@Madockawando posted:And that is another risk. The truth is we will be fine with the Base3.
We? You have a mouse in your pocket?
@gunrunnerjohn posted:We? You have a mouse in your pocket?
Mouse? Speak for yourself. "We" are everyone who is pre-ordering the Base-3. And from the number of people who have spoken up on the threads, "We" are going to make the Base-3 a hit for Lionel. And yes, "We" will be fine.
Now go and feed your mouse some cheese.
@H1000 posted:And so begins the fleecing of (desperate) Lionel customers.... 😬.
Ignorance is bliss, isn't it?
No one's getting fleeced. Panic is not a rational response to the current situation, then again it never is for any situation.
Mike
@Madockawando posted:Mouse? Speak for yourself. "We" are everyone who is pre-ordering the Base-3. And from the number of people who have spoken up on the threads, "We" are going to make the Base-3 a hit for Lionel. And yes, "We" will be fine.
Now go and feed your mouse some cheese.
Please stop the incessant pushing. We'd hate to have the moderator shut down this thread like he did for the thread called "New Lionel Base 3" (yesterday).
We're tired of losing important posts.
Mike
It begs the question, why would anyone pre order an item that is not built to order and likely to remain the catalog for many years? At best you might receive it two days before anyone who waited until they arrived on the dealers shelves or better yet wait to find out if they actually work. There’s a concept.
Pete
@Norton posted:It begs the question, why would anyone pre order an item that is not built to order and likely to remain the catalog for many years? At best you might receive it two days before anyone who waited until they arrived on the dealers shelves or better yet wait to find out if they actually work. There’s a concept.
Pete
Very true Pete, it's not like these aren't going to be available for a really long time. I also suspect several rather quick firmware updates will take place before they're truly stable. 
@Mellow Hudson Mike posted:Please stop the incessant pushing. We'd hate to have the moderator shut down this thread like he did for the thread called "New Lionel Base 3" (yesterday).
We're tired of losing important posts.
Mike
I’m sorry, but you need to back track up the thread a bit. I was responding to an unprovoked and snide remark from gunrunnerjohn.
I’m not the cause of any thread being shut down. I have only expressed my enthusiasm for Lionel’s catalog and my bullish confidence in the health of the hobby. I’m not the one posting negative comments about Lionel’s pricing, the remotes, the colors, the couplers, etc.
So yes, I’m excited about the Catalog, I’m excited about the possibilities of the Base-3 and I am confident in the direction of the hobby as whole. Why would that be an issue?
@Norton posted:It begs the question, why would anyone pre order an item that is not built to order and likely to remain the catalog for many years? At best you might receive it two days before anyone who waited until they arrived on the dealers shelves or better yet wait to find out if they actually work. There’s a concept.
Pete
Speaking for myself, I ordered mine directly from the Lionel Store. Yes, you do pay full MSRP but that is offset that by ordering direct from Lionel you get the item as soon as it arrives at Lionel. So when Lionel ships it to the dealers, they are shipping it to you.
So, I want to be an early adapter and instal that one wire hook up to my layout as a soon as possible!😃
@Mellow Hudson Mike posted:Ignorance is bliss, isn't it?
No one's getting fleeced. Panic is not a rational response to the current situation, then again it never is for any situation.
Mike
Selling cab2 remotes for 3 to 6 times above MSRP is bliss. Fleecing, profiteering, taking advantage of a bad decision by Lionel, call it what you want.
@H1000 posted:Selling cab2 remotes for 3 to 6 times above MSRP is bliss. Fleecing, profiteering, taking advantage of a bad decision by Lionel, call it what you want.
Well, the buyers are fleecing themselves, it's a voluntary act.
@gunrunnerjohn posted:Well, the buyers are fleecing themselves, it's a voluntary act.
Agreed!
@H1000 posted:Selling cab2 remotes for 3 to 6 times above MSRP is bliss. Fleecing, profiteering, taking advantage of a bad decision by Lionel, call it what you want.
ROTFLl fleecing??? Not hardly.
No fleecing going on at an auction when the buyer sets the price.
Here's an example of fleecing though:
Lionel selling a base without a remote for $500 when the previous remote and base giving you full access to Legacy features was $300.
Want more fleecing?
You can add a remote for an extra $150 but the added remote still won't get you the full legacy features of the old remote base combo.
All that after you spend $2000 on a loco to get features you can't access with the "new" $600 remote base combo
Now that's fleecing.
@RickO posted:ROTFLl fleecing??? Not hardly.
No fleecing going on at an auction when the buyer sets the price.
Here's an example of fleecing though:
Lionel selling a base without a remote for $500 when the previous remote and base giving you full access to Legacy features was $300.
