The resurrection of the TMCC upgrade

Wouldn't it be best to see what the "resurrection" looks like, then discuss it?

Kind of hard to discuss the future of a TMCC upgrade when nothing was offered with regards to any kind of future other than ongoing discussions.  I suppose I will be guardedly pessimistic.

To me the only real solution would be for Lionel to offer some type of Legacy system, rather it be from them or thru a third party. If TMCC is so old wouldn't it make more sense to go to the operating system which is now current. 

I think they want this all to blow over and then say the deal fell through. Again I agree with NECRails, let pick this after the summer and see what happens.

Lionel responded to the outcry - great!

The ERR boards (some?) look likely to continue under another company - great!

Lionel is continuing to look at pulling their control systems into one suite of products with modern electronic implementation and perhaps enhanced inter-operability- also great!

Pretty good outcome to what looked like a disaster to some, IMO.   But we will have to wait to see what actually happens, but at least things look more optimistic.

Hmmmm. Wonder who that third party is???

See the sky ain't falling. I be live he was sincere in what he said. I don't think any company would throw away something that helps them. Ken is retiring and parts are getting difficult to get but there is always a work around. Let's just sit back stop speculating and see what happens.

Still wondering about that third party?  Maybe an old employee who knows.

OK. Let’s see what happens. 

Personally, comments on this for me is and are useless until and if I see ERR products are again available. As many products, many take years to reach consumer, and many times never. But if within this year it comes about, nothing but praise for listening to  us, the Hobbyist and will show Lionel does listen and care for their consumers.

Wait and see stance.

Go and read Jon Z's posting on the ElectricRR business.  Essentially a one man operation and that guy (Ken) is retiring.  Perhaps one or both of the OEMs that consume Lionel's production of the boards will recognize there is a business opportunity selling the boards.  Or perhaps, Lionel will decide to stock the boards as parts without Ken's expertise and support so those of us with the necessary installation acumen can still obtain the parts.

Hopefully a good outcome.  Wait and see. 

I believe its damage controls like one one the forum members said in time they will note a deal fell through and that will be that 

If only I was about five years older, I might want to take this on. And maybe experience laying out PCBs. I only did schematics, not layouts.

I need a lie down. Crack a cold one if you’ve got one.

Will see what happens.

Nick

Like others, read the post from Don Olsen and see it as a positive.  Only time will tell, but I remain an optimistic mind, if only for the several more engines I have in line for the ERR upgrades.  Really glad I made the acquisitions I did on the upgrades in March.  Now, will simply wait and see while I do other improvements and repairs to my roster as I can, until then.  I was beginning to think about, and was going to ask in a post, whether 3rd Rail, Scott, is still performing the TMCC upgrades on older QSI equipped engines?  I have 3 very nice 3rd Rail from late 1990s to upgrade, may still perform myself, just at a later date.

Jesse    TCA

I don't understand all the cynicism.

Lionel made a business decision (perhaps not thinking through all of its ramifications for hobbyists); we voiced our disappointment and concerns very loudly; Lionel was listening and decided to seek a way for ERR upgrade kits to continue to be available--isn't that what we asked for?  They believe they have found a third party to do this (an arrangement that has not been finalized, but which they think is likely to work out). Their president, Howard Hitchcock, was very open in explaining all this in a lengthy open letter.

I think that Lionel made a mistake in not making this part of their original business decision regarding ERR. But all companies--and people--make mistakes. Now they are seeking to correct that mistake. What more is there to reasonably ask of Lionel? Instead of responding with cynicism, shouldn't we be applauding them for listening to us and changing course?

Cheers!

Keith

At the very least, someone heard us, so that's a positive sign.  I'm pessimistic, but I have hope.   Other than parts going obsolete, I don't see that the ERR line needed a lot of engineering, the current versions of the popular boards work pretty well in all the cases I've seen, and I've done a lot of upgrades.  There are occasionally some interesting interface issues, but that just adds to the fun.

