@gunrunnerjohn posted:No arguing that it has some good points, but I was trying to run one of my Legacy locomotives using the LC BT app and once again realized why I hate the idea of using a smartphone to run my trains! Controlling the speed in any precise manner is hopeless!
GRJ, Get off some money and buy a tablet!
Thanks for the video, I appreciate you points.
For me I have no interest in the LionChief Line of products. Therefore, that benefit is not an advantage to me.
I will be remaining on the sidelines here with the cab-3 for some time until a true need is established.
I also question why a new "advanced" remote is not being developed. Yes, a cell phone is a $1000 remote, but as stated in the video, It may be in use for something else. An older phone may not be an option because it too has outdated operating systems and hardware. This is one advantage of a closed system.
@hokie71 posted:Get off some money and buy a tablet!
That's my plan. I don't like using my smart phone for much of anything. 
All kidding aside I figure the larger screens gotta work better for this. Otherwise I don't think I would ever adapt to using apps for controlling trains.
To reiterate what H1000 is stating, the base 3 will respond to the Cab2 (Legacy handheld), the Cab-1L (still in production) and to the smart device cab 3 app (on your Apple or Android tablet or phone). Don't know about the Universal Remote, but perhaps Dave O. mentioned this in his talk. Don't see any mention of the base 3 responding to the Universal Remote, so I'd assume no. Could be something possible down the road I suppose.
@hokie71 posted:GRJ, Get off some money and buy a tablet!
A tablet ain't the answer to the question!
Here a scenario on using your phone as the only control point. You're running that new $1,000+ plus set, for what ever reason it glitches, derails or otherwise fails. At the same time you get a call to "extend your cars warranty" and it all crashes LITTERALLY. The dedicated remote doesn't entirely solve this, but certainly feels like a better solution.
Trying to keep it lite here! LOL!
Funny but true! I also want to avoid any wifi and network migration issues using a phone would entail.
I'm not completely 'round the bend, I'll have a cab1L. 
@turkey_hollow_rr posted:That's my plan. I don't like using my smart phone for much of anything.
That "gotta work better" is why I pinged GRJ. That bigger screen may not be as perfect as the hand held on speed control but I can vouch for the fact that it is a lot better than my $300 cell phone... Hey, who spends a grand on a cell phone anyway?
I am in the same camp as GRJ. I have the DCS app and the Lionel app loaded on both my phone and an iPad as well as an old iPhone 6.
While it works, it is in no way equal to a handheld controller. You do not have the kind of control dragging your finger around a screen as you do with a knob. You also need two hands, making it awkward when you are switching. You have to keep scrolling back and forth to find the locomotive and the switch controls.
This is my opinion, I know alot of people are thrilled that "there is an app for that', but I'm not one of them.
Me personally I think I would appreciate a remote as well. That said there is some irony to the app controlling things, it is the way that many control systems are heading, on aircraft, on vehicles , etc. Some things are not well suited IMO to touch screens and the like (for example, steering a car or an aircraft). A lot of even seeming mechanical systems are fly by wire, not direct connection, lot of aircraft are fly by wire and you couldn't fly them without the computer system working, they are that aerodynamically unstable. On the other hand, can't see flying an airplane using touch screen for altitude and direction (maybe mind control like "Firefox"? *lol*). If Lionel puts some kind of interface into the app that allows a user to choose some sort of generic controller/remote, that would be kind of neat, you could set it up just as you want.
@hokie71 posted:That "gotta work better" is why I pinged GRJ. That bigger screen may not be as perfect as the hand held on speed control but I can vouch for the fact that it is a lot better than my $300 cell phone... Hey, who spends a grand on a cell phone anyway?
I have the iPad for the Lionel LCS, I can't even conceive of carrying that around to actually run trains with! If that's the solution, I may indeed have to go back to conventional control and forget all this command nonsense! 
IMO, a tablet doesn't "gotta work better", and it may well be even worse! We're going in the wrong direction here guys! 