Want more fleecing?
You can add a remote for an extra $150 but the added remote still won't get you the full legacy features of the old remote base combo.
All that after you spend $2000 on a loco to get features you can't access with the "new" $600 remote base combo
Now that's fleecing.
Lionel has just released a great new catalog and instead of celebrating a select few have to be negative. All the whining about Lionel’s prices got the “New Lionel Base-3”thread canceled yesterday. How about we don’t let that happen with this thread.
Lionel’s prices are what they are and a lot of factors go into determining those prices. If you don’t want to buy it then don’t. But stop ruining it for the rest of us with the Lionel negativity. Lionel is not “fleecing” anyone.
@RickO posted:Lionel selling a base without a remote for $500 when the previous remote and base giving you full access to Legacy features was $300.
Lionel is selling a base without a hardware remote but including a WiFi Module, a PDI power Module, a new module exclusive to the Base3 (we'll call it the universal remote module), and another exclusive module to the Base3 a PDI hub. Also you get the Cab3 app for free where as those who want to use the Cab3 app with their current Legacy setup will pay $30 for it.
Don't get me wrong, I kind of wish they would just release the "Universal Remote" as a module add-on but I get the whole parts obsolescence problem many manufactures are facing with proprietary remotes that serve one purpose. I was never a fan of the CAB2 and stuck with my TMCC CAB1 setup. Another turn off for me was that amount of modules and special wiring involved with the LCS system and I think Lionel is looking to simplify that.
The Base3 will provide access to all features to any legacy engine via the CAB3 app. The Lionel fanboys were pretty hard on MTH for not continuing the DCS remote and now those harsh comments are reserved for the CAB2. My only compliant is that Lionel should have done a "Last Call" for the 993 Expansion set. They might still, and if they do it will make them good amounts of money.
As of yesterday, the Lionel Store had the Cab 1-L available for Pre-Order, with a $15.00 discount. For the sake of simplicity, and to take advantage of the first "slow boat from China", I decided to throw caution to the wind, and place my Pre-Order.
@H1000 posted:The Base3 will provide access to all features to any legacy engine via the CAB3 app. The Lionel fanboys were pretty hard on MTH for not continuing the DCS remote and now those harsh comments are reserved for the CAB2.
I don't recall a lot of "Lionel Fanboy" gloating. I suspect many knew that the Cab2 wasn't immune to component EOL. I said many times myself that I suspected that once Lionel could no longer produce a Cab2 the App would be the most logical step.
My only compliant is that Lionel should have done a "Last Call" for the 993 Expansion set. They might still, and if they do it will make them good amounts of money.
Can't make what you can't get parts for. When was the last time you seen a B&W LCD screen on much of anything?
I would have loved to see another run but I suspect the pandemic and current component shortages forced their hand. To waste R&D time to find new components that work with an old design most likely wasn't financially sound especially when an App based control can be easily updated, and reconfigured all while someone else is making the hardware.
Both Lionel and MTH have become a victim of technology changes. Now I see in the MTH R&D therad where they are possibly making a WiFi DCS controller. I'm not sure I see the logic in going back to a hardware controller with how fast things change but I've been wrong before.
This is coming from someone that prefers a hardware remote over an app but I see the writing on the wall and know that the app is probably the best move forward. I do hope though that Lionel does make it able to be interfaced with a game controller like another poster has shown. Again someone else making the hardware.
@MartyE posted:I would have loved to see another run but I suspect the pandemic and current component shortages forced their hand. To waste R&D time to find new components that work with an old design most likely wasn't financially sound especially when an App based control can be easily updated, and reconfigured all while someone else is making the hardware.
Both Lionel and MTH have become a victim of technology changes. Now I see in the MTH R&D therad where they are possibly making a WiFi DCS controller. I'm not sure I see the logic in going back to a hardware controller with how fast things change but I've been wrong before.
This is coming from someone that prefers a hardware remote over an app but I see the writing on the wall and know that the app is probably the best move forward. I do hope though that Lionel does make it able to be interfaced with a game controller like another poster has shown. Again someone else making the hardware.
Design a new remote, spend the time, produce it and charge accordingly. Lionel would make money on it. I don't buy all the reasons we are not getting a new remote. We are getting a new Base, they spent the time and money on that. Why not a remote? It would sell, wouldn't sit on store shelves like the IVR2.
@superwarp1 posted:Design a new remote, spend the time, produce it and charge accordingly.
