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This obviously comes up all the time on here, any time a store closes, a supplier goes out of business, the recent MTH changes, we see the dimming prospects. There is an announcement on here about a division of the NMRA going inactive and trying to figure out how to go forward due to lack of people to do things. Yet we also see positives, Allen's article in OGRR about the demographics of the forum had a lot to be happy about I think.

I thought it might be, in the vein of Arnold C's great threads on the hobby, to look at the future and while looking at the issues give thoughts on how to keep it going onwards.  The hobby is changing, but it always has been, the 1940's and 50's were way different than the MPC era, the 'golden age' we have had was different again. To me from the MPC era looking at what we have today in 2021 is something of a miracle to be honest (on the other hand, those who came of age in the hobby during the prior 20 years, prob sees it in decline. ). Ppl from the original golden age are moving on, so the hobby is changing demographically. Some quick thoughts/observations:

-Blaming that kids are not exposed to trains today, or they are too busy with their smart phones , is both a copout and the general observation that Paul Lynde sang about in Bye Bye Birdie, that kids of the next generation are always flawed. We had distractions too, tv, cars, slot cars, HO scale trains, all kinds of things took away the audience for Lionel, it happens. Funny thing is, though, as kids grew up, they discovered or rediscovered them. Kids from my era got into them later on, even though they didn't have them as a kid.  As far as being exposed to trains, I am in my late 50's, and I never saw the 'golden age of passenger trains", never saw an operating steam engine in mainline service (supposedly the Erie Lackawanna had steam in service until 1970, never saw it), so how come I and others of my age group or younger got into trains? Kids today aren't that much further removed from trains then I was growing up in the 60's and 70s. It is an adult activity, and while I think kids should be encouraged, many adults get into it despite not having it as a kid. 

On the other hand, that is not an excuse for the train clubs that are not exactly kid friendly, and more than a few IME are downright hostile.  Yeah, kids can be a pain, yada yada , but if you don't encourage them, who is going to be the next generation? Treat them like they are, a valuable resource for the future of the hobby, don't expect them to be a small adult.

-Train shows and displays. incredibly valuable. I am foggy if all the trains displays at York were in the open halls, they should be if they aren't (I kind of lost track which were public and which weren't, other than Orange). One of the things there that is important is having people there who not only run the trains, but act as ambassadors. Lot of the displays I have seen are kind of inward facing. Obviously the guys operating the layout are important, but so are brand ambassadors. Have people on the other side of the glass talking to people who come up to admire it, talk to kids about it. The shows I have been to, often the guys running it are talking to themselves or buddies rather than being active with the people viewing it (and again, just my experience).

-Clubs/open houses. Again valuable, the gee whiz factor is there. But like with train shows and displays to be effective at getting new members the current members have to act as ambassadors.  Of course the layout is likely to be a hit, people will love watching the trains, but just having brochures around about joining isn't enough.  Sometimes people are shy, they may have some interest but not feel comfortable going up to someone. Having someone who comes up to you, noticing you are looking, and says hi, and gets to talking opens up something. There was a train club that sadly is too far for me to easily be a member who does a great holiday open house. I got to talking to the guy who apparently does most of the track (handlay), and I have to tell you after 15 minutes talking to him I wanted to pitch in, it really gave a good impression of the club (whether everyone else was like that, I don't know, prob not).  Be proactive and active, don't expect people to throw themselves at you, draw them in.

The other thing is make the website welcoming to people interested in possibly joining. First of all, have a decent website, it really isn't hard to have a decent one. Doesn't have to be fancy, but if it looks like it was created in 1990 for a bulletin board system, it will give the impression it is dead (dead pages on a website are a disaster area, listings for events 4 years ago, nothing really recent, looks dead). More importantly, in the section where it is 'interested in joining', make it seem like you really want new members.

There was one train club I looked at, where when I clicked on the 'interested in joining' section, I was hit by an application for membership that I swear was like an employment application. It basically came off as "unless you are a master modeler with all these great skills and can dedicate significant time each month, don't bother" (needless to say, I didn't bother). Hey, if you think your group is that great, doesn't really need anyone else, you are fine, then that is fine, but don't complain if people don't ask for information or join.  Me, I would rather have someone who is really new who is enthusiastic, they can help a great deal while learning, give me 4 new members willing to learn over 1 great craftsman.