I'm hearing a lot of excuses why the remote has to be super costly. That flies in the face of all the zillions of gadgets with buttons, dials, displays, etc. on them. My A/C system has a remote with a bunch of keys, rocker switches, and an LCS display. I bought a second one for $25, and I doubt they have a huge quantity of those being manufactured. Maybe more than model trains, but then I'd be willing to pay more than $25 for a full function remote!
Remember, many (most?) folks here probably spend at least several thousand a year on their train hobby, some spend north of $10,000, hard to believe the manufacturers can't cough up a decent remote control option!
I am dragging my knuckles on the ground. There is no way a touch screen tablet is going to work for me.
No app for me either but I am a cranky OLD MAN. I have enough remotes to last me for some time.
Donald
@gunrunnerjohn posted:...hard to believe the manufacturers can't cough up a decent remote control option!
John,
To what extent do you think the issue is a "Chicken or the egg" problem?
If Lionel is to be believed (I have no reason to think differently). It appears to me Lionel was faced with a conundrum. Their CAB2/BASE2 was problematic and/or outdated and finding parts to manufacture new stock has been becoming more difficult. Further, they wanted to come up with a new product that could control all their offerings.
Could it be that they could only put resources into either a base or a remote but not both –hence 🐣 analogy?
If (and thats a big IF) that is the case, doesn't it make sense to do the base first, and then a remote later? Especially when Lionel is making existing remotes compatible? Further, why wouldn't Lionel continue to make CAB2 if they could, there seems to be demand?
Lionel has said they are not opposed to working on a remote in the future plus if they allow 3rd party peripherals in the meantime, that seems like best case scenario under the facts as stated above.
We may spend thousands, but I don't think Lionel has endless R&D making this line of thinking plausible.
Just curious of your thoughts because you have an expertise in this field.
No app for me either but I am a cranky OLD MAN. I have enough remotes to last me for some time.
Donald you are sitting on millions there! those are worth more than their weight in gold LOL
It time to open our eyes and to stop inhaling Big L's smoke screen generated by $2000 ++ locomotives, which will probably have no available replacement parts, six (6) months from now!
There is no longer any meaningful competition ... it's "open season" for the hunter (Big L) ... and hobbyist, like us, are the "game," or should I say "suckers/victims"!
Gunrunner John is "spot-on" (once again)!
Another concern with the App/Phone/Tablet issue as the controller is the screen saver/blanking out. I know it is certainly possible to override such functions, but I'm sure the one time that is forgotten is the time things go haywire. click the screen, scan your finger, enter a password, meanwhile the "boom" happened on step one.
Not that I don't appreciate having an app to do some things, i just want BOTH an app and a remote.
Why didn't they integrate some hard interface features into the cab 3 as a backup or emergency solution? It would have been easy enough to do. It's already a $400-500 product.
Just another thought.
@Gpritch posted:Another concern with the App/Phone/Tablet issue as the controller is the screen saver/blanking out. I know it is certainly possible to override such functions, but I'm sure the one time that is forgotten is the time things go haywire. click the screen, scan your finger, enter a password, meanwhile the "boom" happened on step one.
Not that I don't appreciate having an app to do some things, i just want BOTH an app and a remote.
Why didn't they integrate some hard interface features into the cab 3 as a backup or emergency solution? It would have been easy enough to do. It's already a $400-500 product.
Just another thought.
Define "hard interface features".
The screen timeout is pretty weak argument IMO. It's easy enough on any device to changes the timeout settings, or remove password requirement (if you wish). My current cell phone wakes up and unlocks the instant my thumb hits the fingerprint sensor which is even faster than pressing a button to wake the screen and then swiping up to unlock (no security). Also, the app can have override permissions built into (just like the YouTube, Netflix and many other video playing apps) to not allow the screen to sleep or the phone to lock. This could be a simple setting in the app itself.
Buying old phone or tablet to run the CAB3 app should be a perfectly viable option. The apps from MTH & Lionel don't require advanced permissions, internet access or access to security features of the device to operate and therefore fly under the scrutiny of Apple and Google. The two primary devices I use to run my layout now is a Motorola Razr M from 2012 and a Google Nexus 7 2nd generation tablet from 2013 (featured in the video I posted earlier). I know that right now the Lionchief app for Android has some big problems with older hardware and that could be fixed easily. Heck I'd do it for them if they would give me access to the source code but we all know that ain't going to happen!
