The resurrection of the TMCC upgrade

josef posted:

GGG posted:

The full treatment at current ERR prices was $300 in parts.  .  G

It usually cost me to install ERR Cruise, sound and couplers around 200.00 in parts for an engine and I've converted or added ERR in 6 of my engines.

Were is the 300.00 in parts come from?

Cruise CDR $120; Railsounds $85-90 depending on Type; Couplers if need $10ea; Light bulbs or LED if not already 12-14V is about $2-4 ea unless rolling your own; but GRJ Super Chuffer to integrate smoke better is  $60; and Chuff Generator is $30.  So low end no bulbs or couplers but all the above is $295 to $300. Adding couplers and bulbs can push around $330.  G

G is correct. I have a few that got the full treatment but most customers shy away from the price. You have to add about $200 in labor to that as wiring up all that and doing it correctly takes a significant amount of time. Anybody that says they can do all that in less than 8 hours is full of it. It takes time. 

GGG posted:

josef posted:

GGG posted:

The full treatment at current ERR prices was $300 in parts.  .  G

It usually cost me to install ERR Cruise, sound and couplers around 200.00 in parts for an engine and I've converted or added ERR in 6 of my engines.

Were is the 300.00 in parts come from?

Cruise CDR $120; Railsounds $85-90 depending on Type; Couplers if need $10ea; Light bulbs or LED if not already 12-14V is about $2-4 ea unless rolling your own; but GRJ Super Chuffer to integrate smoke better is  $60; and Chuff Generator is $30.  So low end no bulbs or couplers but all the above is $295 to $300. Adding couplers and bulbs can push around $330.  G

Don't forget a fan smoke unit if you are starting out with a Suethe or puffer unit. Typically 35-40 bucks plus a number of hours to make a mount.

Pete

People keep asking if I'm back and I haven't really had an answer, but yeah, I'm thinking I'm back.  -  John Wick (2014 Thunder Road Pictures)

I'm not really sure how to tackle this one.  On the one hand it makes perfect sense to stop producing a product that doesn't make money, and likely actually costs you money by taking away sales of new product.  On the other hand, easy upgrades from ERR have been the mainstay for quite a while and folks on the tinkering end as well as those with smaller budgets have come to depend on them.  I don't really have any useful thoughts on what big L should or should not do with their product line, I suppose.

What I do question, is what is the legal state for someone to produce a TMCC compatible product?  It seems most of the conversation is over the cruise commander boards with barely a mention of the products that would actually be difficult to replace; the sound boards.  In a previous post to this thread GGG mentioned that the R2LC (R4LC?) is still going to be available.  If that is the case, there is nothing stopping anyone with a basic knowledge of component level electronics from producing a replacement TMCC cruise control board.  The R2LC and track signal are the major obsolete component in the system, for which parts are hard to come by and redesigning would be foolish.  The rest is just an H-bridge, a microprocessor, and a couple basic components. 

Likely an over all better idea would be to do away with the R2LC and track signal all together, and instead offer a "bridge" product that plugs into a TMCC/legacy base and then rebroadcasts commands over Bluetooth or some other 2.4GHz system to a new receiver board in an engine.  This would allow for in engine electronics produced as cheaply as LionChief electronics, using modern radio systems instead of the 50 year old system employed by TMCC.  

So where I'm at is... Are R2LC boards going to be around still, and is Big L going to sue someone if they offer a board for sale that does the same job as a cruise commander?  if the answers are yes and no, respectively, then there is no real problem for the boards most people are looking for.  

The real loss here is in the sound systems, which are well beyond the skill of the average electronics hobbyist. 

JGL

Matt Makens posted:

G is correct. I have a few that got the full treatment but most customers shy away from the price. You have to add about $200 in labor to that as wiring up all that and doing it correctly takes a significant amount of time. Anybody that says they can do all that in less than 8 hours is full of it. It takes time. 