Suggestion is have the interested in joining section be basic, name, contact information, and potential interest, and then have someone get in touch with them. I understand that with clubs there is frustration that a small group does most of the work, but that is true with any kind of organization and looking for those "only good enough" is no way to grow a club.  Some people have a lot of time to dedicate towards a club, others are in a phase of life when they don't, that person in their 30's or 40's with kids doesn't have as much time as someone who is an empty nester or retired. The newbie that doesn't know anything about DCC/DCS, what a caboose was used for, doesn't know the parts of a turnout to start with, can end up eventually being one of the 'stars' of the club. A group of clannish people is going to find it hard to recruit people or looking for 'perfect fits only".

Just my thoughts, be interesting to see what others come up with.

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The future is extremely bright. In fact I'm excited. I expect a flood of great trains at ridiculously low prices. I think there is a misplaced focus on youth being the future. That focus should be placed on a lot higher on the age bracket. I never saw a 6 o r 12 year old buy a $1,200 engine. Though grand dad might have but them a $200 train set.

I see train clubs as, well I just don't see them as being important. They are like stamp clubs, you enjoy the company of others but hardly a path way to increasing the masses to take up the train hobby.

I just don't spend time worrying about the future of toy trains. I run the heck out of them and waite for estate sales to pick up great bargains.

@Renovo PRR posted:

I think there is a misplaced focus on youth being the future. That focus should be placed on a lot higher on the age bracket. I never saw a 6 o r 12 year old buy a $1,200 engine.

I just don't spend time worrying about the future of toy trains. I run the heck out of them and waite for estate sales to pick up great bargains.

It's sad that apparently the only important people in our hobby are the ones that can spend $1,200.00 on an engine.

If youth want to be a part of its future they should be able to, even if they can't bring $1,200.00 to the table.  Many of us have seen too many participants who've found reasons, of many different kinds not just money, to keep the young ones out.

Because they are our future in general, they also deserve to be allowed, and indeed encouraged, to be the future of this hobby.

When all of us are long gone we'll see whose focus is misplaced.

Mike

A big positive trend that I've observed in the past few years is a shift of emphasis from acquisition/collecting to operating and social interaction.  More clubs seem to be having open houses, and it seems that there are more modular clubs putting on displays for the public.

I think that @bigkid makes a lot of valid observations.  His story about one club's membership process points out how just one rude or tone-deaf club or individual can destroy someone's enthusiasm for the hobby, and he's spot on regarding being ambassadors - just being friendly goes a long way.  (It's difficult to imagine ANY club making it difficult to join these days - I'd love to know what club that was.)

I'm a bit troubled by the folks that are dismissive of kids or are focused on how many more trains they can acquire as older collectors leave the hobby - IMO, it's too inward-looking.

   

I have been going to York since I was 20 (11 years). Being a younger member, one of the things that I look out for is other younger members. This York, I was pleasantly surprised to see quite a few people my age or younger that were their by themselves (or with other young people). It actually outnumbered the number of powerchairs I saw! To me, this is a great sign for the hobby. Hopefully it continues.

Some "targeting" and "marketing" tips related to recruiting newbies to the hobby ...

At club-sponsored Train Shows or local Open House events, assign control of the trains on the layout to younger members using a CAB-1 or higher-level equivalent. Curious visiting kids will be more likely to approach a kid in control who asks, "Who wants to be next to run the trains, blow the whistle, sound the bell, and make it talk?"

Adult members of the club should start a conversation with the Dad (or Mom) of those kids who step up to run the trains for a few laps. Start with open-ended questions like, "What kid doesn't like toy trains? Your son/daughter quickly learned how to run the trains for fun." Let the conversation flow from there.

Of course kids can't buy pricey trains, but they can  wish.  Wish fulfillment is the role of parents and grandparents as enablers. Thoughtful parents realize that playing with trains is MUCH MORE positive and life-affirming than playing with video games based on mayhem and murder - even role-playing when the young gamer is cast as an assassin.

Although club members who are skilled hobbyists know a lot about trains, at an event let them "think and talk like a newbie." All one needs to know at the outset is, "What are the red and black wires for?" Then, one factoid leads to another ...

Just saying ... at the beginning - KISS.

