The 785 will run on 031.... But, it doesnt look right to me. She seems angry on 031 radius.  I run mine on 054 and it runs nicely. It was a shelf queen all it's life. Boy, talk about break in period with that bad boy. But, it isn't the quietest around. I like it as I only pull 3 plastic passenger cars. I don't want to overload it. She is a beautiful engine with the spoked wheels. I can run it slow enough to annoy me, so that's good enough. However a pittman swap doesn't sound all that bad.  🤔

Same basic engine, my Warhorse from 1996. You can here it slip, but handles six aluminum cars easy even forcing the scale pilot truck around 042 curves. I think my warhorse is tighter on the gauge than my 785, but is the same thing Pat mentioned. Even two chuffs would make this wnging sound so much better lol.

With a Pittman & some ballast weight, pull what you want, for hours on end, ….this 18056 Hudson runs conventional, 5-6 hours straight every weekend, ……it’s not even breaking a sweat ……😁

Pat

I know, It's a win win... I have the perfect candidate, that flooded 18045 lol...

@Dennis Holler posted:

I know, It's a win win... I have the perfect candidate, that flooded 18045 lol...

Wow,……🥺

Pat

Here you go Coach. Classic 785 on 031 curves.. 

She does it, but she looks angry even doing it light Donnie! 🤣🤣🤣

Pat

I may have posted this on another thread but if not this is the result of the new gearbox and Pittman motor in the Williams 773 prior to detailing.

After detailing.

Pete

Legacy Schmegacy

@harmonyards posted:

She does it, but she looks angry even doing it light Donnie! 🤣🤣🤣

Pat

Told ya she's angry on 031. 😂.

Donnie, you and Apples55 were the ones that that told me she would run on a smaller layout and reignited the desire for one.  What size is your layout with 4 loops of track?

It's a 5x9 pool table with Menards o gauge. My apologies for the misinformation. It will run on 031,but wanted to show you what it would look like. It is the smallest loop on the layout. Not sure if a longer loop of 031 will look better? That's why I wanted to double check it before you invested in a 785. I run 054 on the outside loop. Are you on a 4x8? Can you run 042?

For the foreseeable future 4x8 is the limit.  I've got 0-27 track and switches with enough 42" curves for an outer loop.  I may see if I can track down some more on ebay and try an inner loop with compound curves of 42 and 27 inch radii.

Norton, she looks and runs great after your upgrades.  Such upgrades are beyond my capabilities.  While I do not require such slow speeds  I don't need an engine that takes off at incredibly high speeds.  It would've have been nice to see before and after videos of it on the tracks.

@coach joe posted:

Norton, she looks and runs great after your upgrades.  Such upgrades are beyond my capabilities.  While I do not require such slow speeds  I don't need an engine that takes off at incredibly high speeds.  It would've have been nice to see before and after videos of it on the tracks.

This is before but powered by a Cruise Commander at speed step 1. In conventional it would be difficult to have run this slow and steady so Cruise helps. What may be harder to distinguish is how much smoother it runs with the Pittman.

This after the motor and gearbox swap.

Pete

Thanks Pete and all who have replied to my query. It’s all a mute point now, I returned to the train show today, one of the vendors dropped the price on the 785 to $350, I offered $300 and he took it. She needs a little cleaning.

I now have my eye on a Lionel GW-180. I started another thread asking if there’s any issues with it

Hey Coach, that’s excellent!! Any challenges with it let us know! We can help out.

Yep, agree with Dennis, ….clean the gear box out straight away Coach, unless it’s been done already,….

Pat.

Thanks guys.  Does any body have the instructions that came with it?

@Norton posted:

I may have posted this on another thread but if not this is the result of the new gearbox and Pittman motor in the Williams 773 prior to detailing.

After detailing.

Pete

Legacy Schmegacy

The detailing looks so nice. Brings to mind that I have yet to address the abbreviated valve gear issue on my detailed Williams J1 (and my "old" Lionel L-3 Mohawk), but I did on my streamlined (with ancient Wms brass add-on pieces and parts)  5344 J1e former "ATSF" Warhorse. Not sure if I have more parts. Wonder if Lionel does? Must check. It does look so much better, though.

And, yes - Legacy Schmegacy. Sounds like a cap or T-shirt to me.

This thing is an old ****-for-leather TMCC Pullmor. Bit of a beast.

@coach joe posted:

Thanks guys.  Does any body have the instructions that came with it?

I emailed you the 785 instructions. Should be similar minus yours has solid wheels with magnatraction. I agree, clean out the gear box and apply fresh grease! Hopefully the smoke unit is ok. I've replaced the element and put wading in the smoke bowl. For some reason LTI era didn't believe in putting wading in their smoke units. With some megasteam she smokes good enough for me!

@D500 posted:

The detailing looks so nice. Brings to mind that I have yet to address the abbreviated valve gear issue on my detailed Williams J1 (and my "old" Lionel L-3 Mohawk), but I did on my streamlined (with ancient Wms brass add-on pieces and parts)  5344 J1e former "ATSF" Warhorse. Not sure if I have more parts. Wonder if Lionel does? Must check. It does look so much better, though.

And, yes - Legacy Schmegacy. Sounds like a cap or T-shirt to me.

This thing is an old ****-for-leather TMCC Pullmor. Bit of a beast.

I followed suit D, ….I used a 28084 TMCC shell set  I picked up at York for mere pennies, and sat that down on a CV Pulmor chassis, ……naturally, I ditched the Pulmor for a Pittman, then borrowed Pete’s rod stretcher program to make roller bearing rods fit the CV chassis, …..still a work in progress, …..I need all the valve train too, …..sadly, Lionel only has a piece here, or a piece there, …….plan is to make this into a Mercury engine ……

Pat

@harmonyards posted:

I followed suit D, ….I used a 28084 TMCC shell set  I picked up at York for mere pennies, and sat that down on a CV Pulmor chassis, ……naturally, I ditched the Pulmor for a Pittman, then borrowed Pete’s rod stretcher program to make roller bearing rods fit the CV chassis, …..still a work in progress, …..I need all the valve train too, …..sadly, Lionel only has a piece here, or a piece there, …….plan is to make this into a Mercury engine ……

Pat

That's what I did with mine - made it into 5344's Mercury incarnation. I even used the Wms brass tender - trucks and all - plus swapped Lionel RS/IR drawbar/e-coupler. Not too painful. That firebox shrouding was made up of the original J3 Wms one, plus heightening for the J1's running-board hump. Lots of soldering with brass and copper sheet. Saw a photo later with a very abbreviated version of the sheathing - I could have saved myself some work.

Looking forward to seeing your snazzy version.