Lionel’s team of talented engineers have been hard at work on an enhanced platform hardware and code that leverages all of the positive things about each of our current platforms and will allow all of our technology (TMCC, Legacy, LionChief and Bluetooth) to remain viable well into the next decade.  By creating a platform that is easier to use, more efficient, more easily manufactured, able to communicate through the full range of O Gauge products offered (Ready-to-Run starter sets through Vision level product) Lionel will advance the industry standard platform in O Gauge and ensure a future for this hobby and Lionel.

The short term part about a new third party is good in my eyes, but it does reiterate that parts obsolescence is a big factor, as Jon Z had suggested in his post in the old thread.  It sounded like the obsolescence is still on the not too distant horizon, but not as drastic as the previous announcement of mid-May 2018.

The paragraph above from Howard's letter sounds interesting.  Everything in my next paragraphs is jut me thinking out load and wondering what could happen, so take it with a grain of salt! 

If that "enhanced platform hardware and code" may end up being able to be a new upgrade path offered to consumers, it could be a positive thing.  If a new design is possible that actually can do all of the different features with one set of hardware, but possibly be programmed to be either a TMCC, Legacy, LionChief, Bluetooth (or combination thereof) functionally, it could be useful, but I can't guess what the cost for such a flexible solution might be.

Something like this could mean the boards are all the same physically, but programmed to be either standard TMCC (for upgrades), Legacy with Blue Tooth (for high end Lionel products), or LionChief with Bluetooth (for lower end starter set products).  Maybe even the Legacy version might be able to be offered, if the customer was to be willing to pay more for it than a TMCC upgrade enabled board.

For anyone familiar with electronic test equipment, I'm thinking of this like an analogy to a piece of equipment that may from a hardware perspective, have the full capabilities of a fully loaded, all options purchased unit.  The manufacturer simply programs the unit to include the options purchased when you buy it, but all the capability is really included in the underlying hardware in all units.

Granted, those types of solutions are generally in hardware that costs tens of thousands of dollars, or even up to a couple hundred thousand dollars, but if that method is possible on a smaller scale, it would be very interesting.

It would be extremely impressive if such a thing could be offered at similar price points to ERR (or slightly above), or possibly even different price points depending on what is enabled.  Previous posts in the other thread indicated Lionel had actually begun to sell Legacy boards, which I had been unaware of.

My fear of what we will lose will be the older stuff for AC motors, which is why I tried to order a single AC Commander for an engine I might like to do sometime.  Since all the new engines are DC cans, I would imagine AC motors may not easily fit into the equation there (but maybe the engineers at Lionel are thinking up a way - even if it was a separate board to go with my fictional "master" board I describe above.  I'd also wonder about any other non-engine boards that might be too much engineering to re-design.

Again, all just my random thought on what could maybe happen, at least in my attempt at positive thinking here.

-Dave

A board that encompasses all the technologies, while possible, certainly won't be less expensive I would imagine.

I will pause on any purchase until the jury is in with a positive result.

gunrunnerjohn posted:

A board that encompasses all the technologies, while possible, certainly won't be less expensive I would imagine.

Agreed.  The possible advantage being that if it is a single design and mass produced in larger quantities, it may be a benefit. 

I'd really not expect it to be as low as the ERR boards cost, but comparing it to ERR boards becomes meaningless when the ERR boards use parts that can no longer be acquired from the semiconductor or component houses.

Like I said, my scenario is at the moment totally theoretical and/or fictional, I'm just thinking out loud about possibilities.

-Dave

Disclaimer: 99.9 percent a conventional PW guy that runs trains with a ZW so this entire saga doesn't affect me (I have a handful of LC+ locos that I also enjoy), but am pulling for all you guys that have a vested interest, short and long term. I hope it works out. 

I'm usually a glass half full guy so will give Lionel the benefit of the doubt for now. 