Mike Mottler   LCCA 12394

Last edited by Mike H Mottler

I hate to be a voice of doom, but I think hobbies that require space and cash aren't going to be growing any time soon. Take a look at the millennial generation. They were told to get a college degree as the best investment for their future. Some were smart (or had smart parents and grandparents that set aside funds) and were able to graduate without too much debt. Others had to heavily finance their education, and were saddled with mortgage-sized debt right out of the gate. Then you've got the dot com bubble bursting in the early 2000s, the Great Recession, and now a global pandemic. So wages are low and have been low for a long time.

Add to that people are living longer, and there isn't the steady progression in industry that used to be there. Jobs a younger person could be promoted into are still being occupied by older folks. Nothing against us older generations, we need money too - but it does clog up the ladder for folks on the bottom. Then you've got housing prices going into the stratosphere, which is great for us that own a house but bad for folks wanting to notch that next step on their belt. Rent is out of control too. A number of houses in my neck of the woods are renting out for more than my mortgage payment, sometimes double my mortgage.

So you've got all these young folks with stagnant wages for years and crazy rent prices. There isn't going to be cash for expensive hobbies like trains, or the space to set up a nice layout in that one bedroom apartment. Especially when a medical issue could put you a couple hundred grand in the hole. I can see why the young folks are sticking with playing on their phones and binge watching TV, it's cheaper. Gotta have the phone for job applications and being on-call, and these days if you don't have a mobile phone it makes a lot of things harder. It's hard to justify a few hundred on a cheap train set when you haven't been able to save for retirement or build an emergency fund.

Mikey made a great point earlier, with $70k trucks. I saw the new Ford Ranger coming out and they start around $30k! Life is expensive. Now I was a smart cookie back in the day, and I graduated college with a good degree and no debt thanks to working full time, going to class at night, picking up core classes at the local community college, and a fat savings account thanks to my hardworking parents and grandparents, and that's made all the difference for me. I've got a feeling that if Those In Charge wiped out student loan debt, all that cash that had been going to a handful of banks would instead be flowing into the housing market, buying cars, attending restaurants, and getting deep into fun hobbies like ours. I bet the economy would take a huge jump up and you'd have a lot of happy folks working toward the American dream.

Sorry mods if that's too political or doom and gloom, just how I see things.

As one who's worked in higher ed over the years, it pains me to see the amount of debt some folks take on with degree programs that may not provide them a competitive edge in the job market upon graduation.  Too many overlook the trades because they've been told that a college degree -- any degree -- is the ticket to success.  I worked both full- and part-time gigs while paying my own way and, happily, graduated debt free.  Of course, it took me more than just four years to do it all, but I did it just the same.  (Mind you, instead of going on to grad school, I often think I'd have been better off learning a trade... but that's another story.)

Another reason why the hobby may not grow is the cost involved:  the newer, highly detailed trains with multiple functions beyond lights, direction and maybe a horn/whistle and bell are astronomical for some folks.  And it's not just in the O gauge realm, either.  As a long-time fan of a particularly well-known HO  train manufacturer, I have a tough time justifying $700 or more for a single locomotive that will no doubt provide some frustration when it comes to programming the thing... or finding spare parts when a delicate trim piece breaks off.  (For that same $700, I can find two or three vintage analog items that run just as well as they did when they were first made... and parts are still available in many cases.)

I think the hobby will survive, although it may get a little tougher for some of us analog "dinosaurs" who just want to move the lever/turn the knob and watch the trains run

I usually hate these threads but there are some good points in the original post.

I'm 30 but I remember running into guys back in the day as a kid and them telling me what I can and can't do with model railroading. I still get the same issues. 3D printing and technology have no place in model railroading according to these people. They had to scratch build uphill both ways in the snow in their day. I think this is a major stumbling block. Seems like humans get in a rut of thinking where the only good people are people that do things like them. Common interests are important but they're divisive when they aren't broad enough. It only takes a bit of learning about 3D printing to learn that scratch building and 3D printing are complimentary.

The websites are an amusing problem. I appreciate it for nostalgia. Almost makes me want to break out the serial plug ball mouse and Netscape Navigator when I run into those websites. But my friends that have seen them are shocked and the focus becomes the 1998 websites instead of finding the product I'm looking for. First impressions are important regardless of whether or not it's convenient for us.