And after seeing all the comments about pricing on other threads... I wish they'd make a new remote but I just don't see it being feasible in cost and longevity anymore. They can add features to an App on a whim that a hardware remote can't. Lionel is also a very small company compare to the many others out their all vying for the same factory time, electronic parts, and the list goes on. Why would a factory make what I am guessing to be about 5000 remotes when they can make millions of iPhone, game controllers, etc. That's just the way I see it. I have no clue whether this is the case.
Dave has been very forth coming on some of these threads as to why. He could be telling us the company line but from where I sit and the issues we are having it seems pretty plausible. I guess if enough pitchforks and torches show up in Concord, NC maybe it will change their minds if it isn't component issues as they say but if it is there is nothing they can do short of spending a lot of money to R&D, design, and manufacturer a new remote to please what is becoming a smaller customer base.
@MartyE posted:And after seeing all the comments about pricing on other threads... I wish they'd make a new remote but I just don't see it being feasible in cost and longevity anymore. They can add features to an App on a whim that a hardware remote can't. Lionel is also a very small company compare to the many others out their all vying for the same factory time, electronic parts, and the list goes on. Why would a factory make what I am guessing to be about 5000 remotes when they can make millions of iPhone, game controllers, etc. That's just the way I see it. I have no clue whether this is the case.
Dave has been very forth coming on some of these threads as to why. He could be telling us the company line but from where I sit and the issues we are having it seems pretty plausible. I guess if enough pitchforks and torches show up in Concord, NC maybe it will change their minds if it isn't component issues as they say but if it is there is nothing they can do short of spending a lot of money to R&D, design, and manufacturer a new remote to please what is becoming a smaller customer base.
Well, we'll agree to disagree on this one.
@superwarp1 posted:Well, we'll agree to disagree on this one.
Yep! Good discussions.
Ironically, over on the MTH R&D thread. MTH has announced its designing a new DCS handheld for those who prefer the more tactile feel of a remote.
"How about an updated Wi-Fi DCS remote for those of you that prefer the dedicated tactile hand-held? It will be compatible with the existing WIU, the new WTIU, and the WZ4K"
Granted ,Lionel has the cab1L, but I'm guessing the " new" Dcs remote will have full access to Dcs features.
To repeat myself. There was a time when the cab 1 was discontinued due to obsolescence, only to reappear after hobbyists complained, albeit with Legacy capability.
First win the victory, then do the dance :-).
@MartyE posted:Lionel is also a very small company compare to the many others out their all vying for the same factory time, electronic parts, and the list goes on. Why would a factory make what I am guessing to be about 5000 remotes when they can make millions of iPhone, game controllers, etc. That's just the way I see it. I have no clue whether this is the case.
Why would a factory make what I am guessing to be about 5000 locomotives when they can make millions of iPhone, game controllers, etc.?
Mike
@RickO posted:Ironically, over on the MTH R&D thread. MTH has announced its designing a new DCS handheld for those who prefer the more tactile feel of a remote.
Granted ,Lionel has the cab1L, but I'm guessing the " new" Dcs remote will have full access to Dcs features.
To repeat myself. There was a time when the cab 1 was discontinued due to obsolescence, only to reappear after hobbyists complained, albeit with Legacy capability.
@Mellow Hudson Mike posted:Why would a factory make what I am guessing to be about 5000 locomotives when they can make millions of iPhone, game controllers, etc.?
Mike
All valid points that I don't have the answer to. Get out the pitch forks and torches and the Cab3 hardware remote may materialize.
As for the engines, specialized production? IDK that answer. Only the folks at Lionel know for sure.
@MartyE posted:All valid points that I don't have the answer to. Get out the pitch forks and torches and the Cab3 hardware remote may materialize.
As for the engines, specialized production? IDK that answer. Only the folks at Lionel know for sure.
Before I grab my pitchfork, I want to try the CAB-3 app. One request though, have it available on my Amazon Kindle Fire. It’s ten inches wide and I would feel much better running the app on that then my phone.
@Mellow Hudson Mike posted:Why would a factory make what I am guessing to be about 5000 locomotives when they can make millions of iPhone, game controllers, etc.?
Mike
Smaller factory, less talent? I read somewhere that apple employs something rediculous like 100,000 employees just to manufacture the ipad.
Some could argue this is why QC issues are fairly common in this hobby. Its been said. Lionel has to pick from the contractors on the "bottom of the list" because of the low production numbers.
@MartyE posted:I would have loved to see another run but I suspect the pandemic and current component shortages forced their hand. To waste R&D time to find new components that work with an old design most likely wasn't financially sound especially when an App based control can be easily updated, and reconfigured all while someone else is making the hardware.
