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Just got back from York - kinda sad. I'm glad I got to go to York "back in the day" when it was truly a "big deal". Many vendors that I always make a point to visit weren't even there.  Every time I return it is a little smaller, a few less vendors, less product, less everything. After walking around the halls I spent exactly $20 on one item.  If you add in what it cost to get there and get in, it's not the deal you thought it was. Mostly, I didn't see what I was looking for (not looking for anything exotic) and when I did see something of interest the prices were terrible.  Several vendors were asking more for their product than what I can walk into my LHS and get the same thing for! No thanks. 

I went to the "bandit meets" on Monday and that was even more pathetic. A mere ghost of what it used to be. Probably only 10~20% of what it once was. 

I'm more and more inclined to stay at home on my computer and click on stuff I want to buy off of eBay or some other on-line outlet. 

If York is the barometer of our hobby then things are definitely going downhill.  

-RM

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Ralph M posted:

If York is the barometer of our hobby then things are definitely going downhill.  

-RM

York is only a barometer of York.

I imagine it's getting harder for some of the smaller guys to justify the costs (travel, food, lodging, time) of being at York.

Even Ryan from Lionel indicated their travel and expense budget only goes so far, especially since it appears they want to reach out to potential new customers at other shows.

Rusty

Things go in cycles. Would you say things peaked for York in the early 2000's?  Definitely before they started opening on Thursday which killed the bandit meets.  To get the excitement back into the show they may have to come to the realization that once a year may be in order.  

In fact I just made reservations for Oct and I can remember it was impossible to get a hotel room anywhere in town 15 years ago.  Now it's easy and for less than a 100 bucks a night.

I couldn't justify the cost of going to York to buy one item.

I came to buy 3 items.  So far I have found and bought two of them.  Problem is I found 41 other items I wasn't looking for or didn't know about.  Couldn't pass them up for the price.   So that's York for you. 

What happens in York doesn't stay in York.  What's shrinking is my wallet. 

 

Last edited by aussteve

Having never been to York, I can't speak from experience, but I have read enough of everyone's posts over the years to get the picture. This is not a cycle, it is a trend of steady decline. How could it not be? Members are getting older, health declining, and many taking that "last train ride".

A lot of the guys from my area, who used to go all the time have stopped, for exactly the reasons I stated above. They just can't do it anymore. Then you have the online phenomenon. York is like brick and mortar, when brick and mortar is also in decline.

I'm not suggesting that York is dead, but I seriously doubt it will ever be what it once was. The truth is people aren't taking up hobbies like they used to, and this one can be particularly demanding of time, space and money. All things that young people today don't have much of. We live in different times, with different priorities. It all adds up, or rather subtracts.

Some people are optimists on this subject, but I take a more realistic view, and the truth is the times are changing, and York is just a sign.  

Last edited by Big_Boy_4005

York was great ...York is what you make of it ......great gathering of friends and trains ...... perhaps a bit more or less with the seasons ...but  thee best place to find the unusual ......if you seek you shall find ......  any day at York is better than one staring at a screen ....    the toy train world is a social thing ...the trains are only one part ...if you make it the only part you are sadly missing out on 90% of the fun ...

York was much much smaller in 1974  when I first attended ..much bigger in 2000  and still darn big now ...  long live York 

Cheers Carey 

York was good for me. Selling items and I am doing very well. Took 16 Premier  MTH steam sold all but 2 so far. 

I also found a few thing to bring home.

Yes is is different from the first time I attended in spring 1980. Have only missed  2 in all those years.

Have never attended a bad Train Show. I am glad there are shows to go to.

Every hobby on this Planet has gone threw many changes. 

Have fun. If you dont like a price Move On.

See you at Next York. 

 

It seems to me that swap meets/train shows are like almost any store where you have a "flexible" cross section of items available at any given moment. Sometimes you hit a good deal or two or more(!); sometimes nada. Does that make it a "good" show or a "bad" show? Just depends on what you're looking for...