Menards looks to be able to fill the gap left by high dollar products. The LC+2.0 steamer and diesel I bought were both under $500 individually. Either way, Menards might help.

I don't think the hobby is in trouble. It's changing and I have almost no evidence to back up that claim I'm going to keep doing this because I enjoy it.

I see these posts often and hear it all the time in hobby shops. My advice is to live in the present. Today, the state of affairs really isn’t that bad.

One thing not mentioned here is the power of Social Media. Eric’s Trains on YouTube steered me towards O-Gauge rather than HO or G. Now, I have my own YouTube channel which will hopefully inspire others.

First off, all things we would call 'hobbies' from our youth are down or gone.  Our own followers can take some of the blame too, by their desire to purchase everything ready to go.  Where are the kits?  Now folks want complete and highly detailed, right out of the box, that drives things up in price, even if the slaves in China are building them.  When i started in HO almost 60 years ago, everything I bought was a kit, including Tyco steam locomotives.  Kit stuff for O was less common, but it was out there.  As I drifted into O, by resurrecting a Lionel set I got when I was 4, and a set sent to me by my Uncle, I have had running O gauge trains for about 35 of those 60 years now, and it has definitely become a rich mans hobby in many cases.  You can hold expenses down by finding deals on auction sites or Craigs list, we are lucky to have several sources of parts so if you buy broken items you have  a source of parts to repair things.    Part of the hobby has always been building and creating, but buying it built and created right out of the box is not a good path to follow.  Referencing to youth, how many are active in using their hands to create something?  I had an Erector Set, chemistry set, other hands on creative based 'toys' and built many strange and wonderful things not in the plans.  I built models and other things, the key thing being I actually did something.  How many kids do anything requiring creativity and dexterity and get recognition for it?  Most of the toys we had long ago are now banned as too dangerous.  So you build something out of the Erector Set and it spins around and whacks you in the head, is that a reason to make all toys so safety centered that makes them boring or to totally outlaw them?  You can not make a Tyco 0-4-0 Dockside steam engine for $9.95 anymore, or the Pacific for $24.95 all in kit form.  Raw materials and employee costs will outstrip profit, and to adjust those prices to 2021 faced off against a ready-to-run unit from China, for less than what it could be offered domestically, just will never happen again.  300+million in the US...and how many are into any trains?  This is a niche market, with not many possible buyers out there.  We are lucky we have the choices we do have and entrepreneurs who think they can make a living supplying that market.  The subscription rates of the various hobby magazines will tell you where most of the market is, and I'll bet if any of them are much over 100,000 subscribers, it would be a miracle. 100,000/300,000,000 = .03%, not a big market share.

This topic is a regular.......and there's so much available to every one right now that we'll have more than enough for the next generation or 5 of hobbyists. Plenty for all and more.

I sell off a year of kits, and built up models roughly 3 times a year and barely make a dent in the mountain that regularly threatens to collapse about me.  That I am able to sell that much off tells me that there is no shortage of hobbyists either.

Seems to me that "trains" is a genetic predisposition. It's either in us or it's not. Outside influences only serve to nurture those impulses.

Just because a younger person is not presently able to spend that much money, it does not mean they won't in the future. Even if it's not absolutely practical to do so at a particular time in their life ... they may still quantify it in their minds ... "for the family."

One of the OGR executives sometimes mocks "millennials." That garbage is not helpful. One young, new person ... a young father ....  I knew here simply left. The other I know just shakes his head.

And OGR magazine ... when a person is unable to enjoy, or is hardly able to enjoy, our hobby because of his life's present restraints, reading OGR is a way to enjoy the hobby from the outside, and to learn, plan, and hope.

I think the state of our hobby is good ... even with the changing world. I wish Atlas would start getting out their 2-rail engines. I wish there were more OTC decals and details. But, it's a fun hobby.

Jim

Last edited by CNJ Jim
@CNJ Jim posted:


One of the OGR executives sometimes mocks "millennials." That garbage is not helpful. One young, new person ... a young father ....  I knew here simply left, the other just shakes his head.



That right there is how you kill interest in the hobby. Born between 1981 and 1996, millennials are anywhere from 25 years to 40 years old. Imagine being forty years old and being mocked for being a child. That would kill my interest in a particular club or forum real fast.

