The Pennsylvania Railroad T1 Steam Locomotive Trust

Soon is a relative term... 

 

It took about 15 years to build the Tornado and that's a much smaller locomotive.

 

And even if they have commitments from Steamtown and Cuyahoga Valley to run this thing 15-20 years from now, are the curves on those lines large enough to handle the large rigid wheelbase?  The T1 pretty much ran on Pennsy's west end where the curves and grade are easy

 

Rusty

Remember the speed here.  T1 should do fine on those curves, but there could be other clearance issues.  She should fit almost anywhere 611 would go.

Here we go again. ... there isn't a foundry left in the States big enough to make the castings for the frame. ... Nice to dream though.

I'm putting my money where my mouth is and backing the project. It will never get anywhere without support. I am happy to give up a little of my train budget for the possibility of seeing a T-1 on the rails. 

Foundries of that size are no longer required, what with today's forging and welding technology, there would be no problem producing drive wheel centers, cylinders and other larger pieces. The new complete cylinder/cylinder saddle for that new 3-cylinder Pacific in England was made-up from castings, forgings, and weldments, all done in Germany. The new boiler was also manufactured in Germany.  

J Daddy - Check their website.  I think I remember reading that they have already addressed this "problem".  Also, note the people they have "on-board."  Many true experts in the steam field, including Wes Camp, Gary Bensman, and Wayne York.  It's a long shot, but not impossible, IMHO.

Rusty, the T-1s ran all the way east to Harrisburg. There are loads of photos of the engine change between them and GG1s.

 

The two prototypes had problems on the curve at the east end of the Allegheny River Bridge, just west of Pennsylvania Station in Pittsburgh, on the PFtW&C. Timetables showed that they and the S-1 were prohibited on that curve. The production models were never restricted from operating through Pittsburgh.

 

The DL&W was no trolley line. I don't think the curves around Scranton are any worse than those found on the PRR between Altoona and Johnstown.

I saw a T1 running southbound (rr east) in to Baltimore on the Northern Central in about 1950-51 as I was riding on the school bus around 8-8:30 one morning. The bus was crossing the Jones Falls and the PRR tracks on what was probably Belvedere Avenue. Baltimorons will know where I mean. This location is about 5 miles north of Baltimore's Pennsylvania Station and today provides light rail service over the former PRR right of way.

 

Over the years I have had numerous PRR experts tell me I am incorrect - T1's never ran in to Baltimore and what I saw must have been a K6 ie a highly modified K4 with 8 drivers, 4 cylinders, and a 4 wheel firebox truck in addition to a streamlined shroud and a 16 wheel welded tender.

 

I tell them to check the PRRT&HS Keystone magazines from past years. An article discussed the fact that the T1's were tested by PRR between Philadelphia and Baltimore. The locomotives were backed from Baltimore station to Orangeville (Baltimore's engine servicing facility) where they were turned on a wye since the turntable was insufficient to turn a T1.

Looks like quite an impressive project.

 

The voice on that video sounded sort of familiar, could that be someone we know from right here on the OGR forum?

I have no inside knowledge or trying to start something, but the narrator of the video link sounds a lot like Rich Melvin

I was thinking the same thing. That was the forum member I was referring to above.

Oddly enough, one of the K6 PRR steamers survived and is today stashed away safely in a barn in Michigan.....or was that the New York Central Hudson? !

It was the poppet valve equipped S2 Niagara. Try to keep up, will ya?

Which one will see the rails first.....K-4 1361 or the T-1. Sorry for being negative, but I don't think we will  ever see either one.

I'll be worm food before this happens.  It's nice to dream, but that's all it is.

 

I presume that the engines (6110, 6111 and 5525-5549) were accepted from Baldwin right at their plant. I've seen pics of them at Eddystone with all rods on and under steam. It's possible that they made break in runs between there and Baltimore before heading west. Perhaps they sent them up the Northern Central to Harrisburg, rather than going through Philadelphia and out the main line. They were big engines and may have had clearance issues in the Philly terminal area.

I think I will start a fund to put NYC Pennsylvania Station back.

I'll sell you the land. Cheap.

I recently made a tax deductible donation to restore the C&O 1309 2-6-6-2, the work is half done already and the steamer is expected to be running excusions on the Western Maryland Scenic Railroad in 2016. Here is a link:

 

https://www.movingfullsteamahead.com/

Rich has a great voice tone for narrating. He sounds great in the new Lionel 765. A few weeks ago I watched a video on the web about gandy dancers and it sounded like Rich narrating that. I tried to find it again but had no luck. I don't believe it was on youtube. I thought maybe the Lionel website, but couldn't find it there ether.

Why would anyone even support this effort. It's not a real T1. None were ever saved from the scrap pile.

 

It would be nothing but a replication of a once great engine. 

 

 

Seems pretty ambitious, but not impossible. 

 

I guess the people who want to see a replica of the T1 come to life will support this, and the rest of us can go about our daily lives and not worry about it.

 

A T1 isn't my cup of tea, but if there was a serious attempt to build a J3a Hudson I'd be donating.

 

Jeff C

Don't assume your feelings are representative of the rest of us.

 

Since, as you point out, there are none surviving the next best thing is to build one. I wouldn't call a engine built from original plans a "replica" personally.

 

So I should assume that if they build it that you won't go see it or take a ride behind it?

 

I'm 41 so I have plenty of time, but even if I was older I would want to be part of something like this so it could be passed on to my children and grandchildren. Hopefully there are more people that feel that way too.

 

It amazes me that people will spend thousands of dollars a year on model trains, but can't throw $10, $20, $100 , etc... at a project like this. I hope everyone realizes how the KickStarter campaign works... You "pledge" your amount and you only actually send the money IF the project hits its goal. So my pledge costs me nothing unless this project hits $20K. Not to mention you get cool swag too.