"You have to add about $200" Wow, Union prices in New York City? True, Actually, only effective for a do it yourself person.

shawn posted:

Matt Makens posted:

G is correct. I have a few that got the full treatment but most customers shy away from the price. You have to add about $200 in labor to that as wiring up all that and doing it correctly takes a significant amount of time. Anybody that says they can do all that in less than 8 hours is full of it. It takes time. 

"You have to add about $200" Wow, Union prices in New York City? True, Actually, only effective for a do it yourself person.

 

$200/8hr = $25 an hour.

A day rate with overhead & benefits in NYC is nearly 4 times that.

As any good sale person will tell you is the WOW factor in any product will make a sale, now comes the OUCH part with or with out ERR. Their was a gentleman who's name I can not remember that did a Shay engine with DCC. I just loved the article and the step by step instruction he shared on the forum. With no or little ERR product on the market the conversation will be limited to the higher end product line or the engine we just love and can not live without it. If little or no ERR product in the supply line this will kill Lionel high end sales.  As any good LHS owner/sale person will tell you that you make your money on the small monthly sale from the regular customer not the high end, one and done customers. Also quality control and making a product on time that works out of the box will keep the customer happy, if not the customer will go somewhere else. Some free advise to Lionel, International Marketing, Baruch College, CUNY, class of 91.

Shawn’s time must have no value if he’s giving it a way.

Jim,

I price large Jobs in the City!  I wasn't being accurate --- The cost increase for someone that needs to have someone install the upgrade becomes prohibitive in selling the upgrade. I think that was his point.

I think 200.00 is a bit high. I wouldn't pay it for a upgrade (Personally). But, in the scope of  things is really cheap.

Matt Makens posted:

Shawn’s time must have no value if he’s giving it a way.

Well, when you hit a financial plateau  - no! But, I was agreeing with you in a way...

nvocc5 posted:

As any good sale person will tell you is the WOW factor in any product will make a sale, now comes the OUCH part with or with out ERR. Their was a gentleman who's name I can not remember that did a Shay engine with DCC. I just loved the article and the step by step instruction he shared on the forum. With no or little ERR product on the market the conversation will be limited to the higher end product line or the engine we just love and can not live without it. If little or no ERR product in the supply line this will kill Lionel high end sales.  As any good LHS owner/sale person will tell you that you make your money on the small monthly sale from the regular customer not the high end, one and done customers. Also quality control and making a product on time that works out of the box will keep the customer happy, if not the customer will go somewhere else. Some free advise to Lionel, International Marketing, Baruch College, CUNY, class of 91.

 Baruch College - Lol - spent a bit of time there --- when they were redoing or adding...space..

I’ve got two G Scale LokSound installs that will run close to $300 in labor each. Doing a good job and doing things properly and with good workmanship takes time. Ive seen some serious hack jobs come across my bench and the items came to me for repair and were a complete redo. The guy that screws em up will charge you $150 for labor. I just did an early 1990s Fleishmann N scale sound install for a good friend of mine that logged 20 hours of labor. At my rate that would’ve been $600. But he’s done a lot for me and he’s a good friend so I billed him at half the time and a discounted rate. People say these are simple and while to me some of them are to a lot of folks it can be way out of their league.  If you have the skill set, do it yourself otherwise find somebody qualified to do the work. I’m expensive and I bill time and material. Despite my prices, I  have plenty of work because my customers appreciate what I do for them. 

Matt Makens posted:

I’ve got two G Scale LokSound installs that will run close to $300 in labor each. Doing a good job and doing things properly and with good workmanship takes time. Ive seen some serious hack jobs come across my bench and the items came to me for repair and were a complete redo. The guy that screws em up will charge you $150 for labor. I just did an early 1990s Fleishmann N scale sound install for a good friend of mine that logged 20 hours of labor. At my rate that would’ve been $600. But he’s done a lot for me and he’s a good friend so I billed him at half the time and a discounted rate. People say these are simple and while to me some of them are to a lot of folks it can be way out of their league.  If you have the skill set, do it yourself otherwise find somebody qualified to do the work. I’m expensive and I'I bill time and material. Despite my prices, I  have plenty of work because my customers appreciate what I do for them. 