Both Lionel and MTH have become a victim of technology changes. Now I see in the MTH R&D therad where they are possibly making a WiFi DCS controller. I'm not sure I see the logic in going back to a hardware controller with how fast things change but I've been wrong before.
This is coming from someone that prefers a hardware remote over an app but I see the writing on the wall and know that the app is probably the best move forward. I do hope though that Lionel does make it able to be interfaced with a game controller like another poster has shown. Again someone else making the hardware.
MTH did redesigned and did another run on their remote. MTH made so many that they are just laying around on dealer shelves collecting dust. My LHS ordered a couple dozen DCS remotes thinking they would sell fast and turn a quick profit, but he still sits with most of them in stock.
Interfacing to a game controller is the best way forward and solves most if not all of these dang "Parts Obsolesce" problems. They will never stop making phones and tablet and there 100's of manufactures who make 100's of different styles of game pad controllers to suite anyone's custom preference. Why should we all be stuck with Lionel & MTHs "One Size Fits Most" remotes. Now folks can choose the size of the screen they want, the button controller that feels best in their hands and hopefully MTH & Lionel will make the apps more customizable so that we can set them up the way we want them with buttons and commands on the screens where we want them according to how we run our railroad.
Personally, The CAB3 app isn't even on the stores yet and I already see problems with the visual interface from the screen shots in the catalog. A sliding quillable whistle that is located right next to a sliding speed selector??? I sense problems here. The buttons are packed in there so tight, put some of the lesser used icons on sub screens and clean up the interface. Until the release date of the CAB3 App, the MTH DCS App is the best way to run Legacy engines with an app on your phone or tablet.
That Game Controller interface with the app was a product of my work:
@Madockawando posted:Before I grab my pitchfork, I want to try the CAB-3 app. One request though, have it available on my Amazon Kindle Fire. It’s ten inches wide and I would feel much better running the app on that then my phone.
I'll have go back to where it was said but the tablet app version is coming later. Usually amazon tablets can be setup to run Google Play services and you should be able to just use the Google Play store to get the new app.
@H1000 posted:Personally, The CAB3 app isn't even on the stores yet and I already see problems with the visual interface from the screen shots in the catalog. A sliding quillable whistle that is located right next to a sliding speed selector??? I sense problems here. The buttons are packed in there so tight, put some of the lesser used icons on sub screens and clean up the interface.
Sounds like they could use a well thought out handheld.
@RickO posted:Sounds like they could use a well thought out handheld.
Well thought out for who? What happens if they start putting buttons and controls where you don't want them or it's awkward for people with smaller hands to hold the device? We have a club member who has bad arthritis and holding any of the those hardware remotes was very hard to do let alone pushing the buttons. The first time and only way he can experience command control is with a large screen tablet and a weighted stylus pen. I'm working with him to find a game pad controller that he feels comfortable with to hold in his hands and use the app remote program shown above. We are even considering using gesture controls that would be interpreted by a Nintendo Wii controller.
@Madockawando posted:I’m not the cause of any thread being shut down. I have only expressed my enthusiasm for Lionel’s catalog and my bullish confidence in the health of the hobby. I’m not the one posting negative comments about Lionel’s pricing, the remotes, the colors, the couplers, etc.
Why should critiquing a product offered in an open market cause a thread to get shut down? Especially when the critiques are valid! Couplers should WORK. Colors should be CORRECT.
@H1000 posted:We have a club member who has bad arthritis and holding any of the those hardware remotes was very hard to do let alone pushing the buttons. The first time and only way he can experience command control is with a large screen tablet and a weighted stylus pen. I'm working with him to find a game pad controller that he feels comfortable with to hold in his hands and use the app remote program shown above.
Its great that your there helping him, and I'm glad the app makes it possible.
It sounds like we all have (or are getting) what we want/need to run trains. No hard feelings, just a little tongue -in -cheek sparring thus the two winks.
On a side note. As you may already know. The basis for the "big red knob" on the TMCC /Legacy handheld came from Neil Youngs input on the design so his son with Cerebral Palsy would to be able to operate it. So Lionel hasn't been totally ignorant to those with special needs or health issues.
It looks like the app gives even wider consideration to those with physical limitations.
@RickO posted:Its great that your there helping him, and I'm glad the app makes it possible.
It sounds like we all have (or are getting) what we want/need to run trains. No hard feelings, just a little tongue -in -cheek sparring thus the two winks.
On a side note. As you may already know. The basis for the "big red knob" on the TMCC /Legacy handheld came from Neil Youngs input on the design so his son with Cerebral Palsy would to be able to operate it. So Lionel hasn't been totally ignorant to those with special needs or health issues.
It looks like the app gives even wider consideration to those with physical limitations.