 

Part of the appeal, to at least some people, is the opportunity to set the record straight on the T1.  Popular railroad press since the late '40s says this locomotive is a complete basket case, and a totally useless waste of capital.   Seems every author since then has picked up the same mantra and perpetuated the story on and on.  But it's here, that the logic breaks down.  As noted NYCS author Al Stauffer once said "There's something about this whole T1 story that just doesn't compute...Are we supposed to believe that the two prototypes were gems, and the fifty production engines, stones??".  If anything, the truth is most likely just the opposite.  The Penn spent a fortune testing and de-bugging this model before the 5500s were laid down. Changing priorities at the very top levels of Pennsy management, especially with regards to passenger service and specifically competition with the Central,  pulled the rug out from under the T1 before the fleet was even built!   To be sure, there were real issues.  For the ultra conservative Penn, the T1 was a huge step forward...at a time when this was the last thing they needed.   A whole boatload of disasters landed in the T1's lap in a hugely short order. In the end, there was no time, no money, and no interest in fixing whatever real issues the T1 presented.   Quick!....Let's try to sell some of 'em off to the N&W !   To get a clearer picture, one must obtain some of the T1 issues of the Keystone from the last fifteen years.  Actual operators tell of a thoroughly capable machine when handled intelligently.  To be sure, the T1 was a hot rod, and this is doubly true on the Penn.  Indeed, they boasted the highest percentage of "aftermarket" parts of anything on the roster.  These girls were anything but a cheap date! 

"There you go again Moriarty with those negative waves man!"

 

Go try to pass that way of thinking off to the "Shelby American" people...and, all of those steam enthusiasts over in the U.K.

Replica engines are just that, a replica. It was not built by the long ago engineers who struggled to get it right. 

 

But you guys can donate to this project all you want but they will not get a dime from me.

 

There are so many  steam engines sitting in museums and other places that deserve to be rebuilt like a K4 and many, many others. 

 

This is from memory and some of my details may be suspect but the incredible speed I do remember.

 

There's a wonderful story in Trains Magazine back in the 1970s about a last run on one of them from Crestview OH into Ft Wayne I think it was. A K4 passenger train was having locomotive trouble so a lone, dirty, T1 was readied from the back lot to take over when the train arrived. The story was written by the fireman and he related how the engineer told him that "This is likely the last time we will ever have a chance at one of these, so let's take her out and see what she'll really do".

Their trip was exhilarating to say the least. On the last stretch of about 35 miles they covered the distance at better than two miles per second,  er MINUTE pulling a decent length passenger/mail train. Upon their arrival the station master called them on the carpet for their stunt but winked at them as they left his office...

If you can find the article it is a great read!

Regardless of it being a replica and the new builders having all the drawings, I bet there are some tricks to building these things that are long forgotten. Knowledge that has passed on, along with the old timers that built them. Much of the knowledge of many of these old crafts are not so easy to duplicate, even with today's modern technology. I think there will be just as many problems getting this one right as there was with the originals. Possibly even more? Things may have to be re-learned that may not be readily available from the plans alone.

I believe that T1 story in TRAINS was in 1991 sometime, unless there were two different but similar accounts.  In that instance the crew got up to 123 MPH, as was figured out. OTOH, I really like that two mile per second top end, making the T a sure winner at the Bonneville salt flats.  Hello, Craig Breedlove !

You may be correct about the 1991 issue jaygee. I came across my mine last year and hopefully still have it just for that story. Do you remember when the actual event occurred perchance?

It's hard to imagine a huge steamer attaining (and sustaining) speeds like that when considering the myriad of moving parts. The Mighty T1 surely is among the top contenders for highest speed.

1991 sounds about correct to me. Written by John Crosby I believe and the color drawing associated with the article had the T1 going left to right. Very worn and bedraggled looking with a torn curtain/diaphragm  between the locomotive and tender.

In many years past, there has been a LOT of mis-information written and published in Trains Magazine, concerning the PRR T1 locomotives. Anyone desiring to read the TRUTH about the PRR T1, please refer to the extensive article published in Classic Trains Magazine, by Mr. David Stephenson. It is an excellent article, well researched, and deals in documented facts. One of the biggest issues with the T1 locomotives was the general lack of QUALIFIED Engenmen. The vast majority of the "average Engineer" on the PRR, was NOT experienced in operating super power steam locomotives equipped with a front-end throttle.

Two miles per second is 120 miles a minute or 7200 miles per hour. Considering the speed of sound at sea level on a standard day (temperature dependent and more complicated to calculate than I can explain) around 761 mile per hour,  the T1 was going over 9 times the speed of sound. I don't think the T1 could go that fast.

 

I think it is more likely the T1 was going about 2 miles a minute, which is 120 miles per hour.

 Lot's of If's,and's and but's here ,BUT ...if and when the funds would ever happen,could they just down size the proportions to accommodate rail curvatures and clearance issues and maybe save a few dollars ? 

 

 Great idea hope the project comes to light

 

 

I was asked to narrate this video, but I'm not involved with the T1 project. I have my hands full with the 765!

Anyone who has ever seen the machining drawing for a GSC one piece engine bed knows that a build up bed using welding techniques will be quite a challenge. Welding technology has advanced enormously since the WWII era, but the ability to achieve and maintain the required tolerances on a single piece this long and this large would still be a real challenge, in my opinion. I do wish them well. The PRR T1 was certainly "one of the great ones" for several reasons. However, I have several engines on my personal list that I have a greater desire to see again, especially a NYC J-3A Super Hudson.

One hell of a sonic boom I bet. The doppler effect on the whistle would be awesome!

 

Jerry