Your price for a upgrade is up to you.  If your work is "QUALITY" Kudo's to you.  Look, I can price a job at  50,000.00  and only expend a thousand dollars in parts and 8 hours in man labor at a couple of grand.  So, 47,000.00 later - I can't say that your time is not that valuable. Or that you are being over compensated for your time or quality of work.  But, Simply " I" would not pay that amount that your asking! 

I think you were stating that between the cost of the parts. Plus, your time and labor cost to install the upgrade. It goes beyond a reasonable cost to sell them a upgrade! Understood!

If you are in this hobby then you better learn how to fix your own trains otherwise you will be out a lot of money in upgrades and repairs. Atlas locomotives are extra-challenging on account of all of the small detail parts that must come off to perform any work.

I've installed 5 LokSound L decoders and it would've been 6 today if it wasn't for the decoder being defective right out of the box. ESU's customer service is great, though, and they will replace it free of charge. Anyway, that's a lot of money I could've spent on labor and shipping if I would've outsourced it and the work wouldn't have been up to my standards to boot.

Folks,

Before this thread degenerates into a shouting match....

We have received several emails from customers distressed at the possibility of Sunset Models / 3rd Rail not being able to provide service to our own products going forward because of a disruption of availability of ERR to the public.

This is far from the current situation. We have been assured that going forward we can obtain the ERR / OEM components that we use in our 3 Rail models for the foreseeable future (Don't Pick Apart my Words).  In fact, every project that we have announced on our web site we have in our possession the ERR / OEM boards needed to make them.

Can we sell these boards to the public?  No, not without a license to do so, so don't ask.  If you read the letter from Lionel, they clearly are working to make an arrangement with a 3rd Party to do this.  So why is there such doubt from forum members? Lionel  already stated they were working on this option.

Lionel made a decision, listened to their customers and is reacting appropriately.

Let's all give this some time to get worked out.

And do know, that you don't have to worry about Sunset Models / 3rd Rail being able to service our customers going forward. We have the "Beef".

Have a nice weekend, get off your computers and go outside, if the weather permits. It's probably a beautiful day where you are, go out and mow the lawn.  Cheers all.

Scott Mann

 So why is there such doubt from forum members? It's called public relations - or lack of!

Shawn, Rhetorical question - Wikipedia

JohnGaltLine posted:

People keep asking if I'm back and I haven't really had an answer, but yeah, I'm thinking I'm back.  -  John Wick (2014 Thunder Road Pictures)

I'm not really sure how to tackle this one.  On the one hand it makes perfect sense to stop producing a product that doesn't make money, and likely actually costs you money by taking away sales of new product.  On the other hand, easy upgrades from ERR have been the mainstay for quite a while and folks on the tinkering end as well as those with smaller budgets have come to depend on them.  I don't really have any useful thoughts on what big L should or should not do with their product line, I suppose.

What I do question, is what is the legal state for someone to produce a TMCC compatible product?  It seems most of the conversation is over the cruise commander boards with barely a mention of the products that would actually be difficult to replace; the sound boards.  In a previous post to this thread GGG mentioned that the R2LC (R4LC?) is still going to be available.  If that is the case, there is nothing stopping anyone with a basic knowledge of component level electronics from producing a replacement TMCC cruise control board.  The R2LC and track signal are the major obsolete component in the system, for which parts are hard to come by and redesigning would be foolish.  The rest is just an H-bridge, a microprocessor, and a couple basic components. 

Likely an over all better idea would be to do away with the R2LC and track signal all together, and instead offer a "bridge" product that plugs into a TMCC/legacy base and then rebroadcasts commands over Bluetooth or some other 2.4GHz system to a new receiver board in an engine.  This would allow for in engine electronics produced as cheaply as LionChief electronics, using modern radio systems instead of the 50 year old system employed by TMCC.  

