The sudden end of postwar remakes

My guess would be that there is no shortage of these kinds of locomotives on the secondary market. In other words, the market is soft. And, with some exceptions, the prices on these engines on the secondary market are a bargain in comparison.

Now factor in the rising costs to produce new product and I think there within is the answer. In the case of Williams, there were a lot of deep blowouts to move existing inventory. So from their standpoint, I can imagine they would want to wait for sufficient market demand.

With Lionel, it seems pretty clear that they are putting their emphasis on the LionChief products. They're trying to reach a new generation with the starter sets. And with the LionChief Plus locos - which by all accounts seem to be well received - those seem to be aimed at conventional operators to make the next step toward command operation and features, without having an entire command system.

A few years ago when Lionel and Williams had more of the sort of products you mention Greg, a frequent comment made was along the lines of "Wow, look at these prices! Guess I'll have to stick with the used market."

A point often gets made, how can Mendard's offer products for so much less than the established train companies? I think right there is part of the answer: The other companies have entire product lines, catalogs, service departments, distributor networks etc., which all adds the cost of a product.

And not the least of which is the advance financial investment required in R&D and tooling to bring any brand new product to market. Unfortunately these costs do get spread out all over a given company's product line.

I think it also might be akin to the situation with 027 tubular track from Lionel. A couple years ago Lionel announced that it would be made only on a "demand" basis. When there was enough distributor/dealer demand for the product, it only then would be made.

Oh well.  I would have really liked to get a model of the Lionel PW Hudson and cars.   Missed out there.

Norm

Unless you want a set in sealed factory cartons why can't you get them still???

I bet if you look you can find them sealed even.  I agree the lack of new PW production is because of the TON of stuff on the market. NEW O scale product is aimed at the scale market. But there is so much PW on the market online and every show I attend......

Good question and one that's come up before. So you are not alone.

There's a small -- but vocal -- cadre of us who really enjoyed the Lionel Conventional Classics series and wished it had continued. Was a great way to pick up brand new trains that were faithful (mostly) to the PW originals. Some have said that the line "ran its course," but there were so many PW candidates for the CC line that were never made. Everyone has their favorites and the list is a long one.

The good thing for me is I missed many of them the first time around but have enjoyed picking them up here and there, mostly at very nice prices.

I'll mention it again to the Lionel guys at York. Can't hurt.

EDIT: And totally agree with brianel's comment above about the LionChief Plus line. Lionel has started offering some of the classic PW locos (NW-2s, Rectifier Electrics) with LC+.  Assume F3s can't be far behind. Maybe a sign that they've shifted their marketing strategy? 

I was also a big fan of the Conventional Classics and have quite a few of those sets.  There are some PW remakes of military items in the latest catalog.  They have also been calling the remakes Postwar Inspired.  I have no interest in the LC or LC+ products.  maybe a few years down the road if they can work out some of the "bugs".  From what I have read her and elsewhere, the LC products seem to be fraught with problems.

Jeff Davis 

Although some people want the post war CC trains it is very hard to sell them.We hauled a CC hudson with the madison passenger cars around from show to show but no one wanted them. Finally sold off the cars privately. Looks like they just don't sell.

Rob

I think that they are still being made, just not under the same CC title.

The recent military cars in the latest catalog should fall under this umbrella.

I purchased many of the PWC and CC items. I now have a pretty good collection of repo's of the most iconic pieces (F3's, UP also anniv. set, NJC Trainmaster, GG-1).

It really seems like the best items have now been done so maybe Lionel is just running out of item that will generate enough sales to justify the work.

You are kidding, aren't you, Jeff? "Fraught with problems" What does that have to do with PW remakes? Smells bovine to me.

Funny you mention that set, Rob. I posted a WTB on the forum and got all kinds of responses.

I'm sure there are certain CC sets that sell better than others but they seem to be pretty strong on the secondary market. As I mentioned above I've been buying many of them that are 6-7 years from release. Seems to be a fairly robust market.

When the conventional classics program was first announced, I believe it was in 2008, Jerry Calabrese stated in the catalog  that the program was to be in effect for only three years.  That is just about how long the sets were produced.  Lou Capponi, was the promoter of the program. His premature passing occurred about the time the program was ended.  I have a number of sets and am very pleased with their performance.  They are of excellent quality and are very accurate representations of the originals.

Gentlemen & Gentlepersons,

Each of us are in our mature years. Have we forgotten that Lionel produces items in cycles? Chances are these will return under another name. This is my opinion.                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     

Anyone who wants postwar or postwar clones (Williams) has what they want.  The end of the Pullmor is no loss to any serious operator.  I have a friend who has made a second living selling postwar at shows for the past 40 years, heis ready to throw in the towel.  I am not knocking postwar as many of us grew up with it.  My observation is that most serious postwar collectors have what they want by now.

As for Lionel and Williams not showing as much product, they have some very smart people decide what is selling and what is not.

The manufacturers have to make the products that sell in order to stay profitable. If these items were producing good sales, they would still be making them. I think it's aa matter of slow sales.