A lot of angst. A lot of over thinking IMO. I think folks will just have to decide whether they want to move forward or stay where they are comfortable. Nothing wrong with that.
An appropriate follow up to the comment from Marty E, anyone ever watched the two-thumb typing of the younger generation on cell phones?
@MartyE posted:A lot of angst. A lot of over thinking IMO. I think folks will just have to decide whether they want to move forward or stay where they are comfortable. Nothing wrong with that.
I've already decided, I have a spare Legacy base and even the BASE1L. I won't be a launch customer for the BASE3.
I have to laugh at these threads as they remind me of 20 years ago when the cab-1 and base came out. There were members claiming they would never use a remote and you would have to pry the handles from their cold dead hands. Myself I like the remotes, heck I don't even have a cell to use as a phone!
Doug
@gunrunnerjohn posted:I've already decided, I have a spare Legacy base and even the BASE1L. I won't be a launch customer for the BASE3.
I’m on the other end of the spectrum and will dive in.
@trnluvr posted:I have to laugh at these threads as they remind me of 20 years ago when the cab-1 and base came out. There were members claiming they would never use a remote and you would have to pry the handles from their cold dead hands. Myself I like the remotes, heck I don't even have a cell to use as a phone!
Doug
I think the point is that many of us want ALL three options, handle, remote or app. Each have a place.
Additionally, they want the deluxe remote, the CAB-2 functionality to live on. A new version would be fine, just don't eliminate that.
@MartyE posted:I’m on the other end of the spectrum and will dive in.
I'm diving in as well.
I don't see a downside - but I do see some cool advantages.
I’m never going to buy an LC/+/2 engine. Not going to happen.
They’re not scale, with maybe the occasional switcher as an exception. With that said, I have zero use for the Base3. Other than that feature, it offers nothing beyond what the existing tech offered.
If on the off chance I did pick up an LC engine, why wouldn’t I just use a Lionel Universal Remote?
@H1000 posted:Define "hard interface features".
Simply, why not put some controls on the cab-3? Perhaps a speed, direction, whistle, bell, keypad and display. Then the system could be a true control panel. Yes, it would be local to the cab-3, but that may actually be the sweet spot of compromise for the BYO Remote issue.
@Gpritch posted:Simply, why not put some controls on the cab-3? Perhaps a speed, direction, whistle, bell, keypad and display. Then the system could be a true control panel. Yes, it would be local to the cab-3, but that may actually be the sweet spot of compromise for the BYO Remote issue.
Okay Let's clarify,
The CAB-3 is an app and the BASE-3 is the actual hardware being sold. Are you wanting to put physical controls on the BASE-3?
If we are going to put these controls on the BASE-3 how doe those folks like me who would place this device under the table where it isn't easily accessable use the controls to initiate an emergency stop?
The CAB-3 app will have all the controls you want plus the ability to initiate an emergency stop.
@H1000 posted:Okay Let's clarify,
The CAB-3 is an app and the BASE-3 is the actual hardware being sold. Are you wanting to put physical controls on the BASE-3?
If we are going to put these controls on the BASE-3 how doe those folks like me who would place this device under the table where it isn't easily accessable use the controls to initiate an emergency stop?
I think he meant Base3 and maybe making it in a completely different package. Like a DCS Commander type unit.
I'd like to take this even further to other end of remote control hand holds and that is computer control. Does anyone know if the Base3 will be able to be interfaced to the computer using control apps like JMRI or TrainController?
@Chris Underwood posted:I'd like to take this even further to other end of remote control hand holds and that is computer control. Does anyone know if the Base3 will be able to be interfaced to the computer using control apps like JMRI or TrainController?
Since it has PDI ports, and Dave said it will work with the SER2, I don’t see why that wouldn’t work.
@rplst8 posted:Since it has PDI ports, and Dave said it will work with the SER2, I don’t see why that wouldn’t work.
eTrain most likely will work since they are a Legacy Partner so I suspect others will with the proper coding.