What components would become obselete.From what I see on the boards you have the following .   Scr/triads     Capacitors  resistors,Intergrated circuits, Are they going to stop making these type of components.    I forgot wire and connectors

I speculate someone will license and release Legacy gear instead and we'll all be glad they do, and/or DCC will gain in popularity.  

I must be missing something. Maybe someone can help.  If Lionel can still produce the boards for Atlas and 3rd Rail and sell them to those companies, why cant they sell them to the public too?  Is it a different board that they make for those companies?  Admittedly, I did not read EVERY post, but if they can supply them to some, why not all?

thank you

rvhirailer posted:

I must be missing something. Maybe someone can help.  If Lionel can still produce the boards for Atlas and 3rd Rail and sell them to those companies, why cant they sell them to the public too?  Is it a different board that they make for those companies?  Admittedly, I did not read EVERY post, but if they can supply them to some, why not all?

thank you

Did you read this part?

"As many of you are aware, on Friday April 20th, Dave Olson - Lionel’s Director of Engineering, announced at the Legacy Users Group meeting in York that Lionel would effectively end the sale of the Electric Railroad (ERR) Upgrade kits to consumers in May of this year.  He also stated that Lionel would continue to endeavor to support the existing OEM manufactures (Atlas & Sunset Models / 3^rd Rail) who utilize the Electric Railroad technology moving forward with boards to support their products in market. "

That wording to me suggests the current design may be in jeopardy at some point for the OEMs as well.  Maybe not today, but at some point.  As others have stated the boards are the same.

-Dave

It’s interesting to note Lionel is in talks relative to distributing select ERR product to consumers with no manufacturing statement.  Sounds like there may be no redesigns to support parts obsolescence?  I also didn’t read any words suggesting other engine upgrade boards.  Lionel did talk about an enhanced hardware platform and code which would support TMCC, Legacy, Lionchief, Bluetooth and starter sets.  One could envision hand held devices like tablets & phones communicating with an enhanced hardware platform (ie. black box) which would talk to the above technologies plus interface with LCS.

acoastline posted:

What components would become obselete.From what I see on the boards you have the following .   Scr/triads     Capacitors  resistors,Intergrated circuits, Are they going to stop making these type of components.    I forgot wire and connectors

Integrated circuits is a very broad category.  I am absolutely certain that there have been many thousands of various integrated circuits discontinued by the company that produced them.  I can't see why the ones used in these boards would be immune to such a thing happening at some point.

shorling posted:

It’s interesting to note Lionel is in talks relative to distributing select ERR product to consumers with no manufacturing statement.  Sounds like there may be no redesigns to support parts obsolescence?  I also didn’t read any words suggesting other engine upgrade boards.  Lionel did talk about an enhanced hardware platform and code which would support TMCC, Legacy, Lionchief, Bluetooth and starter sets.  One could envision hand held devices like tablets & phones communicating with an enhanced hardware platform (ie. black box) which would talk the above technologies plus interface with LCS.

Stated pretty clearly in Howard's letter.  If the factory can substitute parts, OK, but Lionel is not re-engineering the boards:

"It is important to understand that Lionel will not be investing any additional engineering resources into the ERR line of products.  The factory may in the near term be able to interchange suitable component parts in order to continue to produce boards and avoid part obsolesce issues, however there will come a day where this option will no longer be available."

Lets try not to over think this.  It is IMO a positive sign that they heard us and are at minimal looking into keeping ERR alive in some form of 3rd party deal. 

I am with Derek in thanking Howard, Dave, Jon, and other at Lionel that have listened and formulated a plan.  It's a small step but it is better than we were 24 hours ago.

I want to thank everyone here who took the time to write Lionel in a civil way that garnered their attention.  It obviously did some good.   Let's take a breather and see where we go from here.

Engineering does part substitutions not manufacturing.

acoastline posted:

What components would become obselete.From what I see on the boards you have the following .   Scr/triads     Capacitors  resistors,Intergrated circuits, Are they going to stop making these type of components.    I forgot wire and connectors

As a guy that designs boards, and has for some time, I can tell you that when a "specific" IC or similar part goes obsolete, sometimes it takes significant rework to use a replacement.  At the very least, even with my little enhancement products, I've had a couple of parts that were no longer made and I had to make a board change to use a replacement. 