So where I'm at is... Are R2LC boards going to be around still, and is Big L going to sue someone if they offer a board for sale that does the same job as a cruise commander?  if the answers are yes and no, respectively, then there is no real problem for the boards most people are looking for.  

The real loss here is in the sound systems, which are well beyond the skill of the average electronics hobbyist. 

JGL

 

While a hobbyist can make it, there are still patents and license to deal with to sell for profit.  GRJ pays a royalty to MTH for the super chuffer. So I imagine some of this can fall under the same.

Scott, I assume your the third party.  I can take Lionel at their word, but most of this pondering was about the third party and being profitable.  If Lionel has contracted with you to still provide ERR CC for your OEM production, then you would be the ideal party to also increase the order and be the third party seller. Let's see if you can hit the ERR price point.

My post was to assure customers about our viability... That's all I have to say on the subject.

sdmann posted:

My post was to assure customers about our viability... That's all I have to say on the subject.

You input is certainly appreciated Scott, and it's nice to know you folks will have a continuing source of the ERR electronics.  It does also give some hope for 3rd party sales, since the production of some ERR products will still be ongoing.

gunrunnerjohn posted:

sdmann posted:

My post was to assure customers about our viability... That's all I have to say on the subject.

You input is certainly appreciated Scott, and it's nice to know you folks will have a continuing source of the ERR electronics.  It does also give some hope for 3rd party sales, since the production of some ERR products will still be ongoing.

That's true! But, Hopefully, he didn't stick his neck out ---

sdmann posted:

Folks,

Before this thread degenerates into a shouting match....

Have a nice weekend, get off your computers and go outside, if the weather permits. It's probably a beautiful day where you are, go out and mow the lawn.  Cheers all.

Scott Mann

GGG posted:

While a hobbyist can make it, there are still patents and license to deal with to sell for profit.  GRJ pays a royalty to MTH for the super chuffer. So I imagine some of this can fall under the same.

This is mostly what I'm curious about.  I know that other companies existed at various points that offered TMCC compatible products, but do not know what legal hurdles they had to go through , if any, to do so.  

In the case I have in mind, a motor driver board would be the product, and it would not even use any TMCC technology, other than having a set of header pins compatible with a R2LC board.  Perhaps someone could point me in the direction of any patents or other claims of intellectual property that ERR, or anyone else, might have on a cruise control motor driver.

Since back-EMF cruise has been used for a very long time in all scales, it's hard to imagine just producing a motor driver board would be a significant issue.  I suspect, as you say, that you'd probably need to buy the R4LC from Lionel for the TMCC side of the picture.  That's what the folks at Digital Dynamics and TAS did for their TMCC products.

Number 90 posted:

sdmann posted:

It's probably a beautiful day where you are, go out and mow the lawn. 

It's raining where I am.

Scott,   Great suggestion earlier today.  A gorgeous day in Tuttle, Okla.  I made the most of it, getting ready for Spring and more cleaning up from Winter.  Sprayed the fruit trees this morn before the sun came fully up, around 06:30 hrs.  Mowed two acres before 10:00 hrs, cleaned and put back in service after winter storage the 3 tier concrete water fountain and the two tier fountain.  Edged the long drive to our house, swept up several wheelbarrows of cuttings, leaves, etc.  Cleaned the pool (in ground, 48K gallons), fed the fish in the pond, put in a small amount of algaecide to help control it, etc.   Yes, it is the time of year for being outside and getting ready for the Memorial Day smoking of ribs, brisket, yard bird and veggies....... YYUMMMMMM!!!

Enjoy the days we have and the great benefits we all enjoy from our hobby and it's endeavors.  True, there are always stumbling blocks, but that always works out and we learn from it in the end.  So high-ball it and make the most of what the Good Lord has provided.

Jesse   TCA

And let us hope that includes the ERR products, type of products, we all like using and may the benefits thereof continue for a long time to come.  It is a very long tunnel, and it may be very dork... dark...., but there is, hopefully, a bright light at the end.  Just don't stand, or lay, on the tracks when you see it........