@Gpritch posted:Simply, why not put some controls on the cab-3? Perhaps a speed, direction, whistle, bell, keypad and display. Then the system could be a true control panel. Yes, it would be local to the cab-3, but that may actually be the sweet spot of compromise for the BYO Remote issue.
Sounds kind of like the Yard Boss concept Lionel started to develop. @Notch 6 Derek Thomas has a working prototype.
I only have one LC loco.
I have Legacy and DCS, and WI-FI for both systems. Everything is working perfectly, and my needs are fully met.
So, I am not sure how the Base3 would improve my experience. I will pass for now.
Tactile... indeed
I just pre-ordered... that makes one ...of us?
@Dennis-LaRock posted:Tactile... indeed
I just pre-ordered... that makes one ...of us?
At least 2 but I know TrainWorld said on the catalog show that their orders were outstanding.
@Gpritch posted:I think the point is that many of us want ALL three options, handle, remote or app. Each have a place.
Additionally, they want the deluxe remote, the CAB-2 functionality to live on. A new version would be fine, just don't eliminate that.
Yes. Precisely.
Absolutely no one in this thread is saying "You can't have an app.", but many, many, many have said "You can't have your dedicated, tactile remote (Cab-2) anymore no matter how badly you want one."
(Actually it goes much farther because the many, many, many are also adding "and here's why ..." without questioning the logic behind it.)
Mike
Great video, Chris.I jumped in the day of the catalog release.....it sounds like there is pretty good acceptance out of the gate.....it was 11:30 AM that Friday (just hours after the catalog release) and I called Steve Nelson.....I was about the 30th pre-order so far......
Peter
Thinking about this I wonder why Lionel didn't think of using the APP as an api for a controller? The Cab2 remote is not rocket science, it has the rf section to connect to the command base , which is off the shelf, but when you use the buttons and such they send the legacy commands to the base, which means there are asics in there which are custom made. The buttons and speed control are trivial items really. If I had to hazard a guess, it is because Dave and whoever worked on this are fully used to using apps on a tablet/phone and didn't think of it that some may still want full remote capability.
The app basically has all that built into it,the hard part, so a remote becomes relatively simple. It would need to communicate with the app running on a device, prob via bluetooth or USB C or Apple connector if wired, and it would be passing down a relatively simple code indicating a button was pushed or a slider was moved and that is likely pretty standard (or they could do something like support controllers that work with a PSx or Xbox). As GRJ would say, not rocket science. I know Lionel doesn't like off the shelf approaches to things, but game controllers are plentiful out there, all the game platforms have a ton of third party companies that make controllers for the platform, and would be a nice solution.
In my case I don't really have a choice, in the sense that unless I want to spend a fortune buying a 990 or a current MTH base unit/tiu, I will be using the new base(s) from both MTH and Lionel when it shows up (to debug and run my trains initially, will be good old conventional running, which given 99% of what I have at the moment is conventional only....). If MTH is making a remote for their base and Lionel doesn't offer one, I'll use MTH to control the base 3 when I need it (I don't have TMCC or Legacy engines at the moment). Since both are vaporware for the foreseeable future, my thoughts are hopes for the future anyway.
@Putnam Division posted:Great video, Chris.I jumped in the day of the catalog release.....it sounds like there is pretty good acceptance out of the gate.....it was 11:30 AM that Friday (just hours after the catalog release) and I called Steve Nelson.....I was about the 30th pre-order so far......
Peter
Peter
I think it's going to be a big seller especially since Lionel did keep the functionality of being able to use the remotes we have. Since Dave alluded to looking into engineering a remote or an interface on Demo's with Dave (he promised nothing) and others have done some creative hardware interfacing of their own I think all will be well with the world after some initial growing pains.
I hope those of us with Legacy remotes will have many years with them. I also think those that will try the app with an open mind might find some stuff they like about it even though they prefer the hardware remote. Personally I think something like the gaming controller interface shown earlier maybe in a different form factor would be cool.
Sooner or later tablets and iPhones will be obsolete. Then what? I’m just sticking with my handheld remotes. I’m not using all the new technology stuff as it is now. I talk to myself too much now and certainly not going to start talking to my engines.
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