As for Lion Chief & LC+, I think that has taken off like a rocket with few problems. Not sure where some get the idea they are 'Fraught with problems'? It appears they are doing very well. The pricing is also in line with what people are willing to pay and they are easy to use and have good features. I think they have a real winner here and also something to promote the hobby with as well.

Why make PWC and CC stuff when you can make tons of die-cast NASCAR !

quote:

 I have a friend who has made a second living selling postwar at shows for the past 40 years is ready to throw in the towel.  I am not knocking postwar as many of us grew up with it.  My observation is that most serious postwar collectors have what they want by now.

Did "serious postwar collectors" ever have any interest in the PWC or Conventional Classics stuff anyway? How much of that stuff did your friend handle?

I know that I purchased a few of those items to use, not to collect.

As has already been mentioned, there are a few items in the current catalog suite that are either replicas of postwar items, or copies in new paint schemes. I think all of the motorized items have can motors. I think there are some nice pieces, but I am not planning to purchase any.

The main target market for postwar remakes is an age demographic (say 65+) who are not in their prime earning years, and likely have most of what they would like.  Perhaps that has influenced sales and plans.  There's plenty of real functioning postwar and postwar remakes by Lionel and others out there on the secondary market, as has been stated.  The current catalog has a bunch of postwar like equipment and accessories, so I don't see that Lionel has in any way abandoned customers who like this sort of product.

I also have not experienced or heard of many problems with LionChief or LionChief Plus

locos, so I'm mystified at that remark as well.

RE: The sales, or lack of, for the Conventional Classics I think we're missing a point that was made up above. See Goody's post where he mentions -- correctly -- that the CC "program" was always intended to sunset after 3 years. (I also remember the letter from J. Calabrese in the catalog announcing these). So, I guess saying they "didn't sell" really isn't the answer. Was always intended to have a finite life span. 

Sounds like user abuse, what do you think? They are being purchased by a lot of new or returning hobbyists.

LOL! So true on all of your points.

The good news is that even if they haven't made a CC remake that you wanted you can always enjoy the hunt for the original. I always get more enjoyment and excitement out of searching down the items as opposed to just having them fall into my lap.

For me, it always seems that an item I want that hasn't been made in years eventually gets reissued by all of the manufacturers. 

Hang in there folks....we all need something to live for, maybe this is it! Keep the faith!

I know many here are quite fond of postwar items, but it seems here in my area that postwar stuff is on the decline. The owner of my LHS told me last week they were thinking about starting to try and get rid of their postwar items on ebay. He said they can't give it away in the store and haven't sold any in months.  

Original post war items are my  main and only interest, really, but like to look at the total market. I think the repros got caught in a squeeze between the new, high tech stuff and the old originals. Still a lot around and the market can only absorb so much. The mfrs. might be waiting for more demand for the products They can store the dies and make other things.

I said it before, mark my words.  With the advent of LionChief to satisfy the tech savvy, low budget crowd, conventional control is on it's way out at Lionel.  Give it 5 years before they nail the coffin shut.

Bruce

No difference at the LHS up here too.  Ten decent PW engine offerings only moved recently because they redesigned the shop interior...otherwise, they'd still be where they sat for the last 2 years.

brianel mentioned the focus is now on LC & LC+ products...I did not introduce it with my post...And here's one of yours

https://ogrforum.com/t...lionchief-polar-berk

And so it goes...

https://ogrforum.com/topic/lionchief-no-run

https://ogrforum.com/t...f-alien-recovery-set

https://ogrforum.com/t...one-else-seeing-this

https://ogrforum.com/t...3-recalled-by-lionel

https://ogrforum.com/t...playing-on-my-layout

https://ogrforum.com/t...onchief-sounds-issue

https://ogrforum.com/t...fault-but-just-sorta

https://ogrforum.com/t...s-let-me-know-please

https://ogrforum.com/t...unning-gear-problems

http://www.amazon.com/Lionel-P...tar&pageNumber=1

Jeff Davis

I DON'T THINK SO, NOT EVEN 50 YEARS. Conventional will be around long after we're gone.

I think the largest factor is the declining number of customers along with an abundance of product that is out there. There are many times that I see on an online auction or at a train meet this stuff still sealed in the box...and not just one vendor but several. That is likely the biggest reason. If it does not sell it will not be made.

I just bought a set of "Lionel Lines" silver 2400-series CC passenger cars on eBay.  They look great behind my PWCS New Haven electric, and any of my original Post War steamers.  AND I didn't have to pay "collector" prices!

Jon

I will give up my conventional transformer control only when they pry my cold, dead fingers from the control lever.

quote:

I know many here are quite fond of postwar items, but it seems here in my area that postwar stuff is on the decline. The owner of my LHS told me last week they were thinking about starting to try and get rid of their postwar items on ebay. He said they can't give it away in the store and haven't sold any in months. 

Interest in postwar certainly can vary by area.

How is your Local Hobby Shop's prices? - maybe he is asking too much money.

I am reminded of a shop I used to visit in Buffalo during the years when postwar prices were steadily rising. The owner's prices were high, but eventually the market would catch up to him. Then he'd raise all his prices. I'd manage to buy some stuff from him, but not much.