Jesse

 "fed the fish in the pond". Lol, that's how I will be able to use all my broken trains that I can't get parts to fix! Fish habitat in my fish tank!

gunrunnerjohn posted:

Since back-EMF cruise has been used for a very long time in all scales, it's hard to imagine just producing a motor driver board would be a significant issue.  I suspect, as you say, that you'd probably need to buy the R4LC from Lionel for the TMCC side of the picture.  That's what the folks at Digital Dynamics and TAS did for their TMCC products.

That was my thinking.  As long as the R2LC/R4LC is obtainable a path to TMCC upgrades remains.  While actually duplicating the design of an ERR board wouldn't be practical for legal and/or cost reasons, designing a replacement motor driver doesn't seem like a particularly difficult task.  I'm uncertain about a solid-state design for older universal motors, any modern engine with a DC motor would work just fine with the same driver I used in the LC polar express cruise control, only needing a slight change to read the signals from the r2(4)lcm instead of the LC board.  I think the hardest part would be the PCB layout to fit everything in a small enough package.  

I have to ask this, and hesitated for a long time to put this forward. Before I found out how easy it was to install ERRs systems, I had a SF F3s that were gifts converted from PS1 to the ERR system, using ERR system. I then wanted my NYC  MTH PS1 F3s ABA converted also using ERR Cruise kits.

So I have to ask Gunrunner John this question. He did the conversion, but after almost a year and learning to install ERR system on several steam and Diesel engines, I wanted to control the cab light as I had done on my SF and several other Diesels with the smoke control button, but, aghast, when I opened the NYC F3s, I discover that ERR system was not installed as agreed to.  So what boards were installed. and were these boards repaired from pulled boards, and can this be a viable way to recover other boards, systems from older engines to still have TMCC?

josef posted:

I have to ask this, and hesitated for a long time to put this forward. Before I found out how easy it was to install ERRs systems, I had a SF F3s that were gifts converted from PS1 to the ERR system, using ERR system. I then wanted my NYC  MTH PS1 F3s ABA converted also using ERR Cruise kits.

So I have to ask Gunrunner John this question. He did the conversion, but after almost a year and learning to install ERR system on several steam and Diesel engines, I wanted to control the cab light as I had done on my SF and several other Diesels with the smoke control button, but, aghast, when I opened the NYC F3s, I discover that ERR system was not installed as agreed to.  So what boards were installed. and were these boards repaired from pulled boards, and can this be a viable way to recover other boards, systems from older engines to still have TMCC?

Really! The way the post is worded. It is a question that should have been directly 

presented to John.  Something, not for a open forum.  Plus, It's a Electrical Enginner against a rookie...

josef posted:

I have to ask this, and hesitated for a long time to put this forward. Before I found out how easy it was to install ERRs systems, I had a SF F3s that were gifts converted from PS1 to the ERR system, using ERR system. I then wanted my NYC  MTH PS1 F3s ABA converted also using ERR Cruise kits.

So I have to ask Gunrunner John this question. He did the conversion, but after almost a year and learning to install ERR system on several steam and Diesel engines, I wanted to control the cab light as I had done on my SF and several other Diesels with the smoke control button, but, aghast, when I opened the NYC F3s, I discover that ERR system was not installed as agreed to.  So what boards were installed. and were these boards repaired from pulled boards, and can this be a viable way to recover other boards, systems from older engines to still have TMCC?

TMCC receivers have one terminal marked "feature". You can use to control a smoke unit, a cab light, or a Mars light. Only one, not all three. If you want a cab light just wire the cab light to this terminal and disconnect whatever is already there.

There are other ways to turn the cab light on and off while still being able to turn the smoke on and off but not with your handheld. Aux1 8 and Aux1 9 will only handle one or the other.

If you want to install Legacy then you will be able to control more than one function but not with TMCC.

Pete

Norton posted:

josef posted:

I have to ask this, and hesitated for a long time to put this forward. Before I found out how easy it was to install ERRs systems, I had a SF F3s that were gifts converted from PS1 to the ERR system, using ERR system. I then wanted my NYC  MTH PS1 F3s ABA converted also using ERR Cruise kits.