When I worked in aerospace, parts obsolescence was a constant headache, some of those systems were designed for a 20 year lifespan, and toward the end of a production cycle, there was frequently a re-spin of the board(s) necessary to update for obsolete parts.

That being said, I didn't see any major parts on the Cruise Commander that were obsolete, but something like the opto-couplers might be, that would require a board change for the new footprint in some cases.

Dave45681 posted:

shorling posted:

It’s interesting to note Lionel is in talks relative to distributing select ERR product to consumers with no manufacturing statement.  Sounds like there may be no redesigns to support parts obsolescence?  I also didn’t read any words suggesting other engine upgrade boards.  Lionel did talk about an enhanced hardware platform and code which would support TMCC, Legacy, Lionchief, Bluetooth and starter sets.  One could envision hand held devices like tablets & phones communicating with an enhanced hardware platform (ie. black box) which would talk the above technologies plus interface with LCS.

Stated pretty clearly in Howard's letter.  If the factory can substitute parts, OK, but Lionel is not re-engineering the boards:

"It is important to understand that Lionel will not be investing any additional engineering resources into the ERR line of products.  The factory may in the near term be able to interchange suitable component parts in order to continue to produce boards and avoid part obsolesce issues, however there will come a day where this option will no longer be available."

 

Thank you Dave, I think the hardest pill to swallow here is that Lionel will produce this board for Atlas and 3rd rail but not for me.  Why?

After my work episode today I am glad to have some good news !

ERR is too good of a product to lose, basic,robust and easy to install.

I am glad Lionel heard our voices.

It seems quite clear that the current TMCC system will eventually be going away. For everyone.  That doesn't mean that they will not have an omni-board that functions for both Bluetooth and Legacy (they do now) and a converter box that allows Bluetooth signaling from a cab-1/cab-2. Or maybe from a DCC handheld too . 

They also will sell this board to Atlas and 3rd Rail and make a little profit and economies of scale. Although Atlas and 3rd Rail are probably together less than 5% of the O three rail market, I'd guess.

JohnGaltLines who hasn't posted in almost a year had a mockup converter box that he said worked to operate a LionChief loco from a cab-1, so the reverse (controlling TMCC/Legacy from a LionChief or Bluetooth app) is likely possible and not necessarily all that difficult.

Lots of things are no doubt technically possible, and Lionel will do one of them, based upon feasibility, cost and function. That's what Hitchcock is saying as far as I can tell. I'm happy to wait and see. And while I wait,

I'll go out and feed my horses and lubricate the wagon wheels .

It will be sometime before we know how all of this is going to shake out. If and when there is a 3rd party making tmcc boards how long will they be produced? How much will they be? 

There are allot of questions that Lionel has to answer and that will take 6 months to a year before they are answered. 

Dave

To me this is the really intriguing and promising stuff:

"Lionel’s team of talented engineers have been hard at work on an enhanced platform hardware and code that leverages all of the positive things about each of our current platforms and will allow all of our technology (TMCC, Legacy, LionChief and Bluetooth) to remain viable well into the next decade. "

Landsteiner posted:

To me this is the really intriguing and promising stuff:

"Lionel’s team of talented engineers have been hard at work on an enhanced platform hardware and code that leverages all of the positive things about each of our current platforms and will allow all of our technology (TMCC, Legacy, LionChief and Bluetooth) to remain viable well into the next decade. "

 

It certainly does sound good.....

rvhirailer posted:

I must be missing something. Maybe someone can help.  If Lionel can still produce the boards for Atlas and 3rd Rail and sell them to those companies, why cant they sell them to the public too?  Is it a different board that they make for those companies?  Admittedly, I did not read EVERY post, but if they can supply them to some, why not all?

thank you

That’s my question?