You behind the throttle... Priceless 
Originally Posted by J Daddy:
Bottom line is this Locomotive will not move until the owner passes.
Until the Executor of the estate decides what to do with it... The land under the locomotive probably has more value.
Rusty
It's an interesting contrast to simultaneously read this thread and the work-in-progress thread on N&W 611.
When we test fired the 643, we had not yet replaced the pistons and valves. Both were removed by the B&LE in the late 1950's to be able to move the engine around. When the new pistons and valves were installed later, the engine did move itself back and forth inside the Glenwood Backshops on air pressure. There was a HUGH air compressor placed on a flat car in front of the engine. The pistons were machined from new forgings and were of the Timken Light-Weight Design. The valves were made up using parts of the 15" valves from the Santa Fe engine on display in Ft. Madison, Iowa. The engine never moved itself under steam.
Mr. Bensman, That answers the question if it ever ran under steam! I believe we met a time or two while the engine was at the Glenwood shops... May I ask when you made the move on air pressure? Thank you!
Thanks for chiming in on this, Gary. Now we know what happened, from someone who was THERE when it happened.
all this has done is cloud this thread with facts.....
Originally Posted by Steamer:
all this has done is cloud this thread with facts.....
How about that.
Several more points I wanted to post about "The King" as named by Jerry Jacobson. When we dismantled the 643 for restoration to operation - there was not a spec of rust ANYWHERE on the boiler. It was the best looking boiler exterior I had seen since the NKP 755 at Conneaut - also a spotless boiler. When the locomotive was moved to the B&O Glenwood shops, Mr. Campbell had sold the engine to Mr. Ernest Stern who was our client in the restoration. We chose to run the engine on boiler flue extensions - available then a year at a time - on the original 1955 B&LE flues - which remain in the boiler to this day. Just as the restoration was nearing completion, Mr. Stern died and Mr. Campbell somehow regained ownership/control of the engine.
We were not involved in the completion of the restoration with the installation of pisotns and valves and the operation on air in 1988 if I recall.
Best wishes for the future preservation of "The King"!
Good evening. I run the Facebook page for 643 Glenn isn't motivated I had him talking to the Kiski Junction railroad and he let them slip off. My father who helps Glenn with the equipment now and then told me he's about ready to give up working with Glenn as it's going no where. I'm still gonna try and update what ever Glenn allow me to share with you guys.
Originally Posted by B&LE643:
Good evening. I run the Facebook page for 643 Glenn isn't motivated I had him talking to the Kiski Junction railroad and he let them slip off. My father who helps Glenn with the equipment now and then told me he's about ready to give up working with Glenn as it's going no where. I'm still gonna try and update what ever Glenn allow me to share with you guys.
Sorry to say but this is pretty much the Glenn I remember. I was active with the defunct Westmoreland Scenic out of Youngwood / Greensburg PA and we had some dealings with Glenn. He was quite excited to possibly moved the engine out of Pittsburgh to our location but extremely light on specifics such as how he was going to pay for the move, how was the engine to be made operable again, and where it would be stored since we didn't have a fenced in siding. I did get down to check the engine out a few times when it was still under roof but nothing came to pass. I realy don't think it would have been a good fit anyway as the curves we ran on where awful tight for a ten driver loco of that size, and even the general question of weight limitations wasn't (to my recollection ) completely answered. Glenn seemed eager for a place to use the engine but light on how to actually make it happen. I wish him and anyone else involved with this machine the best of luck but I doubt much progress will be made until Glenn passes control of this machine on to someone with more vision and more resources.
Go to the 11:43 mark in the video below.
That's the way the 643 ought to look, sitting in the Age of Steam Roundhouse. The Burlington lines are apparent in this side view. Thank you for posting, Dave, and reminding us of better days.
Just cut it up and be done with it. Nobody will ever move it from where it is. But facts are facts. Scrap it so we can stop talking about it.
Originally Posted by david1:
Just cut it up and be done with it. Nobody will ever move it from where it is. But facts are facts. Scrap it so we can stop talking about it.
Then folks will be moaning about the heartless owner or scrapper cutting it up.
Rusty
I recall the words of Eubie Blake, a Tin Pan Alley song writer, who was rediscoverd after a long period of obscurity, at the age of 98! He said, "Stick around awhile. The ****dest things can happen". Maybe somewhere in there lies hope for #643.
Yes !!!
I would love to take a shot at moving the 643. I moved the Pullman hopper in Butler,PA and the S2 engine (Think that is the model those switchers all look the same to me) in Meadville PA. Does anyone have weights available if it were to be taken out in pieces?
Firewood posted:Wow, magnificent beast.
It's a shame the rail connection is gone. The restoration realities will be pretty nasty.
I would imagine there is tube corrosion by now, probably at the smokebox end, and corresponding tube sheet damage. It would take a lot of funds to even get her to the hydrostatic test point, way before the heavy lifters show up.