So I have to ask Gunrunner John this question. He did the conversion, but after almost a year and learning to install ERR system on several steam and Diesel engines, I wanted to control the cab light as I had done on my SF and several other Diesels with the smoke control button, but, aghast, when I opened the NYC F3s, I discover that ERR system was not installed as agreed to.  So what boards were installed. and were these boards repaired from pulled boards, and can this be a viable way to recover other boards, systems from older engines to still have TMCC?

TMCC receivers have one terminal marked "feature". You can use to control a smoke unit, a cab light, or a Mars light. Only one, not all three. If you want a cab light just wire the cab light to this terminal and disconnect whatever is already there.

There are other ways to turn the cab light on and off while still being able to turn the smoke on and off but not with your handheld. Aux1 8 and Aux1 9 will only handle one or the other.

If you want to install Legacy then you will be able to control more than one function but not with TMCC.

Pete

Thanks, I found that out and made the connection. My main question was on repairing existing boards that are not ERR and using them. I have seen many engines that have dead TMCC and listed at low prices that maybe  salvaging the boards and repairing maybe an alternative. Just a question.

Lionel DCDRs (non cruise) and R2LCs have many parts that can be replaced. A lot of R2LCs fail and can't be easily repaired if part of the receiver or serial data section dies. You should be able to get R2LCs from Lionel for at least the foreseeable future.

Pete

Hip  Hip Hooray!!!!!!

Received two AC commanders and a Large Loco sound today.

My order was placed the Saturday evening after York.

Boards do not have to be repaired.  I upgrade many operating K-Line, Atlas, and even a few Lionel TMCC engines to DCS. The left over parts are good and useable depending on what a customer wants.  Now if you asked for ERR Cruise and got something else, that is a different matter.

I will be placing a few complete Diesel TMCC setups for sale on the board soon.  Everything included bulbs to harness and couplers.  TMCC/RS4.0.  G

I'm 24 years late getting into command operation because my layout is just built and the engines I bought along the way simply sat.  Here is an easy question for you guys: Does the sum of the driver board and the R2LC or R4LC boards that made up an ERR Commander kit, when put together, "equate to" Lionel's original LCRU, albeit providing much better performance? 

Could you get a replacement LCRU from Lionel  for some engine or other and use it to get command in an PW unit.  Or are there Lots of different LCRU boards?  If so, still probably better to wait it out a while and see what happens?   Thanks.

I just brought and received 2 LCRU with sound board platforms from Lionel.    These came out of the Milw Road GP9 from 1997.  Would be good to upgrade AC motors,  at $140.00 a piece I got Command and Railsounds.   I put my last spare LCRU in my 2354 NYC F3's, reguiring me to get two replacements....

Marty

Martin Derouin posted:

I just brought and received 2 LCRU with sound board platforms from Lionel.    These came out of the Milw Road GP9 from 1997.  Would be good to upgrade AC motors,  at $140.00 a piece I got Command and Railsounds.   I put my last spare LCRU in my 2354 NYC F3's, reguiring me to get two replacements....

Marty

So an original LCRU board is a combination of the driver and R4LC boards in ERR's AC Commander kit.???

Yes, the LCRU was all in one.  So if you lost Motor control, or receiver sensitivity the whole unit was gone. THey also were primarily for AC motors not DC. Though they may have a mod on one for DC.  Lionel rapidly moved into the modular design, with Mother board and individual R2LC, Power Supply and RS.

ERR coming full circle used the LCRU like platform with Back EMF Motor driver combined, but a pin header to plug in the R2LC.  Just like they made the RS Powered Mother board which combined a RS Mother Board with Power Supply for one compact RS board you plugged a RS Board into.

Later Lionel and ERR went to the RS5 /Legacy Lite which is one combined sound board.  Lionel stayed modular otherwise for RS and early Legacy.  G

PS Just remember when you buy LCRU your getting 25-30 year old parts with no cruise.