You may go to that new antique/pawn shop that just opened and find something you've always wanted; you might go back 100 times after that and never again see anything you want. Does that make it a "good" shop or a "bad" one? Again, it depends on your tastes...

I personally don't do a lot of shows: I tend to get so overwhelmed with the shear volume of items all laid out that I end up missing stuff, and usually come home with very little. I much prefer the more methodical approach that places like eBay offer me; I can take my time to decide, and if I miss out, I know that at some point in the future, I'll get another crack at it.

 I'm sure for some, attending York must be like "going to the mountain top". I know it sure garners a lot of discussion here; and photos of people getting together to eat... 

Mark in Oregon

ELLIOT: summed it up best. There is a natural attrition at work here, and it is called LIFE (and DEATH)! I first joined TCA in 1974, dropped out in 1984, and rejoined in 1991. At 76, I have never been to York, yet I have had a VERY fulfilling life in multiple gauges and scales, including gauge one live steam. I purchase from the "mom and pop" mail order hobby shops, which are in fact LOCAL where they are located, and from the truly local shops that once existed in my resident states, New York, North Carolina and Tennessee. The collecting and operating model and toy train hobby will survive, but with greatly reduced participation as we geezers take that final ride. PS: ELLIOT, SORRY for the misspelling of your name!

Last edited by Tinplate Art

I'm younger and have never been to York, even if it's smaller than it was at its' peak I understand it still fills several large halls. I regularly attend Greenberg shows and ATMA and I'm always overwhelmed just by the size and selection at those shows, and usually find at least one or two pieces to bring home. While I can understand some long-timers may be disappointed by York, I have a feeling I'll enjoy it just fine once I can make the trip.

Strummer posted:

 

I personally don't do a lot of shows: I tend to get so overwhelmed with the shear volume of items all laid out that I end up missing stuff, and usually come home with very little. I much prefer the more methodical approach that places like eBay offer me; I can take my time to decide, and if I miss out, I know that at some point in the future, I'll get another crack at it.

 Mark in Oregon

That's how I've gotten over the last ten or so years. It's like looking for a needle in a haystack, and I've lost my focus to search through all of the hay. I don't really need any more needles anyway. Now I just pre-order when the catalogs come out, and forget about it, til it lands on my doorstep. Then I set it aside, until I get around to opening it. I guess you could say I've mellowed in my 50's.

It is real simple, the baby boomers are starting to retire and die off. They represent the single largest group of people in any hobby or activity. There is nothing anyone can do about it. For the next 30 years there will be more people selling trains than buying, everything the baby boomers were part of will see a period of decline. 

If you were part of York the last 30 years or so be grateful you had the opportunity. Times change and I am sure York and model railroading will survive.

 

 

I spent $15 at York... saw nothing new and different...circled it two times instead of four and had been there and done that.   Piles of boxes but no new prototypes...l have what was offered of interest. Then opened up the net and found a British! outfit offering a Mack railbus!  Who offers that in three rail? There is more of On30 of interest currently offered.  Been saying that about Bachmann for years. It is not funny!

Ralph M posted:

Just got back from York - kinda ...

I'm more and more inclined to stay at home on my computer and click on stuff I want to buy off of eBay or some other on-line outlet. ...-RM

And therein we have a clue about a larger change occurring in American culture which we may see getting reflected in our TCA Meets @York; that is, look at what has been happening to malls...3961e5b8-fb99-47d7-8a04-13e47e7a0326-022119_Wayne_mallTZ_869

FrankM

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Last edited by Moonson

This was my fourth York. I can see it getting a little smaller even in a short time. I hope Fall is back up in size with the return of some of the bigger vendors. I went looking for the people who do the backdrops for the layouts. Of course they were not present either.

I did find some great deals, although I amazingly walked away without buying a single engine.

I got to meet some great people, including Harry Heike who will be custom painting a K4 I dropped off to him.

I enjoyed the event as always! It just felt a little empty compared to the few prior that I have attended. I look forward to October!

 

- Matt

Sounds like most of those who attended had a good time. 