Sir, The stack has a steel plate tact welded on. And before a hydrostatic test is done, the group really should find a railroad to operate it on. Or it will be a waist of time and money. The 643 was fully restored in 1988. At that time Glenn had plans of taking it down to Western Maryland, but plans change when the late Jack Shearwater (Not sure I spelled his name correct) Snuck in and pushed Glenn out. Glenn than was looking at getting another line in North Western PA. but Conrail sold the line off to Rail to Trails instead of Glenn. I received this information from Glenn him self.
Hope to hear more good and most important ,credible news, about the #643. Could she run at Steam Town?
I don't know if I'd call anything from Glenn Campbell or "Lenny" credible. Mr. Campbell has been delusional about 643's future for a LONG time...
If Mr. Campbell wants to do something that will exist beyond his life expectancy and at the same time leave a legacy, he should arrange to donate the engine to someone who has the resources to move it where it can be displayed indoors. And he should do it soon so that he can see the result of that donation.
I agree with Rich that it is impractical to operate the engine for many reasons, so a cosmetic restoration seems to be the best bet. Moving the engine might be difficult but not impossible. The weight of 523,000 lb. is the weight "in working order". I do not know what the "dry weight", less water, fuel, and sand is, but it would be substantially lower. If the UP can relocate a Big Boy, this should be doable.
The engine was stored in the B&LE roundhouse in Greenville, PA for years, and seemed to me to be in pretty good shape, but probably not in mechanical shape for operation. As for saving this engine, there are only a few 2-10-4's preserved, at least one ATSF engine, the T&P engine, and I believe a CPR in Canada.
In September 1970, I had the good fortune to see the 2-10-4, 0-10-2 and 2-8-0 in the roundhouse at Greenville, PA, along with a business car. A buddy of mine knew for us to go to the business office. I believe we signed a waiver and a clerk stopped what he was doing and walked us to the roundhouse. Everything was intact and only covered with a layer of dust. I believe there was an index card on the duplex steam gauge in the cab with the a message typed on it "do not remove anything from this locomotive by order of the Supt of Motive Power" or something like that. Unbelievable. I believe the situation in Belen, NM with the ATSF 4-8-4 and 2-10-4 was almost identical.
That same week I rode around Horseshoe Curve with NKP 759 unassisted with 15 passenger cars. The following day we crawled over and around the two standard gauge EBT 0-6-0's in the Mount Union enginehouse. A day or two later we visited Roanoke and saw three notable things: 1- two Y6b locomotives and one Y-6 tender in the one Roanoke scrap yard; 2- saw the LOST ENGINES OF ROANOKE in a second scrap yard, 3- Class A 1218 was in the paint shop, ready to be painted for its delivery to the Transportation Museum in Wasena Park. An unforgettable week.
And to think that when these 2-10-4s were hauling coal north and iron ore south the B&LE main was about 3/4 of a mile from our family farm where I spent most weekends in warm weather. Never saw one. We couldn't hear them either even at night. My dad and grandfather weren't in to trains. We did have a steam loco bell by the back door for years until hunters stole it.
Although the rail grade has changed, I don't see why with a bulldozer and some effort another temporary connection could not be made with live rail, along with a temporary switch. . Afterwards the grade would be restored and the switch removed. It's no rocket-ship construction project.
Tommy posted:Although the rail grade has changed, I don't see why with a bulldozer and some effort another temporary connection could not be made with live rail, along with a temporary switch. . Afterwards the grade would be restored and the switch removed. It's no rocket-ship construction project.
And you really thing that CSX would allow THAT?
From what I have read about 643, even IF you could get it out of there with lots of $$ to get it running, the engine is heavy and uses too much coal for excursions.
Tommy posted:Although the rail grade has changed, I don't see why with a bulldozer and some effort another temporary connection could not be made with live rail, along with a temporary switch. . Afterwards the grade would be restored and the switch removed. It's no rocket-ship construction project.
For a one-time move like this, they would not install a switch. That is far too much work for a one-time move. The main line rails would be cut and moved over to connect with the rails where the locomotive sits. That requires a track crew, an operating crew, several company officers on-site and at least one diesel locomotive. Moving the track will require a couple of hoppers of ballast and several pieces of panel track. When all the track is in place, move the steam locomotive out, then move the main line rails back and re-connect them. It's not easy and it's an all-day job.
This is not on some little-used branch line. This is on CSX's primary main line between the east coast and the Chicago/St. Louis gateways. More than 40 trains a day go by this spot. Do you really think they would agree to shut down this line for the better part of a day to do this? Can you imagine what that would cost? I can see the fully burdened cost of getting this locomotive out to the CSX main line reaching to 6-figures.
You have got to remember that railroading is a BUSINESS. What does the railroad tell the hundreds of customers whose freight will be delayed because of this move? What about the Amtrak trains that use this route? What do you tell them...and who pays the penalties when those Amtrak trains are late?