And Lionel/Neil also did the "Big Red Button" that would repeat the last command issued when pressed. Those buttons were actually an outsourced product (still available today) that had a large transparent Lionel "L" sticker placed on them. I want to say that now the retail price is like $250 or so and Lionel offered it for $42 way back when. I don't think they made any money on those but I don't think that was their intent either, they wanted everyone to be able to enjoy the hobby.
@rplst8 posted:Why should critiquing a product offered in an open market cause a thread to get shut down? Especially when the critiques are valid! Couplers should WORK. Colors should be CORRECT.
Your comment is precisely why I brought up the shut down in the first place.
The thread in question had many, many critiques, each of which deserved to see the light of day, and be recorded for future discussion.
Unfortunately several individuals, who shall remain nameless, got into a long-lasting, and very emotional not-based-on-facts, argument that forced the moderator to take out the thread.
I was simply asking everyone not to let it happen here, because we've already lost too many important posts in a similar fashion.
Mike
I work in an early childhood center. Every xmas I do a huge Polar Express layout.....
I have the red button, my therapists call it a Big Mac Switch. The button plugs into the port at the top of the CAB2. I posted a picture below and I cropped out the child and my staff. Many of my students have significant developmental delays, similar to Neil Young's son. But with the button they can control the engine and they LOVE it! Pressing the button repeats the last command provided to the CAB2. Not surprisingly blowing the whistle is EVERY STUDENT'S FAVORITE command. The button is pressure sensitive so they can quil the whistle. It is fun but it also teaches them cause and effect. I will keep a CAB2 as long as I can because the switch is so wonderful. I don't know how, but I hope Lionel can make a bluetooth switch/button with which the app would communicate. I do believe it is important to make controlling future Lionel trains accessible to all users!
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That's a nice setup!! I like the idea about a Bluetooth Big Red button. In fact it could be a few buttons, How about one that switches between two locomotives, another one the blows the horn/whistle on the selected engine and yet another one that rings the bell on the selected engine. That's an awesome idea!
@rplst8 posted:Why should critiquing a product offered in an open market cause a thread to get shut down? Especially when the critiques are valid! Couplers should WORK. Colors should be CORRECT.
The thread was shut down, as per the OGR monitor, because of repetitive “whining” about Lionel’s prices.
@RickO posted:Smaller factory, less talent? I read somewhere that apple employs something rediculous like 100,000 employees just to manufacture the ipad.
Some could argue this is why QC issues are fairly common in this hobby. Its been said. Lionel has to pick from the contractors on the "bottom of the list" because of the low production numbers.
I feel like a factory could make trains in all scales and it would allow them to be pretty large.
I don't know a lot about the RC car market, but I would think the economics are somewhat comparable. You can by a 1/8 scale RC car for about $450 that INCLUDES a custom remote that operates at 2.4GHz. Why is this so hard with trains?
@rplst8 posted:I feel like a factory could make trains in all scales and it would allow them to be pretty large.
Your dead on with that. There are videos showing Lionel trains being manufacturered in a factory along with other scales.
I don't know a lot about the RC car market, but I would think the economics are somewhat comparable. You can by a 1/8 scale RC car for about $450 that INCLUDES a custom remote that operates at 2.4GHz. Why is this so hard with trains?I think in general the RC car hobby is MUCH larger than model trains. I don't have specific numbers of course, but if you've ever gone to an RC show, it dwarfs most train shows.
Having said all of that. Even with all of the scales combined. EVERYONE still wants a cell phone. Train enthusiasts are still a fraction of the population.
@rplst8 posted:I feel like a factory could make trains in all scales and it would allow them to be pretty large.
I don't know a lot about the RC car market, but I would think the economics are somewhat comparable. You can by a 1/8 scale RC car for about $450 that INCLUDES a custom remote that operates at 2.4GHz. Why is this so hard with trains?
Apple doesn't employ 100,000 people to make the Ipad and the Iphone, that work is done for them by Foxcon (Taiwanese company that does its work in China), they employ a lot of people, but it isn't just the iphone and ipad, they build for a lot of people, they are a contract manufacturer, the way Sanda Kan was with trains.
RC cars are more of a mass market item then O gauge trains are, and the components in that market are standard, the batteries, servos, etc. Also relatively simply, you have a throttle, and steering, a relatively simple RC setup . There are remote control systems like that, some of the basic g gauge battery powered sets have a remote that is simple for example. The command control used in 3 rail is a lot more complex, in other words, and because it is proprietary a lot of what they use in that controller is custom, the chip sets that are involved, so it is more expensive. Plus with the size of the market, that means higher prices, too.