Plus, Spring is the kick off for the Summer months, where historically model railroading takes a back seat to more "outdoorsy"activities, whereas Fall leads us into the seasons where we might stay inside and play with our trains. Based on that it would seem that the Fall York would be a bigger event anyway...(?)

Mark in Oregon

Tinplate Art posted:

ELLIOT: summed it up best. There is a natural attrition at work here, and it is called LIFE (and DEATH)! I first joined TCA in 1974, dropped out in 1984, and rejoined in 1991. At 76, I have never been to York, yet I have had a VERY fulfilling life in multiple gauges and scales, including gauge one live steam. I purchase from the "mom and pop" mail order hobby shops, which are in fact LOCAL where they are located, and from the truly local shops that once existed in my resident states, New York, North Carolina and Tennessee. The collecting and operating model and toy train hobby will survive, but with greatly reduced participation as we geezers take that final ride. PS: ELLIOT, SORRY for the misspelling of your name!

No problem Art, it goes along with being an Elliot, I'm used to it after all these years. It's all about the L's and T's. When I was in high school my neighbor and friend's last name was Eliot. People would ask if we were brothers. Swear to god!

One thing to add to my first comment here is: just because York is getting smaller, doesn't mean you can't go and find things to buy and have a good time. Rather for those who have been going for a long time, you shouldn't be disappointed that it is shrinking, nor should you be in denial about the trend. There are still more trains than you could possibly want or buy. Probably always will be too, at least in our lifetimes.

Big_Boy_4005 posted:
Tinplate Art posted:

ELLIOT: summed it up best. There is a natural attrition at work here, and it is called LIFE (and DEATH)!...

...There are still more trains than you could possibly want or buy. Probably always will be too, at leastin our lifetimes.

And there we have, IMHO, another key to understanding what is occurring at York, "...in our lifetimes."

Lifetimes.

FrankM

As a York newbie, maybe I accidentally went to the wrong York! LOL

As I posted on the York sub-forum, My first York, I went and had a great time. But then, I have no past experiences to compare it to.

I'm glad that I went yesterday and didn't get a chance to read the OP's post first. I found very few empty tables in any of either the member or dealer halls. There was a hole in the Orange hall and I presume this is where Atlas and Lionel would have normally been. Since there was little empty display space, I'm guessing the OP is talking about the number of people walking around?

As a scale guy, I walked around for almost all of the meet with an empty bay waiting to fill it with something.  I had no luck in the member halls.  Then within the last hour, I did pick up some things in the dealer hall:

  • an Atlas Troop Sleeper, 20% of MSRP
  • a 19" Lionel 6 wheeled Pullman sleeper (old stock from a set breakup), 50% off
  • a Lionel CSX Legacy AC6000’s (from last Summer), 25% off MSRP

The above were all decent prices, but, more importantly, cross a few items off my wish list.

Although I was pressed for time, I did have a couple of great conversations with some of the folks in the member halls.  I loved looking at all the prewar tinplate, including the standard gauge sets.  I'll be going back to York and plan on joining the TCA sometime this week (didn't have time on Thursday).  Next time I hope to bring my wife along and maybe I'll even buy a prewar freight set!

Jim

Never been to York, it usually seems to happen when I am slammed at work and can't take off..maybe in the fall. Others have posted about the things that may be causing  York to shrink, the fact that the baby boom is tailing off (I am among the younger members of it, and I am in my middle 50's), the 'next generation' if it does come hasn't shown up yet (think about what 3 rail was like in the 70's and 80's, when Baby Boomers hadn't quite come back into the fold yet)) likely looms large...but there are other things to think about. For one thing, we have just come off a bomb cyclone in the midwest, that may have affected people's ability to travel to York, between snow and flooding it was pretty bad from what I hear. Other factors may be involved, it could be some people decided not to go, unsure about economics, personal or otherwise. 