No railroad is going to shut down a primary main line for several hours for a move like this unless someone is going to pay for it...every penny.
Tommy posted:Although the rail grade has changed, I don't see why with a bulldozer and some effort another temporary connection could not be made with live rail, along with a temporary switch. . Afterwards the grade would be restored and the switch removed. It's no rocket-ship construction project.
Nor is it as simple as it is in model railroading.
To see how such things are done, I present this issue of IRM's Rail & Wire magazine:
http://www.irm.org/railwire/rw154.html
Click on IRM's Biggest Challenge
It's how you move a piece of heavy metal to tracks above street level.
Rusty
When the property was still connected to live rail, getting it out was a possibility, but a slim one even then.
The thing that scares me is someday, the property will be sold out form under the loco, then the classic, "It's gotta be moved yesterday or we're calling the scrappers" call gets made (which is often followed by stalling, the process repeats, then horrific photo get posted online of the remains after the torch has gone to work, and public outcry that the mythical 'someone' should have done something....)
645 posted:...a crane will also be needed to lift the 643 as part of this process and again at destination to unload it as well which is more time and money required for this task should anyone want to take it on. No other way 643 can leave the site as trucking it out is near impossible as explained earlier in this thread.
As heavy as this thing is, it would still be cheaper and easier to lift this locomotive and move it to a flat car on the main with cranes than it would be to cut the main track and move it over. But even that process will shut this main track down for several hours!
Face it...once CSX removed the switch, this locomotive's fate was sealed. I predict that it will never move anywhere and will eventually be cut up on site. I hope I'm wrong.
You need two cranes. A Tadano GK550XL-2 rents for $8,000 a month. Capacity 230 tons. Plus two union operators. Plus ground crew, Panel track to edge of mainline, $40,000. Labor costs are expensive. Small dozer, $2,000. Estimated additional labor costs $40,000. Then there is the blockage of the line. I see no reason it should take more than ten hours to transfer from panel track to flatcar(s).. Then there are rail service costs. Doable.
Alternative to bothering CSX with something they'll never do, why not disassemble the loco into as many smaller pieces as practical and move it by heavy truck? Boiler, frame, drivers, engine truck, trailing truck, and tender...
I haven't looked at GOogle maps lately, but I seem to remember there being issues with the ability to get trucks into and out of the area.. I'll have to peruse it from overhead...
still have to come up with a ton of $$....and get the owner to sell.
Clearly it will take 6-figure money just to get this locomotive TO a rail line.
It will take a lot more 6-figure money to make it serviceable again. And when it's all done, what do you have? You've got a huge, heavy and ungainly freight hog that likely has not been over 30 mph in its life that will be too heavy for most regionals and short lines to operate. How does the entity that paid for all the work get its investment back? The answer? They don't.
There is no financial reason to do anything with this locomotive other than scrap it in place. Glenn had his chance to sell it to the Age of Steam Roundhouse several years ago, when the switch was still there. That opportunity is gone now and will not come again.
The only way this locomotive survives is for a rich "Sugar Daddy" to come forward. He'll have to be prepared to sink a half-million dollars into this thing...a half million he will never get back. I don't know anyone like that, do you?
Ok, after looking at the roads, you can get out of there with a maximum of 13' 6". The biggest obstacle is the weight. Maximum loading appears to be 80,000#. I'm sure the bare boiler of this bruiser is 100k# or better... the bare frame wouldn't be an issue nor none of the parts other than the tender... Maybe there's special permits for moves like this..
For what it's worth, there seems to be a decent supply of fans for this engine. It has its own Facebook page, and there are at least 10 people on the forum who are interested in seeing this locomotive saved (myself included). I do not disagree that it would be difficult to move the locomotive. However, it is possible to raise enough money to move the engine (via one of the aforementioned solutions) partly via a GoFundMe or equivalent crowdfunding site, and partly through the generosity of Rich's "sugar daddies." GoFundme efforts work; the Santa Fe 2926 crew in Albuquerque was able to raise much of the money they needed to construct an engine house through a GoFundMe page.
I don't profess to be an expert in moving steam locomotives. However, I think there might be another way to move the engine straight out of McKees Rocks. As per Steam Fan's suggestion, a crew of volunteers could disassemble the locomotive into major components. Instead of moving the components out via CSX, the cranes could lift the major components onto flatcars on the Pittsburgh and Ohio Central's adjacent branchline. I know that the POHC is used once a day, if that, from personal experience. Rich would know this better than I, but if the POHC can haul industrial-size electrical transformers along its mainline, I would think the track and clearances would be up to the task of handling the 643. From what I can recall, there isn't too much of a height differential between Robb street and the mainline.
It's not perfect, I know. I'd welcome critiques. All of this, of course, presupposes that the owner of the 643 is willing to sell.
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