I would guess that Lionel will iron out the issues, they don't want the stuff coming back to them as much as the folks that bought the product.

.000065% of forum membership, even less of units sold. Statistically meaningless. So, what's your point? That only quantifies your inference as having a high smell factor.

I tend to agree, just as cars with ABS and traction control have ways to turn it off.  It costs a manufacturers next to nothing to provide a conventional option and it carries on a legacy (small "L", guys, not capitalized here) operating method that traditionalists and those diagnosing running problems like.  I expect toy trains to be able to run conventionally for decades to come.

That said, I can see the demise of locos that are only conventional: for example Lionel might decide to sell only LC and LC+ in its starter sets and lower end locos, and its upper end locos might come with a switch to run conventionally, LC+, or Legacy-TMCC, etc. 

Further, probably almost no one will run conventionally even though they can, just as o one drives their car without ABS and traction control on now.  And when you try, the loco might not run that well conventionally.  Just as with cars.  I have an italian sports car that is close to dangerous (no, frankly, it is downright dangerous) with ABS and traction control off: I did it one time in the past five years, just to see what it was like, and never went back.  I imagine toy trains will be like that in twenty years if not ten.

For the electric train companies they have an issue of limited production hours from the manufactures. They are not going to use production hours on product that does not have high sales. Supposedly there was a reduction in China of train manufactures over the past couple years which results in less manufacturing hours.

I have a certain comfort level with mechanical devices, not so much with electronics so I am happy with conventional.  The old timers ran steam engines with a really crude control system for many years so can we. It isn't a me against them thing, I have always been more in to mechanical. I wouldn't have a car with traction control, I want to be able to feel the road. My Z28 had great brakes and suspension with manual steering.

My opinion on the CC and Conventional type equipment is that the market has reached the saturation point. Look at the downsized O gauge Williams offering for 2015. That probably says something too.

 I believe that LioneChief +engines  will take the place of the CC's. It uses a very simple easy to use remote, its comparably priced, and if you want to run conventional you just throw the switch on the engine. There is also still quite a bit of CC and earlier Williams stuff on the market to satisfy the diehard conventional operator so everyone can still have it their way.  

I have just about all the Postwar Celebration Series and Conventional Classics and love them all. Its nice running "newer" postwar with Railsounds and TMCC. I have many original postwar items, along with collector line MPC, but something about postwar with railsounds and TMCC is great. I have never had any issues with any items, including the Conventional Classics. Never had any problems with opening the box and having things broken or not working like all the new stuff today. Plust it was more affordable for the average collector. 

There are still some out there that want the classics whether it be command control or conventional. Lionel is missing the mark, discontinuing this series I believe. Many I talk to online and at shows all share my feelings, and wish they would bring it back, even its just one set a year. Same goes for the Flyer guys, they wish FLYONEL would start a postwar celebration series for flyer...Its not dead yet.

All this newer scale stuff, is just not Lionel to me. They can keep their 1500 dollar  Chinese engines that don't work out of the box, only to lose its value in a year or 2.

Conventional operation isn't going anywhere yet.

 Not yet, not soon, but it might.

  I think its likely if projections somehow demanded a change by all, or strong enough to withstand any loss of customer base.

 I can remember not long ago some pooh pooh-ing of the idea of PW frame & PM stuff ever ceasing.

 As Pappy & Lee said, they will remain compatible for years.

But I say they want a new remote in your hand too, and it will be required at some point.

 Then, that will have to be updated every few years. Or regular software charges paid.

  Cheaper because you run conventional? Nope that's about done. They need everyone to pay for electronics, even if you don't use it. Later they will drop the conventional ability for direction (and horn). Oh wait. The LCs is like that already isn't it.  But your new system will run backwards compatible to tmcc for a long to come.

Nope not disposable enough.   

 The sale of Willliams said it all, bye bye PW. But it has to be done gradually. Not like "New Coke".

 Bachmann has begun a new direction for Williams as well. Its already not a simple & cheap mindset behind Williams new stuff any longer.

 RMT looks better every day 

Just to clarify, I am in no way anti-conventional.  I understand and promote the benefits of conventional control...it's great fun!

What LC and LC+ has done is effectively updated Lionel's ability to increase their profit margin, especially on starter sets.

Gone is the need to include a bulky, expensive transformer when a simple, albeit slightly over sized, yet less expensive fixed voltage wall wort is all that's required.

LC sets were initially and still are less expensive than comparable conventional control offerings from Lionel.  LC+ is the gap filler between starter sets and Legacy.  That's simple business practice to entice buyers from all economic ranges ...see car manufacturers.

I seriously doubt, once past the introduction stage, Lionel spends any more for LC or LC+ electronics than they do for an electronic reverse unit....how many of you remember the electro-mechnical E unit?. It's just common sense these days that the can motor is king.  It's all about dragging Lionel into the 21st century

Please take these observations as fact,  not having been blurred with nostalgic emotion.  AFAIC conventional control as a viable product is dead.

Bruce