The other thing to keep in mind is the social aspects of York, that was once the province only of the TCA, itself a kind of social organization. Back in the good old days, the TCA and York was a major social hub for people into trains, an excuse to meet people from all over and complain and gripe about how expensive trains are, how no one wants to work on the club layouts, etc *lol*. Seriously, it served that need (and likely still does), but that world has been replaced in part by things like this forum, facebook groups and so forth. Whether that is good or bad is moot, but it is a reality, it is just a lot easier and cheaper to do it online then going in person. Manufacturers also likely are cutting back on costs, among other things from everything I have been reading the cost of doing business in China has increased a lot and may be cutting into profit margins, even with price increases, and almost no company is not expense wary these days. 

I myself look forward to getting to York, even if it isn't as good as 'the old days'. It reminds me of a story a broadway actress told in her memoirs, she had gone to see the  broadway production of 'Man of La Mancha' after Richard Kiley had left, and she mentioned to a friend how blown away she was by the production, loved it, and her friend said "Yeah, but you shoulda seen it when Richard Kiley was in it"; as good as it may have been in the old days, how much might be missing, it still will be nice to go and experience it, even if the current cast isn't quite as good.

It is funny, I was at the Spring Thaw meet in Allentown this year, never having been there (and discovered a really good Hungarian restaurant in a nearby town), and was pretty blown away, and one long time participant told me "this is nothing", if that was nothing, in some ways I am glad I wasn't there in the old days, might have caused me to faint *lol*. 

Although I've never been and would love to go someday, I don't believe York is the barometer of today's model railroading hobby.

Over the last ten years, and especially the last five, the way that products are made available to people over the Internet and through on-line sales, and the way people buy things today, has shifted dramatically. Where years ago York might have been the place to go to find that special item or get a great deal, I can't imagine that there's much available at York that isn't also available on-line. My guess is that most, if not all of the York vendors, also have an on-line presence, as well.

Today, many people won't even drive locally to buy clothes or food, let alone model trains. The increasingly rapid closing of malls and brick 'n mortar stores proves that most people would rather stay at home to purchase what they need over the Internet rather than  even spend a few minutes on the road. Wait - those shoes I ordered on-line don't fit - no problem, I'll just send them back and the store pays the shipping both ways.

Sure, there's the camaraderie aspect of York, but can most people afford the cost of travel, lodging and food just for that - probably not. In addition, as I get older I realize that the most important commodity we have in life is time and if everything I need is available at a click of a button - well, I'm probably not going to invest all that time I going to a far-away train meet.

Attendance figures are down and will likely continue to drop - not because there's less interest in model railroading overall (I heard Lionel reported its best year last year in the last 10) - but because a lot of people either don't have the desire to go or can't afford the cost and time to go.

Just my $ .02

I've been attending York since 1988, and various other shows long before that. I've gone to shows without a penny in my pocket and had a good time. I've gone to shows with plenty of cash and not found what I was looking for, and yet, I had a good time. I have gone with the right amount of cash for an incredible find and walked out dancing. In short, I love going to train shows.

It's all in your perspective.

We are at York again.

Saw lots of friends and enjoyed being together. Met several new people.

Talked to many vendors, bought from quite a few, found most of what was on my list and a good bit that was not. The Jeep is full.

Got info about Jack Pearce for those who need it, gave him a dining car to retrofit, discussed a problem with Scott Mann, bought some ballast and a kit from Dennis Brennan, picked up some stuff from Steve Nelson, Mike Wolf helped us out with a question and Midge gave us a catalog,  Al sold us some parts for the turntable and gave us a t-shirt, Steve Breninsen at Ross had some uncouplers that we picked up, picked up a station from Harry Hieke and ate some of Vicky’s cashews...the list goes on and on. This is not a problem free hobby and it is nice to be able to put a name with a face when we are both talking on the phone/e-mailing, etc and need some help or a favor.

Food has been good and eating at Victor’s tonight which is always good.

Introduced a friend who came with me to this part of the hobby. He has enjoyed it.

York can be about negatives if you want it to be. We come to have a good time and accept that things change. I am 71. If the young people want to do something else, okay by me, especially since I can’t change it. But we are glad to see those who are here.

The good ole days are being made today too.