Yeah, well, all the talk about "young people only being interested in their phones" certainly doesn't help. Anyone see those old movies from the 1950's about the "wild youth" we were creating? Or the 1960's "Dr. Spock" kids going to destroy the world? Many of those complaining are of those generations. One thing my reading of history has told me is kids will be kids, and their elders will claim they are going to ruin the world. I don't know, I didn't drop anvils on anyone's head or try to use the Acme do it yourself atomic bomb kit (though I kind of wonder about GunRunnerJohn in that regards....), I seem to have gotten to the cusp of being a grump old person myself without ruining the world......

Seriously, I wish people would stop categorizing anyone, if the hobby fails it won't be because the 'next generations' are any more or less serious or any more or less stupid then we were, it is because they have other interests *shrug*.  All I can say is when I was at the age many of that generation are now, I was too busy doing things like building a career, raising my son, renovating a house to have much time for hobbies (plus I had a hole in the water you throw money into ie a boat), it is the nature of things.

A regular topic with the same glass half full and half empty comments.

I would look at a few things:

-the attendance numbers at York.

-the quantity of local train shows

-observe the demographics of those BUYING trains not just attending the show to entertain there kids.   (Many people attend car races and air shows, but don't buy race cars or airplanes).

-look at disposable income not just yours, but society as a whole.  Especially when inflation starts kicking in for real.

The here and now is more realistic and affordable.  It also takes up much less room than a train layout.

To my knowledge, my state, with the 4th, 7th, 9th, 10th and 11th largest cities, no longer has any toy train stores.   Aside from the local TCA shows, it has 3 train shows.  Two shows are biannual for a total of five shows per year.   However the 3 shows are located 200-280 miles apart.  20 yrs ago we had 8 or more toy train stores and 13 or more train shows per year, not counting GATS shows at 4 or more cities.  So in my area there is a definite decline.

And of course disparaging comments and railing about correct pronunciation or rivet counts doesn't help the situation either.

@CALNNC posted:

First off, all things we would call 'hobbies' from our youth are down or gone.  Our own followers can take some of the blame too, by their desire to purchase everything ready to go.  Where are the kits?  Now folks want complete and highly detailed, right out of the box, that drives things up in price, even if the slaves in China are building them.  When i started in HO almost 60 years ago, everything I bought was a kit, including Tyco steam locomotives.  Kit stuff for O was less common, but it was out there.  As I drifted into O, by resurrecting a Lionel set I got when I was 4, and a set sent to me by my Uncle, I have had running O gauge trains for about 35 of those 60 years now, and it has definitely become a rich mans hobby in many cases.  You can hold expenses down by finding deals on auction sites or Craigs list, we are lucky to have several sources of parts so if you buy broken items you have  a source of parts to repair things.    Part of the hobby has always been building and creating, but buying it built and created right out of the box is not a good path to follow.  Referencing to youth, how many are active in using their hands to create something?  I had an Erector Set, chemistry set, other hands on creative based 'toys' and built many strange and wonderful things not in the plans.  I built models and other things, the key thing being I actually did something.  How many kids do anything requiring creativity and dexterity and get recognition for it?  Most of the toys we had long ago are now banned as too dangerous.  So you build something out of the Erector Set and it spins around and whacks you in the head, is that a reason to make all toys so safety centered that makes them boring or to totally outlaw them?  You can not make a Tyco 0-4-0 Dockside steam engine for $9.95 anymore, or the Pacific for $24.95 all in kit form.  Raw materials and employee costs will outstrip profit, and to adjust those prices to 2021 faced off against a ready-to-run unit from China, for less than what it could be offered domestically, just will never happen again.  300+million in the US...and how many are into any trains?  This is a niche market, with not many possible buyers out there.  We are lucky we have the choices we do have and entrepreneurs who think they can make a living supplying that market.  The subscription rates of the various hobby magazines will tell you where most of the market is, and I'll bet if any of them are much over 100,000 subscribers, it would be a miracle. 100,000/300,000,000 = .03%, not a big market share.

I am part of the youth that likes to build things. I am 24.

Kits are what makes this hobby fun for me. HO Scale kits are plentiful and come in all different flavors. I have picked up a few O scale kits this year however they come at a premium. (Typically in the ~$500 for steamers)

I've built several kits this year including a Bowser Challenger and Varney Berkshire. In my opinion, there is nothing more fun than watching something that you have made run for the first time.

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