 

 

Guitarmike posted:

It is real simple, the baby boomers are starting to retire and die off. They represent the single largest group of people in any hobby or activity. There is nothing anyone can do about it. For the next 30 years there will be more people selling trains than buying, everything the baby boomers were part of will see a period of decline. 

If you were part of York the last 30 years or so be grateful you had the opportunity. Times change and I am sure York and model railroading will survive.

 

 

My wife just said more or less the same as we were reading these posts.

Hobbies are changing along with the generations participating.

It will be slow and gradual, but once the older generations of any of the “older” hobby’s decline, they may very well come back around.

But keep introducing the younger hobbyists to all the hobby’s or collecting interest out there.

You can’t collect a virtual hobby ,but you can a hands on.

FWIW - around 2005 I and 3 friends drove to York - from Mobile, which is on the Gulf Coast, in case you are wondering. We drove without stopping (except for the obvious) up there and back. It was an adventure. It was fun. We stayed for the whole thing (if you drive that far you are not going to leave early). Two of them eventually went back for a day visit, as a part of longer trips, some years later.

This was 2005, and a couple of guys I knew who were from Up There and had been to York a few times said "Nah, not going - York isn't much any more; you should have seen it in the Old Days". And this was 2005.

Their "old days" involved Pre- and Post-War stuff mostly. Not my thing. The only reason I went to York, or go to any train show as a customer, is what happened to 3RO since the 80's. As much as I have gotten off eBay and the like, the fun of what we did as pals is what I remember. If York was a place that I could make in a 6 - 7 hour drive or less, I'd go once a year, maybe twice.

Based on what I am hearing above, no, it couldn't be a good as 2005. There was Lionel, MTH (talked to Mike), Atlas, New Marx, 3rd Rail, K-Line, Weaver and so on and so on.....

But, if it were practical, I'd be there. If you haven't been, it's probably worth the effort, even now. But I'd never drive through the night again (I'm also older).

All those strange Up There accents, most decipherable.

Never had scrapple. 

Just got back from my 18th consecutive York.  My first York was in 2002 and it was a rat race, literally a rat race.  People were crashing into the halls and scurrying about trying to find that one piece they desired before someone else found it first.   It almost took the fun out of it.   Nevertheless, I enjoyed that first trip and all of the others since because I never saw so many trains in my entire life and I met some nice folks along the way. 

Fast forward to 2019 and a lot of things have changed.  TCA has probably lost about 30% of its all time high membership roster of about 30,000 and the biggest reason for that is simple as has already been posted-DEATH.  The Model/toy community consists of a rapidly aging and dying population and when you lose 10,000 members it will put a crimp in the numbers that attend York.    However, that being said, I'm seeing just about as many trains now at York as I did back in 2002 and that's what the main drawing card is supposed to be-TRAINS.  When I returned home today I still spent several hundred dollars because if you look hard enough there are always things you need or desire and that's exactly what I did.  What's more I hated to leave.  I enjoy it now as much as I ever did.

When I read topics like this I just shake my head in amazement.  Sometimes it almost appears as if some people get off on predicting the demise of the train hobby and in particular the York meets.  York ain't dead and neither is the train hobby.   All right, the aging process, death, internet sales have all had a negative impact on the numbers in attendance but so what.  Like I said there are still thousands of trains there and there are still thousands of people attending from all over the country.  I saw campers from as far away as Alaska, Montana, Iowa, Michigan, Minnesota, Kansas, Kentucky, Florida and Ontario.  These people still come for a reason and that reason is because they love trains and enjoy being around people who enjoy trains.  The problem is the more people who continually carp on the demise of the the York train meets it will definitely dampen the enthusiasm of those who do attend and in my opinion it probably already has. 

My feeling is this- the heck with the constant naysayers, I'm going to keep the pedal to the metal for as long as I can and will savor every moment I spend at York that I can because there will come a day that I won't be able to.   In my own way I will continue to highlight the positive benefits of the York meets and the relationships that I have forged there in the hopes that others will feel the same way and keep their pedal to the metal as well.   Bottom line-people who say that they love the hobby, enjoy trains and train meets should spend more time touting the highlights of these meets rather than the lowlights.

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